Summer School

[alms24sebring]

Being a teacher does have perks. You're off all the holidays including stupid ones, have Winter and Spring breaks, snow days (snow days are epic and far too frequent here) and of course the whole entire Summer off. But still $30k or less is not worth it. I wouldnt wanna be a teacher for how much they spend to make so little.

[Jesda]

Teachers get pretty outstanding healthcare and retirement benefits, not to mention tenure for the ones who've been at it for long enough. Then there's the discounts (mortgage rates, car loans, tuition discounts, etc) and summer jobs. When you add it up, public school teachers make more than many, even if it's not in the form of direct compensation.

Of course, it varies by district and the health of the local tax base.

[PoorManQ45]

Being a teacher does have perks. You're off all the holidays including stupid ones, have Winter and Spring breaks, snow days (snow days are epic and far too frequent here) and of course the whole entire Summer off. But still $30k or less is not worth it. I wouldnt wanna be a teacher for how much they spend to make so little.

The average teacher's salary in FL is ~$43k. That's ~$11k higher than the income average of the rest of the state.

Factor in that they're working 3/4 of the year and they're doing pretty awesome down here.

[audtatious]

Still waiting to see where higher teacher compensation has resulted in overall better scores from children

The problem is the school boards and unions for almost everything.

[bigbadberry3]

To the people that are talking about compensation, have you forgotten that teachers work ~8~9 months, not a full 12 like everyone else?

We do summer classes, workshops, rework material, attend conferences. Please

[bigbadberry3]

Teachers get pretty outstanding healthcare and retirement benefits, not to mention tenure for the ones who've been at it for long enough. Then there's the discounts (mortgage rates, car loans, tuition discounts, etc) and summer jobs. When you add it up, public school teachers make more than many, even if it's not in the form of direct compensation.

Of course, it varies by district and the health of the local tax base.

Tenure is not as unbreakable as the media portrays it but yes we do get discounts.

Also, our pension funds are quite often raided.

[bigbadberry3]

Still waiting to see where higher teacher compensation has resulted in overall better scores from children

The problem is the school boards and unions for almost everything.

So would you pay higher scoring teachers more than lower scoring teachers?

And no, unions don't cause these problems.

[nissangirl74]

Question: does anyone have a telescope? If so, could you recommend a good one for beginners? Preferably one that is easily portable.

[alms24sebring]

Easily portable you want a reflector. They are smaller and lighter for relatively the same stargaze strength as the classic long tubed refractor, but maybe not as cheap. They rent them if you can google a telescope store near you. They do exist..

[MinisterofDOOM]

Analog clocks are so passe. Antiquated technology will phase out as everything naturally does when something better proceeds it.

I can't really agree there. My view of analog vs digital clocks is the same as analog vs digital gauges in a car (or anywhere else, really): visual representation is more than just a single-figure reading. Clocks give a visual spacial representation of time, which I'd bet good money makes it quicker and easier for the brain to register information from. Just like digital gauges. Yes, I know how 30mph and 60mph relate mathematically, but the physical display of the needle sweeping around the dial is far more informative than scrolling digits. Similarly, visually breaking up the hour into quarters and twelvths makes computing time simpler. When I think of 15 minutes, I picture a quarter-slice of clock dial, even if I'm not looking at a clock.

My only beef with analog clocks is that I think in military time, and they can't display that way without getting weird.

[PoorManQ45]

To the people that are talking about compensation, have you forgotten that teachers work ~8~9 months, not a full 12 like everyone else?

We do summer classes, workshops, rework material, attend conferences. Please

Don't give me that BS.

My aunt is a teacher in WI. She spends a few days of her vacation preparing. The rest of the time she was relaxing.

[audtatious]

So would you pay higher scoring teachers more than lower scoring teachers?

That's a firm "maybe". Most of the teachers I speak with feel their hands are tied via rules and regulations on how they can actually teach and "get through" to the kids. Kids get away with being so much more disruptive today it's even more difficult. Unless the environment itself is adjusted then even the best teachers are going to continue failing. Simple compensation is not the main issue.

And no, unions don't cause these problems.

Depends on the location and issue. In general I believe unions cause more issues than they supposedly fix. That's my opinion tho.

[audtatious]

Don't give me that BS.

My aunt is a teacher in WI. She spends a few days of her vacation preparing. The rest of the time she was relaxing.

Some teachers do that, some give their time to help students or make money on the side tutoring and such.

