Subframe bushings: Urethane or aluminum?

[gumby74]

Just did a quick search before I haul a$$ to work, so I expect plenty of responses and all of the hard work to be magically be done for me when I get home in 12 hours. I am presently waiting for my helical diff to arrive (economy sea mail) so I have a few weeks to line up a few other things. I found a set of replacement e/s bushings, not collars, for my s13. I was wondering if anyone was running these as opposed to aluminum pieces and if so was the install any different from the metal replacements? Aside from the freezing part. I am considering these full e/s bushings or running the aluminum collars. The stock bushings are still there, but they dont look happy. Input please.

[spider_slayer]

I expect plenty of responses and all of the hard work to be magically be done for me when I get home in 12 hours.

your crazy

[94_240sx]

Stock bushings are not separated and still there, then collars. If you use urethane, I guess evetually they wear out and you have to do something again. As far as I know, if stock ones are not separated, collars will do a good job. If stock bushings are in bad shape, collars will make a lot of noise. Anyway, I'm going to get aluminum collars too since my stock bushings are in decent condition. Good luck!!

[silnismo]

hehe, im in the same situation as you, just got my s15 helical last week and ordering up sum subframe aluminum collars. i think the solid was are going to be way to hard to install(drop whole subframe) and too stiff for me. i think the aluminum collars should do the job. and urthane one will be replaced eventually anyway.

my .02

[94_240sx]

^^I do have s15 HLSD in my garage, and I got it last Nov. via sea mail from Japan. Actually, I'm ordering subframe collars tomorrow. I should get Nismo ring gear bolts early next week. Man... we are in same situation.

[AmoebAssassin]

Full aluminum solids if its a track car or if you have big enough nuts to street it.

You really cant beat solid aluminum bushings for subframe deflection prevention.

[94_240sx]

Dang! Little short on cash, so have to order subframe collars next month...

[gumby74]

Well, she is the daily driver/weekend entertainment/keeper of my sanity. I have been upgrading and replacing the stock driving gear a piece at a time over the past year or so. I am not really considering the full aluminum treatment. If I do decide to drop the subframe, it will be to install the urethane bushings. I may go with the collars for the time being and replace the bushings a bit later. The cost is not really that substantial, $60 for collars and $60 for bushings, its just the actual work. I admit it. I am getting lazy. I will seek counseling...............later.

[SmithSR]

Collars are fine. You'll immediately notice the difference. You'll probably be happy with collars, since they take up the slack so nicely and are so affordable. I got mine from phase2motortrend.

[94_240sx]

I got mine from phase2motortrend.

That's where I was going to order mine from. As far as I know, phase2motortrend collars are cut based off of Kazama ones. So, theirs should be exactly same as Kazama's, but cheaper.

[gumby74]

I was looking at the set from Techno Toys Tuning actually, they seem to have a good rep with the Toyota guys and $60 at my door. Plus they are also anodized red, and my car also happens to be red so red it is. Anything else I should do while I am down there? Gonna go to a junk yard in the morning and pick up a pair of rear hubs, clean 'em, paint 'em, and have the new bushings pressed in, then install that on the car. A vain attempt at minimizing down time, so we will see how that works out.

[SmithSR]

Anodized red and red paint never end up matching, FYI. Go for contrast or just some neutral shade, not a color. Trust me

[ShinHed]

There are 2 main types of car people on this forum. There's the 'Overhaulin' type and the 'Pimp My Ride' type. Subframe collars are for the 'Pimp My Ride' type and bushing replacements are for the 'Overhaulin' crowd.

[gumby74]

At some point, I plan on buying a fancy camera with lots of features that I wont use. Then I will figure out how to load up some pictures and let you decide definitively how much is pimped and how much is overhauled. All (minus machine work to crank and block) done with these two hands and this one vision in my mind. Its all about balance bro, and sometimes balance looks pretty damn good.

[ShinHed]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...d=1,1

Kinda the middle ground between urethane and aluminum.I hope to install'em soon.

[gumby74]

Saw no reason to start a new thread, but they are here. Fed Ex guy scared the crap out of me. Blind corner next to my door, I was gonna check the mail and BOOOGAHhhhh there he was. "Hey, youre home!" I had the dear in front of headlights look, and my fist was cocked. At any rate, product is well packaged, they look well machined, smooth no rough edges, nice color similar to the Kazama red. So I guess I will drive over to my brothers place and get dirty. I really need to get a camera. Let y'all know how it goes. Product: Techno Toys Tuning subframe collars. Anodized red. Ordered them on 3-17 in the morning, arrived today 3-24. Cost: $59.95 shipped.

[94_240sx]

I ordered collars from p2m and I should get them tomorrow. They only have plain shiny aluminum finish which I want. I'll also install them soon and take some pics. It was $70+.

[gumby74]

Okay, I successfully installed the collars Sunday morning. Not all that difficult with only one small snag. Of the 4 bushings only one showed any cracking to the inside (forward driver) the other 3 looked pretty good for being almost twenty years old. Did some driving last night and this morning in somewhat soggy conditions. And boy is it gonna rain later. Over all I didnt notice too much of a difference stiffness wise, which is good, the only concession is a thrumming sound being heard in the cabin. Not loud, but noticeable. I will be installing some new carpeting soon, so I will go ahead and order it with the optional rubber lining. Other than that, I am satisfied. Reasonable cost, easy install, not harsh at all and the drawback of a little more cabin noise is quite acceptable.

[sil80drifter]

So what positive difference did you notice, if any? Did the rear end stiffen up and if so, in what way? I can't say I feel TOO much slop, but yeah, there have definitely been wheel hop moments in the rain... what about you? Can you feel the absence of wheel hop? I'm trying to figure out just how much it's worth to bother with the collars....

