Sub/amp advice

[tarek]

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker and new poster around here and looking to get an AC 3.5 w/ the premium package in the next couple of months. One of my projects which I've planned for it is to install a sub/amp, along with either an Avic-D3 or Kenwood 5120 HU.

I'm looking for some advice on subs and amps. I'm not looking for anything big which people will hear me coming down the block with, but just something modest which will add to my own music. I don't care if people outside the car can hear it or anything like that. I think what I'm looking for is 1 10" sub (mainly due to space constraints in the trunk), which I'm planning on building a fiberglass enclosure on the side of the truck for (similar to what this guy did: http://forums.altimas.org/zero...age=2). I feel this way it'll maximize overall space in the trunk, which is already really small. My budget for the sub/amp themselves is around $500.

I was thinking of the Infinity Kappa 104.7w sub: http://www.crutchfield.com/App...p=111 and something like the Infinity Reference 1600a amp: http://www.crutchfield.com/App...p=115

How do people feel about these picks? Do you think I could get something better for my price range of $500 give or take a bit. I'm far from being knowledgeable about audio systems, so I welcome any advice and recommendations.

Thanks for any help!Tarek

[Beatrice]

I've had Infinity subs, and they are pretty good. I never used an Infinity mono amp before, so I don't know how the amp is, but if you're looking to save money, I'd say go with a powerful Hifonics amp. They are pretty decent for the amount of power you get at a good price.

I've owned a wide variety of subs/amps, but I have to say I love the JL products the most. I have never gone wrong with them. If I were you, I would go with a JL 10W3v3 sub and a JL 500.1 amp. That will hover right around your target budget if not slightly over, but trust me, it will be well worth the money.

I've heard good things about Kicker subs also, so those might be worth a look.

[tarek]

Hey Beatrice,

I'd love to have some JL Audio stuff, but unfortunately JL Audio seems very hard to find in Canada, and the places that do carry it mark it up A LOT! For example crutchfield canada has a very limited selection of JL Audio stuff, and no 10W3 or higher. Also, the 500.1 amp (which I've read is awesome) is $650 there. Even on crutchfield USA it's 400, which blows through almost all my budget without a sub to go with it. So while I'd love to have a JL sub/amp, it is unfortunately out of my price range.

I've never heard of Hifonics so I'll have to look into that. I just did a quick search at the major canadian retailers sites and couldn't it there, so looks like another product hard to find here. I dunno why canada sucks so much for decent car audio

Kickers also seem to be a little higher up on the price than the infinitys. That's what drew me to the infinitys to begin with. They seem to have the same specs as the higher products for far cheaper, and infinity is a fairly good/respected car brand right? It makes me a little suspicious about them too, which is why I wanted to get opinions on them.

[Beatrice]

Nothing suspicious about Infinity. It is a good brand. I have components and 6x9s made by them in my car. Not the best of the best, but they aren't too shabby either. That sucks you are paying inflated prices in Canada... You might want to look around for any Phoenix Gold amps, those are pretty good quality... or some Precision Power (PPI). I really don't know what would be cheap in Canada. If all else, fails, I wouldn't be too timid about going for the Infinity amp. It's a good company with a good reputation.

[tarek]

Well, prices here are crazy. When I eventually get the AC it's going to be from the states because the price difference is at least $5000 (probably more) out the door. If I can find a good price on some JL Audio stuff from the US, what I can always do is ship it to the nearest UPS store in Bellingham, WA and drive down and pick it up. It's about a 45min-1hr drive from Vancouver so it's not horrible. That's what I'm going to do when I do buy the D3 or Kenwood 5120, because they are so ridiculously marked up here. I guess the smart thing to do would buy the car, HU and sub/amp all from the states and pick them up all at once...save myself time and money!

[Beatrice]

Well, prices here are crazy. When I eventually get the AC it's going to be from the states because the price difference is at least $5000 (probably more) out the door. If I can find a good price on some JL Audio stuff from the US, what I can always do is ship it to the nearest UPS store in Bellingham, WA and drive down and pick it up. It's about a 45min-1hr drive from Vancouver so it's not horrible. That's what I'm going to do when I do buy the D3 or Kenwood 5120, because they are so ridiculously marked up here. I guess the smart thing to do would buy the car, HU and sub/amp all from the states and pick them up all at once...save myself time and money!