[bigbadberry3]

Don't give me that BS.

My aunt is a teacher in WI. She spends a few days of her vacation preparing. The rest of the time she was relaxing.

Not attempting to get personal but maybe your aunt should do some more summer work. Even the best teachers understand that they must continually work at improving ......

Well for my summer "break" I get to attend Spanish 101 at the local college, 10 hours of curriculum building (that's only the time on the paper but realistically will take longer), begin to prepare an entire course curriculum, finish a website for my current class, in addition to at least one conference. I would be going to my soccer athletes games but still am unsure of player contact rules.

Teachers do work over the summer, just not in front of a classroom.

[PoorManQ45]

Some teachers do that, some give their time to help students or make money on the side tutoring and such.

That makes sense.

Suckers...

[bigbadberry3]

So would you pay higher scoring teachers more than lower scoring teachers?

That's a firm "maybe". Most of the teachers I speak with feel their hands are tied via rules and regulations on how they can actually teach and "get through" to the kids. Kids get away with being so much more disruptive today it's even more difficult. Unless the environment itself is adjusted then even the best teachers are going to continue failing. Simple compensation is not the main issue.

Now this may seem very out of place from a teacher but I think the classroom environment needs to be adjusted so that students are allowed to fail. I'm sorry but not all Jimmys are going to be nuclear engineers and pushing them through is doing no help to anyone.

[MinisterofDOOM]

So would you pay higher scoring teachers more than lower scoring teachers?

Now this may seem very out of place from a teacher but I think the classroom environment needs to be adjusted so that students are allowed to fail. I'm sorry but not all Jimmys are going to be nuclear engineers and pushing them through is doing no help to anyone.

The problem with BOTH of these ideas is that they are both dependent upon the misconception that students' scores in school have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with either:
A) The quality of learning being provided for the student
B) The student's capability of succeeding in the real world

The fact is the 3 are ENTIRELY UNRELATED. Society's determination to link the 3 is the core problem with the public education system. I absolutely understand the need to quantify things. But some things simply don't conform to the oversimplified 2-dimensional still-photographic state of numbers on a spreadsheet. When you focus on scores, you end up "teaching to test" as Bex said in the OP. This is a foolish, self-destructive, purposeless, oroborous of educational masturbatlon. You shift the goal from learning to become the teaching itself.

Here are 3 facts:
Some people are geniuses. They just "get stuff."
Some people are great teachers. They understand how to teach in a fundamental way that makes learning more effective for their students.
Some people score well on tests and under structured grading systems.

And a fourth: it's entirely possible for these 3 types of people to exist without ever encountering each other. Because they have NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER. The genius doesn't NEED the effective teacher to understand. This is not to say he won't benefit from learning with that teacher. But it's not necessary for the genius to be a genius. And the great teacher doesn't CAUSE average students to become geniuses, though she may very well improve their understanding of her particular topic. Nor will the great teacher necessarily improve scores or grades among her students. And a student doesn't have to be a genius to test well, or get good grades. Likewise the high-scoring student doesn't necessarily need a particularly adept teacher to achieve those scores.

They are UNRELATED.

They must not be treated otherwise.

Geniuses are geniuses for two reasons (by my definition anyway):
1: They have a capacity for learning. They are good at LEARNING HOW TO LEARN.
2: They seek knowledge OF THEIR OWN ACCORD.
Both of these things actually PRECLUDE THE NEED FOR SUPERIOR SCHOOLING. So, in effect, not only is the nature of the genius NOT dependent upon that person's schooling; it is actually IN DEFIANCE OF IT. It does not matter WHAT public education the genius receives. The genius's capacity will make more of less, and will fill in the gaps wherever they may exist.

Oftentimes people who test well or get good grades have very little capacity of actual UNDERSTANDING and LEARNING. They simply have a superior capacity for rote memorization and "studying" in the nature of preparing for an exam. Take Aspergers or the people once known as "idiot savants." These people do not learn well at all. They don't even really understand well. They excel at accumulating data and even processing that data, but they generally don't understand what the data means, how it works, or even the nature of their own methods of processing it. I know many people who can score very high on a test for a subject, and then immediately turn around and completely fail to practice or demonstrate the knowledge covered by the test in a practical setting. I see it often in my job. Test scores cannot be directly linked to practical capability OR learning.

