Stock Speaker Limitations

[aznlovshrimp]

Alright so I just installed a pioneer avh-p4100dvd double din into my 01 pathfinder. I used the amp adapter from crutchfield and left the stock bose speaker system alone. I adjusted the gain levels to my liking, however with songs with loud bass the song gets distorted. My EQ is at the lowest/basic setting with possible +1 of bass and this occurs almost 3/4 volume (gain from the adapter is not even turned halfway). Anyone tweak their stock speakers to get good loud bass. Or am I at my stock speakers' limit? My last last last resort is upgrade the stock speakers. Any suggestions are very much appreciated!

[Innovazn]

Alright so I just installed a pioneer avh-p4100dvd double din into my 01 pathfinder. I used the amp adapter from crutchfield and left the stock bose speaker system alone. I adjusted the gain levels to my liking, however with songs with loud bass the song gets distorted. My EQ is at the lowest/basic setting with possible +1 of bass and this occurs almost 3/4 volume (gain from the adapter is not even turned halfway). Anyone tweak their stock speakers to get good loud bass. Or am I at my stock speakers' limit? My last last last resort is upgrade the stock speakers. Any suggestions are very much appreciated!

uhm... how high is the volume sitting again? haha...

and to behonest, when i my head unit and sub in i just went all out and got aftermarket speakers.... its a mobile club now....

[aznlovshrimp]

haha, my 3/4s but in reality it wasn't that loud because the gains on the amp adapter is not even at half so it's not that loud at all

[skulboep]

I just installed the 4100DVD in my 2002 Pathy - definitely a sweet unit. Anyway, your problem isn't the headunit or the adapter -- it's the stock speakers. The amplifier built into the 4100DVD (or any aftermarket headunit for that matter) is meant to work with speakers that send a 4 ohm load to the unit.

What you probably don't know is that the stock Bose speakers in any 2001 - 2004 Pathfinder are coupled to proprietary Bose amplifiers (one hidden in each front door panel and one in the L rear trunk panel). These amplifiers use weird impedences and send a load other than 4 ohms back to the head unit. Additionally, because the 4100DVD has it's own built in amplifier, the signal is in fact being amplified twice (a second time by the Bose amplifiers) before reaching the speakers. This is harmful to the headunit and can in fact irreversibly damage it at higher volume levels.

The easiest solution without totally redoing the entire system would be to replace Bose speakers altogether making sure to bypass the stock Bose amplifiers when hooking the new speakers up. When doing this also get rid of that stupid line output converter harness that Crutchfield includes with the Pathfinder gear and install a regular harness.

Let us know how it goes!

[aznlovshrimp]

I apologize in advance, installing the p4100dvd was my first car stereo install. my question is keeping the stock amp will work with aftermarket speakers? and when you mean bypass the stock amps just connect the new aftermarket speakers to the headunit with the audio hookups in the back of HU? I am new to this but I am willing to learn and try to get the best sound with the least money spent.

[skulboep]

No worries on this being your first install, there's always a first time for everybody!

First a couple questions/points:
1.) Did you install your 4100DVD using that bulky "line output converter" harness that Crutchfield includes with the 4100?
- if so, you can still salvage the harness and use it, but you need to get rid of the "line output converter" part (the big bulky black plastic piece with small gain knobs on it). Simply cut the wires that feed into this big black piece. Then connect these free wires into the harness of the 4100DVD. Obviously some wires on the Pioneer harness will not be used (unless you have a rearview camera, bluetooth, etc.). Salvaging this harness will save you some $$. Alternatively you could call Crutchfield and tell them that they sent you the wrong harness - specify that you don't need the Line Output Converter version of the Nissan harness.
2.) Did you know that the Pioneer 4100DVD is easily "bypassable" so that you can watch DVDs while you're driving? Yes I am aware this is a stupid idea, but a cool concept in theory if you have friends/kids in the car. Normally the unit only lets you watch DVDs and use other functions (such as setting audio parameters) when the parking brake is applied. There is an EXTREMELY SIMPLE was to bypass this circuitry in order to "trick" the unit into thinking the parking brake is applied while you're driving. I can give you more details on this if you're interested in doing this. If so, this should be done at the same time in which you are installing the head unit, harness, etc.