If you're going to do that, then definitely get JL. You can find JL 10W3v3s on ebay for around $150 w/ buy it now and you can pick up a 500.1 amp for around $200 on ebay as well. If you can't trust ebay, http://www.onlinecarstereo.com has the W3v3 for $165 and the 500.1v2 (which is 2nd gen 500.1) for $375. I've bought from them and they are very good. Hope this helps.

[tarek]

I've spent the last couple of hours (procrastinating writing an essay) looking at JL Audio stuff on ebay, and they are a LOT cheaper than at stores! I see that the 10W6v2 is around $90 more than the 10W3v3. Is the 10W6 significantly better than the 10W3?

I looked at the specs on crutchfield (and honestly I don't know what they all mean) and it looks like the 10W6 can handle 150W more than the 10W3, but since I'd pair them up with the 500/1 amp it wouldn't really matter. The 10W3 is 100 - 500W RMS while the 10W6 is 150 - 600W RMS, but I'd only be putting a max of 500 through them anyways. Also, the frequency response for the 10W6 is slightly better (23 vs 25) but the sensitivity is lower (83.7 vs 84.87). Anyways, these numbers really mean very little to me, and I know that a sub is more than just its paper specs.

Anyone have any experience with both these subs that can chime in to the differences when given equal power (500W)?

[rjdmmfl1]

I've spent the last couple of hours (procrastinating writing an essay) looking at JL Audio stuff on ebay, and they are a LOT cheaper than at stores! I see that the 10W6v2 is around $90 more than the 10W3v3. Is the 10W6 significantly better than the 10W3?

I looked at the specs on crutchfield (and honestly I don't know what they all mean) and it looks like the 10W6 can handle 150W more than the 10W3, but since I'd pair them up with the 500/1 amp it wouldn't really matter. The 10W3 is 100 - 500W RMS while the 10W6 is 150 - 600W RMS, but I'd only be putting a max of 500 through them anyways. Also, the frequency response for the 10W6 is slightly better (23 vs 25) but the sensitivity is lower (83.7 vs 84.87). Anyways, these numbers really mean very little to me, and I know that a sub is more than just its paper specs.

Anyone have any experience with both these subs that can chime in to the differences when given equal power (500W)?

OK, I'll try to chime in...

Inifnity makes great interior speakers... their Kappa perfect series components and kappa series 6 x 9 are some of the best out there. the regular reference series is just OK.

However, infinity's subs and Amps are NOT very good! It seems that every audio company is a jack of all trades , but master at very few! Rockford fosgate makes some great top of the line subs and amps, but their speakers and headunits are just OK.

The J/L audio subs and amps come out of the box ready to bang immediatey, while Rockford subs and Amps will require some break in time... but comparitively, a broken in Rockford T1 12" sub would destroy a JL audio W6, and a rockfrod T2 12" would destroy a JL audio W7. BUt the average listener wouldn't be able to really tell the difference... but I digress.

Regarding Jl audio's subs, given the same AMP applied to both, the W6 has the potential to seriously out perform the W3... not even close actually! The subs total RMS power handling capabilities is usually always different than what is printed... so the W6 could most likely handle about 670-700 RMS easily!

But you stated that you don't want/ need that much power anyway so.....

I would say, going by what you want, get the JL audio 500.1 and W3, and you will be satisfied. For your needs, I also suggest getting the Rockford T500-1bd amp, and a punch P3 sub in a ported box, and you'd also be happy. I'm not sure about JL audio, but definately for Rockford subs, no matter what the box says, you HAVE to get a ported box, otherwise they will sound like crap!

And if space is an issue for you, Rockford offers a Punch P3 shallow sub, and Jl audio has released its TW5 shallow sub... the P3 is more in your budget though as the TW5 shallow JL audio sub is about $500 by itself!

Good luck!

[tarek]

Hey rjdmmfl1,

Thanks for the advice. I've heard others who have said the same thing about infinitys subs/amps and that's why I came here to you guys for advice.

Now when I was looking on ebay for the RF subs you recommended, I saw that the T110D2 sub sells for about $165 brand new. Compared to about $240 for the 10W6, that's a $75 difference! And if you say that it'd destroy a 10W6, that's a pretty nice deal. It's also only $30 more than the 10W3s, so it seems like that's making it pretty high on my sub list! I'm definitely leaning towards this now, just got a couple of questions.