And the teaching capacity of a teacher is very strictly limited by two key things (in addition to a number of other things, obviously):
1: The learning capability of the student
2: The effectiveness of teaching materials (which includes the classroom environment itself)

I've observed exceptional teachers fail to teach anything to particular students because those students are uninterested in learning, are incabable of learning, or are not ideally suited to learning from the teaching materials in use.
And I've observed terrible teachers succeeding masterfully at teaching difficult concepts to particular students because those students are interested in learning, are skilled at learning, or are especially susceptible to learning based on the materials in use.

There are some very simple ways to improve public education, improve genuine learning among students, and improve the perceived success of "education" to the public:
1: Stop focusing on measured performance
2: Stop holding back those with a capacity for learning by treating them the same as people without (this is not a slight against the latter group...simply a recognition that the two are different)
3: Stop impairing the ability of teachers by making the teaching itself the end rather than the means

Once these 3 things happen, "education" will become LEARNING, and everything will change.

[audtatious]

Now this may seem very out of place from a teacher but I think the classroom environment needs to be adjusted so that students are allowed to fail. I'm sorry but not all Jimmys are going to be nuclear engineers and pushing them through is doing no help to anyone.

I agree with this as well. Too many "participation awards" handed out just for showing up and not putting forth effort.

Again, with the amount and number of issues, simply increase in teacher compensation will do nothing.

[zacmil]

To the people that are talking about compensation, have you forgotten that teachers work ~8~9 months, not a full 12 like everyone else?

We do summer classes, workshops, rework material, attend conferences. Please

My mother is a former English teacher and is currently a guidance counselor. Usually, she gets about a month off during the summer. Just because classes aren't in session doesn't mean teachers (and other school personnel) aren't working.

Teachers get pretty outstanding healthcare and retirement benefits, not to mention tenure for the ones who've been at it for long enough. Then there's the discounts (mortgage rates, car loans, tuition discounts, etc) and summer jobs. When you add it up, public school teachers make more than many, even if it's not in the form of direct compensation.

Of course, it varies by district and the health of the local tax base.

This varies from state to state. In Kentucky, teacher retirement is excellent, but healthcare benefits are nothing more than acceptable. As far as I know, there are no special mortgage rates, tuition discounts, or the like available to teachers. That's not to say that there aren't perks to teaching--just that teachers, as a whole, aren't always as well off as we would like to assume.

Still waiting to see where higher teacher compensation has resulted in overall better scores from children

My whole point behind saying that was that if we were to make the position more desirable, it should, logically, attract more qualified candidates who would, in turn, be more likely to successfully communicate material to students. Is there a flaw in this logic?

The problem is the school boards and unions for almost everything.

If you live in Kentucky, this is FAR from being a problem. Here, it's actually illegal for teachers to strike.

Now this may seem very out of place from a teacher but I think the classroom environment needs to be adjusted so that students are allowed to fail. I'm sorry but not all Jimmys are going to be nuclear engineers and pushing them through is doing no help to anyone.

YES!

I wouldn't want to refuse help to a student who legitimately needed it--as I'm sure that you, as a teacher, wouldn't either--but I do think that we need to stop tailoring our educational system to those at the very bottom. We should be putting more effort into helping those students who, as terrible as it sounds, have the most potential to do something significant with their lives.

[MinisterofDOOM]

In honor of this thread:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esp_hOlFqiM[/youtube]

Is there a flaw in this logic?

Not in the logic, but in the approach. See my previous post.

[Razi]

Question: does anyone have a telescope? If so, could you recommend a good one for beginners? Preferably one that is easily portable.

We had a really cruddy one when I was a kid, you could see the moon but that was about it, but it was still pretty awesome to me.
I think the local CVS and Walgreens here sell a similar one for cheap.

If you want something more powerful you might need to poke around some telescope forums and see which ones are good for starters.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Question: does anyone have a telescope? If so, could you recommend a good one for beginners? Preferably one that is easily portable.

Meade.

My dad has an old Meade EXT-90. It's a great little 'scope and has treated us well.

Meade's reflector telescopes are compact and relatively affordable, with lots of add-ons if you decide to take the hobby futher.

[zacmil]

Is there a flaw in this logic?

Not in the logic, but in the approach. See my previous post.

I can definitely agree with a lot of what you said. Some people do just "get it" and others are just good at taking tests. I would argue, however, that a good teacher can make a significant difference in the educational development of a person you define as a genius. I, for instance, had an English teacher in high school who I would argue was the best teacher I've ever had. He constantly challenged me to push my boundaries, and really helped me develop, not just as a writer, but as a student in general. In my opinion, the best kind of teacher creates a situation in which the student can discover the material being taught. Once the student engages in the "learning" the teacher's job should be to offer support--so the student doesn't develop some sort of misconception--and reinforcement.

