Stuck with this decision (MR2 or 240SX RB25)

[PROJECTRB240SX]

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT A SLAVAGE TITLE. THERE ARE THREE TYPES OF TITLES THAT I HAVE DEALT WITH: NORMAL, SALVAGE, AND REBUILT. NORMAL IS NORAML. SALVAGE IS RETURNING TO FACTORY SPECS. REBUILT IS LIKE BUILDING A CUSTOM HOT ROD AND MAKING IT DOT APPROVED, YOU CAN DO THIS TO ANY CAR AS LONG AS IT PASSES INSPECTIONS.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

THOSE ARE RB26'S, AND THAT MOTOR IS UNSTOPPABLE BUT THE RB20 AND RB25 ARE HAMPERED BY THEY SHINNING POWER OF THE RB26 THUS MAKING THEM HARDER TO GET TO THAT POINT.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

I'M NOT ARGUING WITH YOU I AM JUST SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT SAY THAT THE RB25 IS FAR SUPERIOR THAN THE SR20'S OR ANY OTHER WELL BUILT 4 CYL. HELL PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A 4 CYL THAT WOULD STOMP THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF A RB25, STOCK: EJ25! THE NEW SUBARU 2.5 LITER FLAT FOUR. 300HP STOCK WOULD KILL THAT MOTOR AND IT HAS UNLIMITED POTENTIAL. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

[Onizuka]

well thats where we disagree, because a RB25 with forged internals and a RB26 crank that strokes it out to a 2.7 liter motor that will pound the living sh*t out of any 4 cylinder you can think of. Or you could take a RB26 head and a RB30E block, mate the two and have the most potential 3.0 liter motor on the planet. But i guess none of that matters.....

The versitility, interchangability and aftermarket support of the RB series motors is so far superior to any other import motor it isnt even funny. Think before you speak, they have been tuning and perfecting RB26's for over 11 years now and the RB25 can use all of the same parts, they just have difforent transmissions. The SR series motor, while being in production for 10 years, has been hindered buy the new technology on later models (while increasing initial power, the technologies have decreased overall power potential) not to mention the lack of displacement when compared to most RB motors.

All the motors you have mentioned are excellent peices of engineering, but i dont feel they can stack up to the RB25, RB26, and countless hybrid RB motors that have proven themselves over and over again.

As for the EJ25, its a wonderfull motor but the aftermarket support isnt there yet (has at least 5 years to go for tuners to put as much work into EJ motors as they did the RB motors), and the engine design leads to funky piping, a more complex set up and a ultimatly less efficient turbo system.

Sorry for the essay, i got to practis for my english 015 papers What do you think pretty solid argument?

[gibbo80]

i got a 4 cyl for ya, the all drag cavilier hitting like 6s in the 1/4 it has like 600 ci of displacement. Watch out when you say and 4 cyl

[Joe]

dude...nobody is talking about drag motors.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

THEY HAVE *CLAIMED* 800HP EJ25 MOTORS ROLLING AROUND ALL OVER THE COUNTRY! AND WHEN DID THIS GO FROM RB25 TO RB26? AND LIKE I SAID DON'T GET ME WRONG BUT THERE ARE OTHER HIGHLY QUALIFIED MOTORS IN THIS INDUSTRY, THAT JUST SO HAPPEN TO BE 4 CYL, AND YES AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE THE 2.2 ECOTEC, OR THE 4G63 THEY PUT IN THE LANCERS. THERE ARER A TON OF 4 CYL THAT CAN COMPETE WITH THE "ALL-MIGHTY" RB MOTORS; YOU JUST SOUND LIKE A PERSON WHO IS IGNORANT TO THE FACT THAT THESE NISSAN MOTORS AREN'T UNTOUCHABLE, HELL EVEN HONDA MAKES MOTORS THAT WOULD COMPETE WITH THIS, WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY INVESTED.