According to crutchfield they seem almost identical in specs (to the 10W6). The T1s do need a bigger box (almost a full f^3 bigger if going ported), but honestly I'm not *that* space conscious...I obviously just want to make the most with what I've got, but if I can find something better and cheaper, well that'll win out. The only difference I see (specs wise) is that the frequency response for the T1 is 35-250, while the W6 is 23-250. Being a sub shouldn't it be as low as possible? 35 seems pretty high compared to most subs I've looked at (again the #s means quite little to me, I just go by what I read on forums and such).

Also, even if the T1 can hit louder, how do they compare in SQ? Like I said earlier I don't need anything which pounds down the block (although I really wouldn't be opposed to it having power for when I want to crank it up), but I am trying to be very SQ conscious. Ideally of course I'd want high SQ & SPL. Is the T1 in a ported box competitive with the W6 in a sealed box with regards to SQ?

About the amps, I think I'd still prefer the 500/1 as opposed to the T5001BD. Reason being that the 500/1 has higher specs and is only $30-40 more on ebay. And if I did get the T1 with the 500/1 it'd still be under my budget which is great!

Thanks for your help btw, I think I'm decided on getting a Kenwood 5120 even if it is a couple of hundred more. I really like the idea of the simplicity and speed of the UI, and more accurate/faster nav system. Thanks for posting about it earlier.

[rjdmmfl1]

Hey rjdmmfl1,

Thanks for the advice. I've heard others who have said the same thing about infinitys subs/amps and that's why I came here to you guys for advice.

Now when I was looking on ebay for the RF subs you recommended, I saw that the T110D2 sub sells for about $165 brand new. Compared to about $240 for the 10W6, that's a $75 difference! And if you say that it'd destroy a 10W6, that's a pretty nice deal. It's also only $30 more than the 10W3s, so it seems like that's making it pretty high on my sub list! I'm definitely leaning towards this now, just got a couple of questions.

According to crutchfield they seem almost identical in specs (to the 10W6). The T1s do need a bigger box (almost a full f^3 bigger if going ported), but honestly I'm not *that* space conscious...I obviously just want to make the most with what I've got, but if I can find something better and cheaper, well that'll win out. The only difference I see (specs wise) is that the frequency response for the T1 is 35-250, while the W6 is 23-250. Being a sub shouldn't it be as low as possible? 35 seems pretty high compared to most subs I've looked at (again the #s means quite little to me, I just go by what I read on forums and such).

Also, even if the T1 can hit louder, how do they compare in SQ? Like I said earlier I don't need anything which pounds down the block (although I really wouldn't be opposed to it having power for when I want to crank it up), but I am trying to be very SQ conscious. Ideally of course I'd want high SQ & SPL. Is the T1 in a ported box competitive with the W6 in a sealed box with regards to SQ?

About the amps, I think I'd still prefer the 500/1 as opposed to the T5001BD. Reason being that the 500/1 has higher specs and is only $30-40 more on ebay. And if I did get the T1 with the 500/1 it'd still be under my budget which is great!

Thanks for your help btw, I think I'm decided on getting a Kenwood 5120 even if it is a couple of hundred more. I really like the idea of the simplicity and speed of the UI, and more accurate/faster nav system. Thanks for posting about it earlier.

Regarding SQ, anytime a sub is in a sealed box, you will have tighter bass... Iwould say it depends on what type of music you listen to. If you want tight bass, then go with the JL in a sealed box.. if you listen to hip hop and want booming bass, then by all means go with the T1.

The reason I wouldn't advise the T1 is that, when the proper amount of power is given to it, they hit extremely hard. And if that's not what you are looking for, then niether that nor the W6 is the way to go. I had two T1's with about 600 watts RMS going to each, and it literally rattled my car apart. WAYYY too much power for my old ears...lol

Back to the Rockford T500-1bd and JL Audio 500.1.. the RF amp is def MORE powerful than the JL amp, regardless of what the specs say, but only true RF fans understand this...

JL audio configures their amps to put out the same power over 1.5 - 4 ohmsRF, does not... however Rockford Fosgate significantly underates their amps...for example...

RF states its 500-1bd amp does 250 RMS @ 4 ohms, 400RMS @ 2 ohms, and 500 RMS at 1 ohms... but when you actually purchase a 500-1bd, you get a birthsheet that has the ACTUAL power outputs... and the ACTUAL power outputs for the 500-1bd are... ~425 @ 4 ohms, 700 @ 2 ohms, and 1000 @ 1 ohm... don't believe me.. check out these forums..

