Suggestions for alignment spec's?

[slipnfall]

Hi, Can anyone get me started on a basic alignment for my S13 coupe? Tein S-tech/AGX and tie rod boots are being installed, and I'v never had this car aligned anyways. Stock SE wheels, w/Cheap cooper rubber.

I'm looking for a good street alignment, but one that's more suited to my driving and suspension than stock. Someone stated that a stock alignment stinks for anything more than "saving tires and producing understeer". I do probably 25% highway driving, but mainly street. I'm not concerned with a little extra tire wear, but certainly nothing extreme.

This was suggested for a street setup, but the camber seems a little too aggressive:Caster F: 7.0 degs.Camber F: - 2.5 deg.Toe F: 0.00 deg.Camber R: - 2.0 deg.Toe R: 0.00 deg.

Also 1/8" rear toe-in was suggested for daily-driven predictability. Toe-in increases with camber right(?), so where should my front and rear toe be at with:

Caster F: 7.0 degs.Camber F: - 2.0 deg.Camber R: - 1.5 deg.

I'm hoping to buy a lifetime alignment($140) from Firestone, and tip the guy for dialing it in for me.

Thanks for any suggestions,'slip

[slipnfall]

You know I just realized I don't currently have any front camber adjustment... so should I just base the other spec's off of what the front camber turns out to be??

[slipnfall]

bump, I have an alignment scheduled this weekend. I'm installing the shocks/struts on Sat.

Thanks,Jamie

[Exar-Kun]

If you don't have camber adjustment, most of this is Nill.

I would run very small ammounts of positive toe just to help the car trackb etter, without wearing the tires badly. Caster at 7 is fine.ALso, you only have a small rear camber adjustment anyways, so you're pretty much stuck with whatever your readings are.-Chet

[slipnfall]

Thanks for the response. When you say +toe, is this the same as toe in?

So I should just stick to a stock alignment then? I realize that I don't have a whole lot of adjustment range: I just assumed that I should shoot for something other than stock, to compliment the shocks/struts.

-Jamie

[benemorius]

Positive toe is toe in. I would tend to agree with him. Everyday driving can get pretty annoying without a bit of toe in. You'll have to constantly be fighting the tendancy of your front end to dart one way or the other. No toe or toe out is great if you need responsive handling, but I wouldn't suggest it if this is your daily driver.
Modified by benemorius at 11:38 PM 10/5/2005

[skydragoness]

If you don't have camber adjustment, most of this is Nill.

I would run very small ammounts of positive toe just to help the car trackb etter, without wearing the tires badly. Caster at 7 is fine.ALso, you only have a small rear camber adjustment anyways, so you're pretty much stuck with whatever your readings are.-Chet

Not trying to hijack your thread Slip, I have the same questions too.

Hey Chet, as far as camber adjustment goes, how about camber bolt kits? Are they anybetter than stock? I can't afford those fancy camber plates. I'm wondering what a good setup would be for me as well. My car sees some rough pavement (crappy roads around here), occasional autocrosses, and the occasional backroad 'run'

[Exar-Kun]

Camber bolt kits are -ok- but I don't reccoemend them for 240's because of their orientation(function) in the strut. Plus they don't allow a lot of adjustment (maybe += .5*) but it's better than not doing anything. THe question I think is where are you now (as far as camber goes), and go from there..you probably don't need them

-ChetAlso rough pavement, etc will unseat those bolts and they'll fall bakc to normal quickly...that's another downside.

[slipnfall]

Great explaination ben, thanks. For reference purposes, this is what the FSM calls for:(these have been converted from DMS form FYI)

FRONT:Camber: -1.5* to 0*Caster: 6* to 7.5*Toe-in (A-B): 0.012" to 0.091"Toe total angle(2theta): 0.033* to 0.217*Kingpin Incl: 12.5* to 14*

REAR:Camber: -1.6* to 0.6*Toe-in (A-B): 0.020" to 0.177"Toe total angle(2theta): 0.05* to 0.417*

I'm also leary of front escentric bolts also(although I considered using loc-tite on them, but I don't think it would hold).

It appears the front and rear camber are pretty close, so I will try to have my rear adjusted slightly more negative than the front(if it is less).For toe, just stick with close to minimum's listed above? Caster I'll leave be.

I'll be sure to let you guys know how it turns out.

Thanks for the responses.

[slipnfall]

BTW I read over TireRack's alignment info... the toe description is a bit confusing.