[Onizuka]

THEY HAVE *CLAIMED* 800HP EJ25 MOTORS ROLLING AROUND ALL OVER THE COUNTRY! AND WHEN DID THIS GO FROM RB25 TO RB26?

when did it go from the MR2 motor, to the SR20DET, to the EJ25? I also wasnt aware that there are hundreds of STIs rolling around (unless you are talking about turbocharged 2.5 imprezas), can you get me any links, magazine refrences, etc. to these 800hp cars?

the RB25 and RB26 are in the same family and have the same block.

Gibbo80, i think i full drag RB motor RWD in a tube chassi would kick the crap out that drag cavalier.

I think a stock 1989 R32 GTR would beat a stock 2004 WRX STI even though it has lower rated factory HP (and is 15 years older). GTR's (or any turbo skyline for that matter) are KNOWN to put more hp to the wheels than they are rated at the crank (where as the STI probably puts far less than 300 to the ground). The GTRs traction system and super HICAS makes it a better handler too.

I know you guys think im putting the RB on a untouchable pedestool, because thats exactly what i am doing. Sure you can make a 4 cylinder more powerful than a RB25, but as far as total power potential, i dont think there is a single 4 cylinder motor that can match it. And your not going to persued me unless you show me one with at least 1200hp in a actual car that has been driven on the street(none of this tube chassi drag crap). If you say the supra 2JZGTE motor is better, then ill just whip out my hybrid RB motor argument (3.0 liter RB owns the supra motor).

[PROJECTRB240SX]

YEAH I CAN TRY TO FIND LINKS AND PICS FOR YOU, THEY ARE AROUND. AND I'M TALKING ABOUT BOTH THOSE CARS, THE 2.5RS AND THE NEW STI BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME MOTOR WITH DIFFERENT INTERNALS. PEOPLE IN US HAVE BEEN TUNING THE 2.5RS LIKE THE WAY THE NEW STIS ARE TUNED FOR QUITE SOME TIME. I'M FROM HAWAII, NOW AZ, AND THE JAPANESE IMPORT SCENE AND SUPPORT IS HUGE SO I HAVE SEEN WHAT HAS BEEN DONE WITH SO LITTLE. I BELIEVE THE FIRST 600HP SUBARU IN THE STATES WAS IN HAWAII BACK IN THE MID-90'S. THERE ARE ALOT OF 4 CYL'S THAT CAN COMPETE STRONGLY WITH THE RB BUT YES THE RB HAS A DISTICT ADVANTAGE, 6 CYL'S WITH HIGH TORQUE. I'M NOT ARGUING THAT THE ENGINE ISN'T A GOD-SEND BUT I'M STATING THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 4 CYL'S THAT RUN IN ITS LEAGUE.

[93RPS13]

That 3l RB hybrid kick *** i hope to build that engine in a couple of years

[Bryson]

Not to butt in where I don't know anything.. but doesn't the subaru run like 14 PSI of STOCK boost??? kinda high.. I'd hope it had 300 STOCK with boost like that.. (unless I'm wrong about the stock boost.) I also heard the turbo on em could rival the size of an abalone shell.

[S13 Power]

Isnt the boxter design better than the inline platform for high performance, i think i read somthing along those lines somewhere. You cant just say an engine is better just because it gets more magazine exposure than another, or just becuase more HP has been pumped out of it. Its like saying that a Viper engine is better than a Ferrari F1 engine because some dude made 1000hp. The RB series are top tier,but not perfect. preaty soon youll see wild hp being pumped out of VQ engines, then well probably see you saying..OMG the VQ is number1!! Rb's have been studied from end to end which is in part why people know how to make power easily, but i bet as soon as some of those new engines are put on the table, youll see some crazy shiet.

[Bryson]

I was pretty stoked when I read the HP comming out of the Greddy TT kit on the 350Z... made me want one real bad

[chachi longshot]

If you say the supra 2JZGTE motor is better, then ill just whip out my hybrid RB motor argument (3.0 liter RB owns the supra motor).