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com...28516http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs....html

So, again I say all this to say, for the BEST performance, don't mix and match JL sub with Rockford amp and vice versa. Either go with the JL 500.1 and JL W6, or go with the Rockford T1 and Rockford T500-1bd

So I figure

[tarek]

Wow that's crazy about the T500-1bd. I like how the one guy says that the guy at his local shop has never seen one less than 850RMS. For the price they're selling at that's a steal. Out of curiosity why do you say not to mix and match sub/amp? I didn't think it'd matter what brand goes with what, only the power that's going into the sub...

And a T1 in a sealed box is a big no no? I tried to find reviews and people said it pounds away in a sealed box, but doesn't mean it sounds great I really like that it's $70 less though, but I would really want to put it in a sealed box. I do listen to rap and hiphop, but I also listen to a lot of rock and punk, and even pop on occasion. All of which a ported box might be a little off/a little loud for...hmmm

decisions decisions I appreciate all your input in this rjdmmfl1

[rjdmmfl1]

Wow that's crazy about the T500-1bd. I like how the one guy says that the guy at his local shop has never seen one less than 850RMS. For the price they're selling at that's a steal. Out of curiosity why do you say not to mix and match sub/amp? I didn't think it'd matter what brand goes with what, only the power that's going into the sub...

And a T1 in a sealed box is a big no no? I tried to find reviews and people said it pounds away in a sealed box, but doesn't mean it sounds great I really like that it's $70 less though, but I would really want to put it in a sealed box. I do listen to rap and hiphop, but I also listen to a lot of rock and punk, and even pop on occasion. All of which a ported box might be a little off/a little loud for...hmmm

decisions decisions I appreciate all your input in this rjdmmfl1

It needs air and want air to breathe. Its not like other subs! You can do a P3 in a sealed box, but no true audiophile and RF expert would suggest putting a T1 in a sealed box.. actually, when they first came out, there weren't any specs for a sealed box for the t1 or T2! It really doesn't want to be in a sealed box!

Regarding mixing and matching subs and amps, its not that it can't be done, its just that Rf designs its subs with its woofers in mind, and vice versa. So the same way the amp is underrated, so is the sub.. therfore, when you mate them, they still match up perfectly!

But if you put a Rockford T500-1bd amp that, although rated at only 400 RMS at 2 ohms, is actually putting out 700-800 RMS at 2 ohms, and then you mate that with a JL W3 that says it can handle 500 RMS, but may not be able to handle the 800 RMS that it will be getting from the Ropckford amp, then you may eventually blow your sub!

BUt that's just a rule of thumb that I follow because I know how these two companies rate their subs... and honestly, I think JL and Rf make the best subs and amps, but in two very different ways!!

So for the record, the JL W3 is approx equal to a RF P3, a JL W6 = RF T1, and a Jl W7 = RF T2

So for these particular companies, I would say mixing and matching is OK, but why do it when you can get a great SUB/AMP combo from either company!

[tarek]

Well, since the T1 really doesn't want to be in a sealed box, I'm back to eyeing down the 10W6 again. The reason I was asking about mix and matching, is that earlier you said the 10W6 can easily handle 700W RMS. Now if the T500-1bd is very underrated and at 2 ohms it's actually putting out 700, then I'm making full use of the sub, whereas the JL Audio 500/1 is rated at 500W from 1-4 ohms. Plus, the T500-1bd is quite a bit cheaper on ebay than the 500/1 (up to $70 less).

I was hoping you could clear something up for me on some of the listings I'm seeing on ebay. They all seem to have different pictures, but claim to be the same amp? Here're 3 examples:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-Rockfor...wItem http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAP...h=020h ... AP...h=002

The last one there is the only one which matches the picture on crutchfield, and claims to be an authorized Rockford Fosgate dealer. It's also the cheapest. The specs for the first one seem to be all wrong, so maybe it's just mislabled or something? But the 2nd one seems to be all right, but the picture is way off unless I'm missing something. I just find it really weird

[rjdmmfl1]

Well, since the T1 really doesn't want to be in a sealed box, I'm back to eyeing down the 10W6 again. The reason I was asking about mix and matching, is that earlier you said the 10W6 can easily handle 700W RMS. Now if the T500-1bd is very underrated and at 2 ohms it's actually putting out 700, then I'm making full use of the sub, whereas the JL Audio 500/1 is rated at 500W from 1-4 ohms. Plus, the T500-1bd is quite a bit cheaper on ebay than the 500/1 (up to $70 less).