[hannibal]

There are 2 main types of car people on this forum. There's the 'Overhaulin' type and the 'Pimp My Ride' type. Subframe collars are for the 'Pimp My Ride' type and bushing replacements are for the 'Overhaulin' crowd.

I dont get the comparo...

A member recently install full aluminum bushings and was surprised how much noise they transmitted thtru the body. I would use those unless it was a track car.

I'm curious if anybody has tried urethane bushings and alumnium collars on stock bushings and can compare the two.

[gumby74]

Positive difference? The rear end is becoming more obedient to throttle input. But that is a combination of several things. Foot settings by far are the most influential in my particular set up. Tire choice, bushing slop, and hopefully soon, the helical diff I ordered should arrive as the final piece in my puzzle. In normal (dry) conditions, since my alignment last week, the car feels almost slow. Thats mainly because she is grabbing harder now. Wheel slip has been greatly reduced and can only be induced by going way too fast or sharp turn in at speed. The tail can still be kicked out, but she falls in line just as easily. Once I equal tire sizes front and rear and install the helical, she should be very nuetral and oversteer smoothly. (At least that is the plan) I dont plan on more than 250 horsespowers maybe less, so she will be quite practical daily, comfortable, and still be able to dance with the limits of adhesion with confidence. For under $100 its a good investment. Not a cure all by any means, but will enhance the rest of your set up. As for wheel hop, never really had a problem with it. I rarely peel out or launch hard (about 130hp to the wheels) and I only drive aggressively on roads I know or am familiar with. Wheel hop is a result of subframe and suspension bushings deflecting. Start with some good shocks/springs or coils, and work down to the bushings themselves. Remember, all this stuff is old, and was adequate for stock power and tires.

[sil80drifter]

Oh I see... yeah, I was just trying to figure out the "daily driving" differences felt in terms of improvement, which you've just answered.

You wheel slip comment surprised me, as I would actually expect a better "kick out" or slip ability due to a stiffer rear end, as there are less flex parts besides the tires themselves now, with the tired taking more of the burden of the turn-in and/or engine torque.

sil80

[gumby74]

The ability to "kick out" can be controlled by changing contact patch (camber), and attitude (toe in/out, torque, and lean). My settings maximize the contact caused by the lean, and the toe in allows the car to push forward/on center. Now a setting with toe OUT will get you sideways very easily. I had mentioned this in another post tho, this is a very aggressive setting and is not for the meek or the intermediate. It requires concentration, good instincts, two big brass ones, and intimate knowledge of your set up. Very tail happy. I dont like tail happy. I prefer grip as it is all about action baby, ACTION!! Besides, lots of torque will always over power tires, its the foot settings and rubber that dictate where you will end up.

[ShinHed]

I dont get the comparo...

A member recently install full aluminum bushings and was surprised how much noise they transmitted thtru the body. I would use those unless it was a track car.

I'm curious if anybody has tried urethane bushings and alumnium collars on stock bushings and can compare the two.

If you watch the shows, you know.

[Eddie]

Driving impressions(Al collars):

-better response to acceleration and breaking

-noticibly stiifens rear end. It's almost comparible to the difference t/c rods make in the front, but in the rear.

-increased cabin noise, but you get used to it.

Probably the best bang for the buck susp. mod I can think of.

[94_240sx]

Installed collars last night. It was easy like others said. What I found was it was much easier to drop the subframe after I unbolted all 4 corners. I put the bolts back on with few turns, so it wouldn't drop too much. I noticed that rubber bushings get compressed really hard when I torqued the bolts down to 80lb torque. Is that going to be okay? I haven't driven my car since, so don't have driving impression yet. Here's some pics.

[gumby74]

80ft/lbs? I did not have a service manual when I installed mine, so I torqued the nuts to 100ft/lbs. I should probably find the correct torque value. I have also been thinking, the humming noise I mentioned after install, could a rubber lining be made for the upper part of the collar? I received my spring silencers yesterday and got to thinking how hard would it be to apply something like this to the collars? If anybody knows about rubber, plastic, cardboard, hell anything that could be applied to the collar or chassis itself I would be really interested. Btw, good clean install.

[K]

I installed the Phase2 aluminum collars a few weeks ago. I was initially surprised by the amount of noise they transfered into the cabin (klunking on shifts and a nice resonant humming when you hit certain speeds) and was worried, but now i don't even notice it. I'd recommend them. Definitely stiffened up the rear and my shifts feel more solid now.

K

[94_240sx]

80ft/lbs? I did not have a service manual when I installed mine, so I torqued the nuts to 100ft/lbs. I should probably find the correct torque value. I have also been thinking, the humming noise I mentioned after install, could a rubber lining be made for the upper part of the collar? I received my spring silencers yesterday and got to thinking how hard would it be to apply something like this to the collars? If anybody knows about rubber, plastic, cardboard, hell anything that could be applied to the collar or chassis itself I would be really interested. Btw, good clean install.

It's actually 72-87lb, so I did 80lb. You should do it right because if you over torque them, studs will be stretched slightly. If you try to remove the nuts later, you might break them if they are rusty. You know what I mean? Torque spec is very important, so take care of them ASAP.

Basically, this could happen to you later if you try to drop subframe again for some reason.zer...20477

Good material would be this... You know that thin paper like ring that goes in between strut and strut tower? That's there to prevent metal to metal contact. If the noise bothers me too much, I'll do something about it since it's an easy job to take the collars out and put them back in.

[gumby74]

You and me, we are thinking on the same page. I was actually looking at that gasket thing this morning. I am going to look into this a bit as it would not be too difficult to install, and yeah, you do get used to the noise. Lastly, thanks for that torque spec, get on it immediately sir.