Umm, you do know the 2JZ-GTE motor isn't a 4cylender, right? It's an inline 6, just like the RBs. And it is a damn strong motor, just expensive as hell to work on.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

OK:1) HAVE YOUR EVER SEEN ME SAY THAT A MOTOR IS NUMBER ONE?2) AN ENGINE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT3) YES THE STI IS RUNNING 14 PSI BUT THE TURBO HAS BEEN KNOWN TO PUSH 20 WITH NO PROBLEMS4) THIS IS A 4 CYL TO RB I6 DEBATE5) I KNOW THE RB IS GREAT I AM JUST SAYING THAT THERE ARE 4 CYLS OUT THERE THAT ARE RUNNING IN ITS LEAGUE6) CHACHI THATS WHAT I WAS WONDERING7) VIPER TO FERRARI F1 IS TWO DIFFERENT PLAYING FIELDS8) THE VQ IS A GREAT PLATFORM AND ITS GOING TO BE GETTING ALOT OF ATTENTION REAL SOON9) THIS IS ALL AN OPINIONATED DEBATE

[93RPS13]

Umm, you do know the 2JZ-GTE motor isn't a 4cylender, right? It's an inline 6, just like the RBs. And it is a damn strong motor, just expensive as hell to work on.

i think he knows that

[Nameless EJ6]

Umm, you do know the 2JZ-GTE motor isn't a 4cylender, right? It's an inline 6, just like the RBs. And it is a damn strong motor, just expensive as hell to work on.

With the information and knowledge he has given so far, do you really think he's that stupid? He is speaking about that motor because it is comparable to the RB series engines. Both I6.. both turbo. Get it?

Anyways, I heard the words "unlimited potential" and "flat four" in this thread. This is obviously getting out of control. No engine has unlimited potential. The STi engine may have some decent potential.. but definetely not unlimited. I do think it is comparable displacement wise, but in the end of all modifications, the RB F/I engine is going to overcome basically any 4 cylinder F/I engine.

So lets get further into detail. I don't think it is being understood that having two extra cylinders is also a big advantage - modified or not. And what's even BETTER, is that it is a straight 6 cylinder. Honestly, I think it's safe to say a straight 6 cylinder engine is more "balanced" than 4 cylinders, which makes it better to modify. Its configuration makes it an almost perfect engine design, which is why people have squeezed big amounts of power and torque from them.

If you want to know exactly what I mean - they have a longer crankshaft with more balanced rotational force (I'm speaking about counterweight offset here in relation to the stroke timing of each rod/piston if you didn't notice), and that makes them so much stronger than a 4 cylinder, even after modifications. So despite the fact that the displacement on a straight 6 cyl and a 4 cyl may be the same, the straight 6 cylinders design makes them superior and stronger. That is the biggest reason you can make so much more power on them than a 4 cylinder.

So...., my point is that the RB engine, along with its design, is really not comparable to any 4 cylinder when modified. It WILL overcome a 4 cylinder in the end. And I think J-Spec Tuner would agree.

This is why I have decided to forget the MR2. Well there are a few other reasons actually. And it's not because I dislike 4 cylinders. After all, I drive a well balanced engine right now capable of 8400 rpms....

[PROJECTRB240SX]

ULIMITED POTENTIAL WAS A MISTAKE I MY PART I SHOULD HAVE SAID UNLIMITED SUPPORT, THEY MAKE ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF FOR THE EJ20 AND EJ25. FLAT FOURS ARE COMPARIBLE IN EVERY WAY TO AN I6, THEY BOTH PUT OUT SIMILAR TORQUE TO DISPLACEMENT RATIOS, THEY BOTH CAN ACHIEVE HIGH HORSEPOWER. AND IN THE END 2 CYLINDERS DOESN'T MATTER, ITS ALL UP TO THE BUILDER. YOU CAN GIVE TWO PEOPLE $5K AND GET TWO DIFFERENT OUTCOMES. ONE ENGINE MIGHT HAVE A MAJOR HP INCREASE AND THE OTHER MIGHT BE BUILT FOR ENDURANCE AND LASTING POWER, SO YES IT IS ALL UP TO THE ENGINE BUILDER. AND FLAT FOURS HAVE A GRAVITY AND WEIGHT DIPLACEMENT ADVANTAGE OVER I6 GIVE IT EVEN MORE OF AN EDGE. LIKE I SAID EARLIER IT IS ALL AN OPINION, BECAUSE YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT, IF YOU HAD THE TIME AND MONEY.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

TO ANSWER AN EARLIER QUESTION YES A BOXTER IS BETTER FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE BECAUSE IT LOWERS THE CENTER OF GRAVITY, MAINTAINS BALANCE, EVENS OUT THE WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION AND DOESN'T MAKE THE PISTONS FIGHT GRAVITY DURING ITS TRAVEL. THIS IS ALSO THE SAME REASONS WHY ROTORIES ARE SUCH GREAT RACING ENGINES.