I was hoping you could clear something up for me on some of the listings I'm seeing on ebay. They all seem to have different pictures, but claim to be the same amp? Here're 3 examples:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-Rockfor...wItem http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAP...h=020h ... AP...h=002

The last one there is the only one which matches the picture on crutchfield, and claims to be an authorized Rockford Fosgate dealer. It's also the cheapest. The specs for the first one seem to be all wrong, so maybe it's just mislabled or something? But the 2nd one seems to be all right, but the picture is way off unless I'm missing something. I just find it really weird

OK, the first one is inconsistently labeled... regarding the second two...

the are and aren't the same amps.... one is the T5001bd, the other is the T500-1bd... one is the 06 version, the other is the 07 version...

In '07, rockford redesigned their amps with new technology allowing the same, or even more power in a smaller amp. JL audio did the same thing, so if you go to ebay, nd try to find a 500.1, you'll get bothj the 2006-2007 larger version, and the 2008 slightly smaller version..

Some people think bigger is always bettter when it comes to AMPS, so know better than to follow that logic... at this point, both Rockford and JL are at the point where their followers know not to look at their product and think, 'oh its small so it must not be powerful'

So to sum it up, you want the T500-1bd, that's the newer model!

[mcheddadi]

moomoo farm
Modified by mcheddadi at 11:19 PM 4/6/2008

[Beatrice]

Blah, Rockford Fosgate... It's going to turn into an RF vs JL battle in here!

Not to take anything away from RF (I've owned a few and love their SPL), but I'm partial to sealed boxes, and thus, JL. Ported will sound nice in an open cabin such as an SUV or station wagon or something, but not so much in the trunk. SQ suffers even though you might squeeze out more SPL. Just a personal preference.

As for the W6, it has a bigger magnet than the W3, so it will hit a little harder, but it also requires more power to really shine. I had a 12W6 mated to a 500.1 in my old CB7 for a while and it felt underpowered. The 10W6 should fare a little better because of its lower power handling, but with the W3, it will be powered toward the top end of its handling, which will make it sound a lot better than an underpowered W6, especially in a sealed box. Then again, you'll have a bigger magnet, so you'll get harder, louder bass, so you might want to balance the pros and cons of each. I can say that so far, my 10W7 blows anything I've ever owned (even the bigger W6 and 2 RF 12"s) out of the water when it comes to *SQ + SPL/PRICE + SPACE* ratio. Usually, I've settled for just one or the other. I might have to try some Kickers next because I've been hearing good things about their L7s.

As for Mchedaddi's post, yes, I believe you can power invert your home theater sub into your car, but not 100% sure. I don't really see why not from an electrical standpoint. You might get an AC whine if you're using it as a source for anything else and there also may be an issue with getting it the ~120V or so home theater subs usually need. I don't think I've ever seen this actually done, and there may be a reason for that, but it might be interesting if you end up doing it successfully.

[tarek]

Beatrice,

I agree with you about underpowering subs, and it's something I want to try to avoid. rjdmmfl1 was also quite adamant that the RF T1s should NOT go into a sealed enclosure, and since I'm also partial towards a sealed enclosure I'm not going to go for them. I'm now also quite partial towards the 10W6s, just because they are really not that much more than the 10W3s, and I could get them plus an amp to power them within my budget!

The only thing I'm really thinking about now is which amp. Do I pair the JL Audio sub with a JL Audio amp (the 500/1) which won't quite power the 10W6 to its full potential. Or do I get a RF T500-1bd amp (which is $70 cheaper, and makes up for the more expensive sub), which on paper has the same power as the 500/1, but on the birth sheet specs pushes upwards of 700W at 2ohms. 700W would definitely provide enough power to the 10W6, so that seems like the way to go I think.

While I said I don't want anything overpowering (and 700W sounds like it might be), I like the idea of the power because then normally I can keep the sub volume down as to not be too overpowering, but if I'm in the mood for some serious bass I can crank it up and enjoy. If I can get that kind of option and still be within my price range, then I'm a happy camper!

[Beatrice]

I agree with rj on not mixing and matching. Usually companies will produce their amps specifically for their subs, and usually they are perfectly paired. JL does have a reputation for being a little more conservative, so usually it's safe to step up the amp in any sub/amp combo they recommend.