Most aftermarket headunits have built-in amplifiers that are made to accept a 4 ohm load from each speaker. Therefore most aftermarket car audio speakers are designed to be 4 ohm speakers. Bose decided to be a bunch of jackasses and make speakers with proprietary impedances (i.e. not 4 ohm loads) that only work well with other Bose components. This is not to say that they will not work at all with other gear, they just won't work as well as they are supposed to. Since I planned on ditching the Bose speakers from the beginning, I never bothered to do research on the actual load that the stock Bose speakers used in the Pathfinders have. If the load is 4 ohms, then you can certainly use them with the 4100DVD without a problem. To do this you would "bypass" the in-door Bose amplifiers. This means you would cut the speaker wire just before the amplifier and connect the wire directly to the speakers (you'll probably need some spare speaker wire to stretch the length).

If your research shows that the Bose speakers are in fact not 4 ohm, I think you should HIGHLY consider aftermarket speakers. Once you get in the door panel and see how s*** the stock Bose speakers are made (paper cones, cheap metal baskets, etc.) you will hate Bose for life and wonder why people consider them good quality equipment. If you ever sell the vehicle you can always pull your aftermarket speakers out and replace them with the Bose crap. Seeing as the 4100DVD is a $550 headunit, it'd be a shame to see your system go to waste with sub-optimal speakers. If you're looking for something that is easy to install, sounds great and isn't too expensive try a set of Kenwood, Pioneer or Infinity 6.5" coaxials. For a little extra money, however, I would go with Polk Audio coaxials. Polks generally have higher power handling and will be capable of accepting more power without blowing if you ever decide to upgrade your system with an aftermarket amp.

Let me know how it goes.

[deepess]

Skulboep did an excellent job explaining the process.
I would add that on any Pioneer deck you can adjust the frequencies for the Low, mid, and highs. Plus there is a low pass and high pass filter built into the stereo. Since I didn't see where you installed any subs, I would change the frequency for the Low to about 80 Hz. This frequency most speakers can play. Anything lower will be of no use to you unless it is for your subs. If you do have subs, turn on the High Pass filter (only letting that freq and above come through) to 80 Hz and adjust as necessary. I have a PIO AVICZ2 in my 05 pathfinder. The Bose system is still installed however, mine has the amplifier under the drivers seat for the interior 6 speakers. The factory subs are removed and I have installed 2 12" woofers. Also, I used to work in the car audio industry for years. I do this as a hobby and it somewhat goes along with being an EE. :-)
You will have to take some time playing with frequencies and loudness to see what you like. Pioneer and Alpine headunits are extremely great (in my opinion) and you can destroy speakers easily if you don't set the stereo up correctly.

[aznlovshrimp]

Alright looks like I will be buying 2 paris of Polk speakers (db651s) from crutchfield at a decent price. now my question is how to connect the new speakers straight to the p4100dvd using rca cables? i have seen this done in a few of my friends' cars, but is that because they have amps? i tried googling this but didnt get anywhere. you said to ditch the amp adapter? not to be rude but why? haha

[deepess]

The easiest way is to run speaker wire from the head unit all the way through the door to where the speakers are installed. Use Good speaker wire (i.e. Monster cable or something of that quality). The better the quality wire the better the sound. Use a wire hanger to go from inside the door through the wire hose (for lack of knowing the real name of it) and into the truck. Attach your speaker wire to one and pull through.
RCA cables area low level output and are only to be used for connection to an amp. If you don't have a 4 channel amp (each channel is for each interior speaker) then run speaker wires. Which will be why you don't need the inline convertor. The convertor drops your high output signal to a low one for the amp to use. When you have a signal going into an amp you want a clean one (not a lot of distortion). That's why we use RCA's.
I hope I did a decent job explaining. Good luck.

[aznlovshrimp]

so by removing the black box (gain adjuster) i would be basically connecting the headunit straight to the factory amp?

[deepess]

depends...yes i know thats not what you wanted to hear.
If you have a separate factory amp per speaker, and you are not running new wire to each speaker directly from the pioneer harness to the speaker in the door then yes you are. personally, I say use the factory amp. You technically want the door speakers to play loud enough to hear over road noise and subs. That's where you have to set up the gains and frequencies on the stereo. Also, by using the factory amp you don't have to run speaker wire to the speaker just wire around the converter box like skulboep said. Crutchfield generally will sell you the safest way to do the connection and not the best acoustic way. Mainly because they would have to explain your options (pros and cons). So I don't blame them but you are doing what you should. Ask questions.