They mention toe-in, and toe-out. Ok, that's easy enough to understand. But then they mention positive and negative? Is a more positive toe-in aproaching toe-out? Or a more negative toe-in aproaches to-out?

A rear-wheel drive vehicle "pushes" the front axle's tires as they roll along the road. Tire rolling resistance causes a little drag resulting in rearward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Because of this, most rear-wheel drive vehicles use some positive toe-in to compensate for the movement, enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Conversely, a front-wheel drive vehicle "pulls" the vehicle through the front axle, resulting in forward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Therefore most front-wheel drive vehicles use some negative toe-out to compensate for the movement, again enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

[benemorius]

It took me a while to figure out what you were confused about. I finally went back and read my post and that explained it all. I can only imagine that I was on crack when I posted it.

I am sorry for the confusion. Toe out is negative; toe in is positlve. I really don't remember what I was thinking so I guess I won't try to make an excuse.

And now to go back and edit...

[slipnfall]

haha, no problem... thanks for clearing that up.

BTW I had to laugh at your profile location... home sweet localhost...

[chmercer]

i had a simple question and everyone seems to be talking about toe in this thread, so ill toss it in here.

im running factory toe in settings in front, about 2.5 negative front camber front, and the caster i think is around 7.5 or 8 according to a hunter rack (the tension rods are basically bottomed out, why is my caster so low? but thats another issue) anyway, my car tracks bigtime and dosent like to center when i drop the wheel, i mean, it basically centers but it will always end up veering on the highway. im guessing this is because my front tires are relativley wide, and because the sus is much stiffer than stock, im not getting as much positive toe gain on compression.

abbreviated - how much toe in can i run without blowing up my tires/making the steering totally sluggish?

[Exar-Kun]

First, make sure caster form side to side is even, and the camber is even from side to side. Also with caster over 7*, theres a good bit of self-aligning torque being applied how it is.

I would run maybe .02 toe in and see how that feels, it enough for the car to want to self center, but not enough such that the steering won't want to let you turn quickly.

ALso, check your rear readings, that can cause it to "dog track" like your describing if they're not aligned with the front settings and frame correctly.

-CHet(You'll notice on a good rack/machine when you adjust the front toes, etc the rear settings change a bit...)

[slipnfall]

So rear toe should always be a bit over that of the front? If you're suggesting 0.02" toe-in for front, then say 0.04" toe-in for rear(just based off the stock difference between F/R)

I think I'm starting to get it honed in:F.Camber: what it decides to beR.Camber: slightly over frontF.Toe: 0.02"R.Toe: 0.04"Caster: 7.5*

Winter is coming up so I don't want to compromise traction too much(although this will be my first NM winter, which I think will be pretty damn tame compared to PA!)

[chmercer]

thanks chet, i will try that out.

slipnfall, do you have tension rods? if not, your caster is going to be non adjustable. you already said you dont have camber plates, so that is also going to be non adjustable. so in the front, all you are able to adjust is toe.

rear camber and toe can be adjusted minimally with the stock eccentric bolts. not to be an ******* but on a car with basically stock suspension, id think a factory alignment would be ok.

"so I will try to have my rear adjusted slightly more negative than the front(if it is less)."

what you said is going to encourage understeer, is that what you want? your car is already going to take on some negative camber from the drop springs.

[slipnfall]

No it's cool; I'd rather someone tell me straight up, vs telling me what I want to hear. It's funny you called the Tein's drop springs, because I chose them over many others not for their drop, but because they perform much better than others(eibach, etc). But back to the point...the coupes inherently have a bit of natural understeer, correct? So for a more neutral feeling in heavy turns, I would want to decrease the rear camber(compared to front)?

[Exar-Kun]

Also keep in mind, the rear suspension design gains more negative camber in bounce (compression) than the front.

I ran my tow on the front at .01 in and the rear at .01 or .015 also. I didn't have any bumps steer issues, but that's the reasining behind nissan making the rear toe in a smidgen higher than the front.

Running a bit more negative camber in the rear than front is probably a good thing for most driver, it will give you a margin of error (and a bit of understeer..).

-Chet

[slipnfall]

Hey guys/gals. I finished the install tonight! All I can say is *yum*. I'v never owned a car(this is my 4th) with aftermarket suspension components on it. Sure the AGX/Stech combo might be 'entry-level' or less to some, but wow did it make a difference: even without an alignment. I took [more] corners faster in one hour tonight than I have in the 3years I've owned this car.