It was not my intention to present increasing teacher compensation as a cure-all for our country's educational woes. There are, definitely, plenty of shades of grey involved. I suppose my position is that, at best, increasing compensation would improve learning--whether real or perceived--and, at worst, it would be giving a nice, big societal pat on the back to a group of people who are often under-appreciated.

[alms24sebring]

Now this may seem very out of place from a teacher but I think the classroom environment needs to be adjusted so that students are allowed to fail. I'm sorry but not all Jimmys are going to be nuclear engineers and pushing them through is doing no help to anyone.

Agreed. I had a history class where people got 30% on a test and got a D...

Not ok. So the people that dont try and skip classes to go smoke weed still pass?

[nissangirl74]

Sooooo, Summer is here again! This Summer, the request has been for extra instruction in "How to make your own budget and stick to it", art, and music lessons and "how to get better at fractions and other algebraic concepts" . Oh well, I guess I can't have it all, huh?

[MinisterofDOOM]

extra instruction in "How to make your own budget and stick to it",

The best way to learn that is to support yourself. I could never stick to a budget when I lived at home, but once I moved out I had no trouble adapting to a budget and financial obligations. It's hard to "fake" a budget because there's no consequence if it isn't met. That said, I certainly believe it's something to cover BEFORE you're self-dependent so you're not blindsided by it (like most of the VERY young and married friends I have who went from daddy buying them a brand new car to barely being able to afford Ramen with no idea how to cope).

Music lessons are a great idea that everyone should experience. Be EXTREMELY selective of the instructor. Some people are good at teaching to play AN INSTRUMENT but not very good at teaching broader musical concepts that translate out beyond that particular instrument. Like learning a language, if you really properly learn to play one instrument, it'll make learning others much easier.
One of the biggest reasons I want to get out of living in apartments and into a HOUSE is because I own a violin that I've never learned to play, because I'm afraid of destroying everyone's ears (violins are DAMN LOUD).

As for fractions and algebra: I've got nothing. The only way for me to learn math is practically, but it's hard to find practical applications for most algebra and other "lower math", which is why it's probably my least favorite thing ever. If your girls are the same way, it's going to be a challenge to keep them interested.

[MaximA32]

extra instruction in "How to make your own budget and stick to it",

The best way to learn that is to support yourself. I could never stick to a budget when I lived at home, but once I moved out I had no trouble adapting to a budget and financial obligations. It's hard to "fake" a budget because there's no consequence if it isn't met. That said, I certainly believe it's something to cover BEFORE you're self-dependent so you're not blindsided by it (like most of the VERY young and married friends I have who went from daddy buying them a brand new car to barely being able to afford Ramen with no idea how to cope).

This. All of this. When I was living at home, I blew money like nobody's business on who knows what. Now that I have my own place and will be tossed out on my keester if my financial obligations aren't met, I have more money than I ever did living rent free.

[One Finger]

I don't think it is any secret around here how fed up I am with the public school system and the amount of things that are NOT taught to our kids these days. The girls approached me about using this time to teach them some things that they are lacking in. On their lists: teaching Saraya how to tell time on an analog clock (yeah, I know ), how to make a budget and count money, spelling and vocabulary words so they can become better writers, multiplication tables. Primarily rudimentary stuff that is skipped over these days in order to "teach to the test". Also, knowing how to use a map (instead of depending on GPS), doing current events projects, and their favorite, "how to blow s*** up". You can still get science experiments kits online, so i thought i would check into them. simple things like making a volcano out of paper mache and lava with vinegar and baking soda, looking at things under the microscope, staring at the stars through a telescope and identifying constellations. If you have any suggestions for fun stuff to do, post up.

Becky, I don't have any specific suggestions for activities but I do have access to TONS of resources for telling time, counting money, etc. I can send you my log-in info (if you don't abuse it!) via PM to a website where you can print TONS of worksheets and activities for just about everything. :-)

[One Finger]

P.S. for anyone who ever struggles with budgeting: www.mint.com CHANGED MY LIFE

[nissangirl74]

Becky, I can send you my log-in info (if you don't abuse it!) via PM to a website where you can print TONS of worksheets and activities for just about everything. :-)

That'd be great and I promise not to abuse it. Thanks!