[skulboep]

OK I will try my best to explain this without getting overly complicated:

1.) No you cannot use RCAs without using an aftermarket amplifier. RCAs are used to take the audio signal from the headunit to the amplifier where it can be amplified. This amplified signal is then sent to the speakers via speaker wire. Keep in mind that your headunit has a BUILT-IN amplifier (albeit a relatively weak one). When RCAs are connected, this internal amplifier is bypassed and the the signal is sent to the aftermarket amplifier (because like I said earlier, you don't want to send the signal through 2 amplifiers). Therefore if you don't plan on using an aftermarket amplifier, you will be relying on the amplifier in the 4100DVD and will want to BYPASS the in-door stock Bose amplifiers.

2.) The Polks you selected are a great chioce in that price range. They will come with adapter plates that will allow them to be mounted directly in the factory speaker rings. When get into the front door panels you will notice that the amplifier for the speaker is mounting directly adjacent to the speaker ring. You will see a set of speaker wires going to the amplifier and another set of speaker wires going from the amplifier to the speaker. The wires going to the amplifier use proprietary connectors where they plug in. Simply cut the connectors off these wires and directly connect the wire going TO the amplifier to the speaker (effectively "bypassing" the amplifier). You may have to use a small extension wire if your cut wire is too short to reach the speaker. Use any kind of connection you are comfortable with, however I recommend soldering connections and then covering with heatshrink. Use female disconnects to connect the wire to the speaker.

This solution is probably the easiest (and cheapest way) to get your system sounding good. This enables you to use the factory wiring and utilizes the power supply from your headunit while bypassing the Bose amps. In this scenario the "black box" (line output converter) from your Crutchfield harness is NOT used because your aftermarket speakers present a constant 4 ohm load to your headunit.

[skulboep]

I am just now reading some of the above posts.

In order to further clarify, a Line Output Converter is used to modify the voltage coming from an aftermarket headunit that is to be used with amplifier/speaker systems that present "weird" (i.e. not 4 ohm --> Bose) loads to the headunit. As mentioned above, playing a signal through 2 amplifiers is not good because it a.) sounds bad and b.) can damage the headunit. A Line Output Converter reduces the already-amplified signal ("output") coming from an aftermarket headunit (remember all aftermarket headunits have built-in amplifiers) to an acceptable voltage so that it can be safely re-amplified by the built-in stock amplifiers (in this case the in-door Bose amplifiers). In general this solution does not sound very good, but allows for easy installation and will safely allow aftermarket headunits to work with vehicles that have proprietary Bose (or other) stock audio systems. This is why you were having sound quailty issues when you installed your 4100DVD.

Crutchfield includes the Line Output Converter harness with all vehicles that have Bose systems because it allows for easy installation of aftermarket headunits (they know that most people are probably not willing to remove door panels, replace speakers and bypass stock amplifiers). In your case if you are indeed putting in some Polks, then you will definitely want to throw away the Line Output Converter portion of your harness and bypass the stock amplifiers as discussed.

[skulboep]

Deepess raises some interesting points above. I personally have no experience in using the factory in-door amplifiers, but have heard of people who have with great success. I therefore can't give you any advice on how to safely use these amps with your headunit. As descibed above, the Line Output Converter that Crutchfield includes allows you to safely use the factory in-door amplifiers, but with a significant cost to sound quality (as you already know). Plus the amplifier built into the 4100DVD should be more than enough to give you good sound.

The easy thing about your install is that you can easily use the pre-existing stock speaker wire -- simply "jump" from the speaker wire going to the in-door amp directly to the speaker. I must mention, however, that this may get tricky with the rear door amp. There is only one amplifier to serve both rear door speakers and it is in the rear trunk panel (meaning that you have to remove this panel to access the amp -- a huge PITA).

When I got my Pathy last September, my original plan was to simply replace the stock Bose speakers with aftermarket Polks that I had in a previous vehicle. Then I discovered that my factory Bose HU fell plague to the famed "ERR3" message code that rendered my stereo as non-functional. When I bought a new headunit (the Pioneer AVH-P4100DVD), I discovered many of the same issues that you are asking about. Unfortunately, because of all the integrated Bose equipment, the only way I could guarantee myself a trouble-free system was to redo EVERYTHING: aftermarket speakers, amplifiers, headunit, wiring, etc.