The 10W6's power handling isn't that big a step up from the W3's, so it's safe to assume that they will be sufficiently powered, but having owned a 12W6 (which has almost the same exact power handling specs as the 10W6), I can tell you that it just felt underpowered. I mean, don't get me wrong, that combo will bang the **** out your car, but it just wasn't enough for me. Even my W7 *could* be louder Then again, like I've said in other posts, I'm a SQ +SPL nut... to an extreme degree, so... But if you're not as nuts as I am, I am 100% certain you will be completely satisfied.

If you do go with the W6, remember to get the 10W6v2. The regular W6s have a slightly different coil design and are also slightly weaker. I would also recommend getting the 500.1v2 as well as the thermal properties of the v2 are much better.

As for mixing with the RF... There's nothing wrong with going that route. It probably is a better fit for the W6 as far as power goes... I just don't like crossing streams

[rjdmmfl1]

I agree with rj on not mixing and matching. Usually companies will produce their amps specifically for their subs, and usually they are perfectly paired. JL does have a reputation for being a little more conservative, so usually it's safe to step up the amp in any sub/amp combo they recommend.

The 10W6's power handling isn't that big a step up from the W3's, so it's safe to assume that they will be sufficiently powered, but having owned a 12W6 (which has almost the same exact power handling specs as the 10W6), I can tell you that it just felt underpowered. I mean, don't get me wrong, that combo will bang the **** out your car, but it just wasn't enough for me. Even my W7 *could* be louder Then again, like I've said in other posts, I'm a SQ +SPL nut... to an extreme degree, so... But if you're not as nuts as I am, I am 100% certain you will be completely satisfied.

If you do go with the W6, remember to get the 10W6v2. The regular W6s have a slightly different coil design and are also slightly weaker. I would also recommend getting the 500.1v2 as well as the thermal properties of the v2 are much better.

As for mixing with the RF... There's nothing wrong with going that route. It probably is a better fit for the W6 as far as power goes... I just don't like crossing streams

Beatrice, I think you and I are on the same page... however, just to clarify, out of the box, a W7 would kill a 12" Rockford T2, but after break in, that would not be the case. The JL W7 and the Rockford T2 (not T1) are very cloosely matched subs, with the Rockford T2 being able to handle a bit more watts RMS than the W7. Its just that the T2 needs about 1 month break in time! To compare your W7 to your previous Rockford 12"'s (which I'm sure were NOT T2's) is like comparing apples and oranges!

But again, Beatrice, if you read my earlier post completely, you'll see that I said , hands down, JL and RF make the best TOP END subs and amps on the market. The solobarics are great woofers, but Kicker's Amps are crap. No other company has the 1-2 amp- sub punch like Rockford and JL!

Also, I mentioned that the new T500-1bd amps are similar to the JL 500.1v2 amps in regards to smaller design with upgraded internal components! BUt again, the 500.1v2 does not produce the RMS power that the T500-1bd produces!

I personally think that, for what you want to do, you should go with the Rockford T500-1bd amp to power the 10W6v2 sub! This will be a great combination if you want to put your sub in a sealed box!

[Beatrice]

Agreed.

Oh and btw, I did some tweaking to the amp settings, and now the Infinitys sound 10x better! They sound super clean now with good midrange response. Those guys at the install shop don't know what the hell they are doing when it comes to tuning. (Would have done the install myself but don't have the tools and have my own reasons for not buying any)

[tarek]

I appreciate all the help you two have given! I love how ppl are so helpful here lol.

Anyways, I think I'm pretty decided on the 10W6 powered by the RF 500-1bd. The price difference between the RF amp and the JL Audio amp is too much to ignore, especially when it's arguable that the RF is significantly better.

My (very optimistic) plan is to try and find a trusted eBay seller that's selling close to everything on my car audio list: Kenwood 5120 + accessories (bluetooth/ipod cable/maybe XM tuner), boyo rear view cam, 500-1db, 10W6, cables and stuff I need to install those, maybe some dynamat for the trunk too, etc. All that should run me between $1300-1500, and then hopefully if I do find someone who's selling everything I can try to negotiate for a lower price, or free shipping or some kinda deal. Whether that's plausible or not remains to be seen.

And hopefully I won't have to change the Bose speakers when I add the sub. I hear that the Bose setup sounds really good the way it is, just lacks in lows. I just *really really* want this car asap! *sigh*