[Siddhartha]

Pistons still fight gravity in a way, there is a horizontal load on the pistons. They don't fight it in a vertical motion though, they are actually fighting the friction created by gravity (Boxter engine). This is one reason inline motors tend to lose less horsepower through the drivetrain, as they don't have to fight both friction and gravity as much as a V engine . Admittedly, the boxter engine design does put the engine in a better postion for a more balanced car. I think the boxter engine's losses are less than the inline's tho.

Boxter > Inline > V

But not for all apps.

I could be wrong, if I am, tho, prove you're right (anyone)...

TIA

[Nameless EJ6]

TO ANSWER AN EARLIER QUESTION YES A BOXTER IS BETTER FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE BECAUSE IT LOWERS THE CENTER OF GRAVITY, MAINTAINS BALANCE, EVENS OUT THE WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION AND DOESN'T MAKE THE PISTONS FIGHT GRAVITY DURING ITS TRAVEL. THIS IS ALSO THE SAME REASONS WHY ROTORIES ARE SUCH GREAT RACING ENGINES.

Fighting gravity has nothing to do with it. This is counterweight we're talking about. With the amount of force on the pistons, it really wouldn't matter if there was gravity at all. It is still not as balanced as a straight 6.

Research primary and secondary balance and you'll understand what I mean.

A 4 cylinder has primary balance, meaning the counterweights offset the momentum rotational force on the piston and rods. Sounds weird, but it's true.

V6's have secondary balance. One pistons force offsets/balances the movement of another.

Straight 6's have BOTH.

So neither engine is as smooth or as stong as an inline 6. The inline 6 is a very harmonic engine. It is STRONG and much more reliable at high power output. I still don't think you understand what I'm saying..

[Bryson]

I understand what your sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes perfect sense if you think about it.

[MrFox]

Elborating on EJ6s comments, Opposed 4 cyl are slightly smoother than Inline 4 cyl. I4s "hop" on its secondary vibrations, whereas O4s "rock" back and forth, which is considerably less disruptive in terms of vibration/balance.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

YES THANK YOU, FLAT FOURS ALMOST CURE THE FOUR CYLINDER BALANCE ISSUES. THIS IS WHY SUBARU HAS STUCK WITH THEIR ENGINE FOR WELL OVER WHAT GOING ON 10 YEARS+. ANYWAY I SEE YOUR POINT AND I'M JUST SAYING THAT FLAT FOURS ARE FAR DIFFERENT THAN INLINE FOURS. HAVE YOU SEEN THE TRAVEL MOTION OF A FLAT FOUR? ITS LIKE BOXING, WITH FOUR ARMS BUT BESIDES THE POINT, TWO ARMS GO OUT AND THE OPPOSING TWO RETURN TO KEEP THE CENTER OF THE ENGINE BALANCED FROM THE NOW OFFSET BALANCE FROM THE TWO THAT WENT OUT ALMOST ELIMINATING ENGINE MOTION. AND ASK ANY SUBARU OR PORSCHE ENTHUSIAST FLAT 4 AND 6'S ARE SOME OF THE SMOOTHEST ENGINES AROUND. BUT I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING.

[Nameless EJ6]

Glad you see my point. But still, ANY 4 cylinder is not as balanced as a straight 6.

If I were to post a picture looking down on the end of a 4 cylinder, straight 6, and a v6 crankshaft, you'd see exactly what I mean.

[Nameless EJ6]

But smoothness.. smoothness can be acheived on any engine these days. With a balance shaft of course...

[Onizuka]

which robs your engine of power...