Just FYI, I replaced front: strut bearings, paper 'gasket', dust boots, all OEM. Rear: upper spring perches, gaskets, both OEM, both rubber 'bumpers' with NISMO versions, KYB boots.

I also trimmed the bump stops on all boots by < 1/4". Just a little extra headroom(and peace of mind).

I had all intentions of taking lots of pictures, even doing a write-up. Basically the guy helping me was a prick and acted like Cinderella who had to be home by 10pm...anyways, install took us 6-6.5 hours, including two short breaks and pizza dinner.

Everything went on without a problem. Some random tips though: crack the shock/strut rod(center) nuts loose before raising the wheels off the ground. This saved a good bit of headache. Also, some will quickly realize that re-tigtening these bolts is a PITA: the piston rotates. Even on the fronts, with the lock washer, it is not enough to hold torque against. Well for the front, we lowered the car to it's wheels, and this provided enough force to keep the spring perch stationary. Just have another person grip the rod(haha) under the boot to make sure it isn't spinning. On the rear however, they spun much easier. So we had to use a cresent wrench on the rod(very top) and an angled box wrench on the nut to get it 'close enough': they are only torqued to 14 or so ft-lbs, so you can do this easily by hand.

Overall very happy. It was dark so I really couldn't take advantage of the road(unfamiliar area). Tomorrow after the alignment we'll see.

Thanks for the above suggestions, I'll follow up tomorrow night.

[slipnfall]

I also wanted to mention that I havn't forgot about considering the overall handling, such as braking and wet handling. I'm due for brakes+rotors soon(Hawk HPS on order), so I will have push it a bit after that to find any new/changed limits. It has been said many times that 'some people mistake less body roll for better handling'. Can anyone expand on that?

[slipnfall]

Below are before/after results. The problem is, my car is pulling to the left. It isn't extremely bad, but if I don't keep tension on the wheel, it will slowly track that way. I asked about the seperation of camber in front, and he said it was OK: that once I got it on the road, it would even out in banking...I have a 6mo warranty, I'm going to bring it back. Am I going to need adjustable upper mounts to cure the pulling?

Before:Front:Camber L: -0.94Camber R: -1.20Caster L: 6.51*Caster R: 6.22*Toe L: -0.08*Toe R: 0.23*

Rear:Camber L: -1.80*Camber R: -1.71*Toe L: 0.03*Toe R: 0.20*

After:Front:Camber L: -0.88*Camber R: -1.23*Caster L: 6.51*Caster R: 6.22*Toe L: 0.06*Toe R: 0.06*

Rear:Camber L: -1.76*Camber R: -1.78*Toe L: 0.14*Toe R: 0.12*

[240sxjeff]

Yeah I can see how your car is pulling to the left because of the camber difference up front. Was that the best they could do for camber up front?There might be something bent on your front suspension, so you might want to check it out under there.But to answer your question yes the adjustable upper mounts will probally cure your camber problem, if the uppers dont fix the problem at least you can bring the camber of the two front wheels closer together. For example: set them both to -1.8 degrees camber on both the front tires

[slipnfall]

Well I noticed this morning my one tire is a little low, so I'm going to check them all first. I hope it wasn't this way before alignment, because I know they didn't bother checking.

I can't see anything obviously bent. The car didn't pull this hard before, so I'll have to check my upper perches, make sure they didn't spin on me. I doubt the 'nuckle' is bent, so that only leaves the LCA, right? It sucks because I just bought new OEM upper mounts, and don't feel like replacing them for adjustables already. I suppose I could open up the upper mounting holes a bit, but that seems about as shoddy as crash bolts...

Could they adjust the caster to compensate? Camber and caster splits are the only two things that will cause a car to pull, right?

[Exar-Kun]

Low tire pressure, radial pull, etc can all cause it to pll to one side.

Did you get your tires rotated at the same time also?

Check the cold air prssure and check for differnet tire conditions L to R.

THen look at the camber caster..also if the toe was set with the steering wheel off, it may appear to "pull" when its really just a piss-poor job of aligning it.

Get on a FLAT peice of road, and see if you can set thes teering wheel to a position and let go where the car goes straight for a decent distance..if so it's a mis-alignment. If it keeps pulling or the steering wheel keeps moving back, its an actual "pull"

-Chet

[slipnfall]

Well, what can I say. Never under-estimate the importance of uniform tire pressure(!) As I suspected, my D/S front was down about 3-4psi. After checking them all, the car sliiiightly drifts to the same side, but it is certainly acceptable.

All is good, now I really need to focus on getting myself some all season's...