After finally completing everything and getting a chance to examine all the wiring, it turns out that the method I described to you above would have sufficed perfectly fine for me. However, removing the rear trunk panel, bypassing amps, soldering connections, etc., etc., etc. seemed like almost as much work as installing a new amp and laying new wires to the doors. So in short, for a little extra work and cash, I got a system that sounds absolutely amazing.

I don't think you have to lay new wiring. In fact, feeding speaker wires through the doors of my Pathfinder was absolutely the biggest PITA I have ever dealt with in car audio (namely the front doors). Obviously you will have to lay new wire if you go with an aftermarket amp, but that is a whole other discussion.

Let me know if you have any other questions, hope this helps!

[iPath]

If I was going to redo the speaker system I would leave the 6 disc changer in there and just upgrade the speakers.

[aznlovshrimp]

First of all, I forgot to thank everyone for helping me with the advice they are giving!! Ok so one last thing before I receive and install the new speakers, the part about the amp is still a bit fuzzy. So i will not be using the amps hooked up to the individual speakers, however the main factory amp and head unit amp will be used to power the new aftermarket speakers? Thanks again everyone!!

[deepess]

Just use the stereo. It will give a clean signal. Plus Pioneer has internal amp inside of it. The Loudness is there and you can set it to low, mid, or high.

[fueler]

i was going to say, you can use a JL audio cleansweep if you really love the stock deck and stock speakers, but for the same price you could install a deck and have all your headaches behind you.

Because even if you install a cleansweep, I guarantee you will be ripping everything out 6 months from now to replace everything (MORE POWER) thats just how car audio goes!

[skulboep]

Just to clarify:

There is no single "main" factory amp in the Pathfinders. Instead there is a single "mini" amp for each front speaker in each door directly adjacent to the speaker and a single "mini" amp in the left rear trunk panel to serve both rear speakers (3 factory amps in total serving the 4 speakers).

So you use the amplifier built-in to your aftermarket (Pioneer AVH-P4100DVD) headunit to power all 4 speakers. To do this you must bypass the 2 in-door front amps and the single left rear quarter panel amp.

[deepess]

Just to clarify:

There is no single "main" factory amp in the Pathfinders. Instead there is a single "mini" amp for each front speaker in each door directly adjacent to the speaker and a single "mini" amp in the left rear trunk panel to serve both rear speakers (3 factory amps in total serving the 4 speakers).

So you use the amplifier built-in to your aftermarket (Pioneer AVH-P4100DVD) headunit to power all 4 speakers. To do this you must bypass the 2 in-door front amps and the single left rear quarter panel amp.

This is why I love the 2005 models and up. There is one amplifier under the driver's seat. Much easier.

[aznlovshrimp]

yeah i was at work thinking about it, and the way you guys were talking about the amp"S" i should have figured it out. yeah now i realize there is no main amp. this stuff is getting easier to understand to you guys. yeah about the power thing, i have a feeling i will go all out on the system and get an amp w/subs. but due to lack of finances not now....but that is so true about the power!! polks coming in thursday I will let you guys know!

[deepess]

great!! More Power Arghh arghh arghh (Tim Allen Laugh)

[aznlovshrimp]

alright guys, i have the front two speakers in. however i have no clue where the rear amp is located? how will i connect the the speakers with the factory harness. i have to cut it and splice it to fit the polk speakers connectors. it sounds good but i am a bit lost in the rear end of this installation. thanks again guys

[aznlovshrimp]

nevermind, i found a diagram of the general area where the amp is located. i will take a look at it tomorrow, btw i called crutchfield today because i could not figure out which wire to hook up the speaker too! and they helped me out a lot great support over there!

[aznlovshrimp]

ok so the installation is all done, thanks for everyone helping me out. the new speakers are waaaay better than the stock. it was even better after a few tweaks to with the eq. also big thanks to the crutchfield support team. they definitely came through with the small details (matching up wire colors to positive and negative). the system sounds the way i want it too and great bass on the polks too!!

[corymoto]

Fantastic post(s)!

But, I still don't understand why we all can't just 'adapt' the bizarro ohms from the factory amplified bose speakers to work with a new head unit (I'm a ME, not an EE!)

I've got 150K on my QX4 and don't want to spend too much time or $$. I'm quite capable of soldering, and would imagine that I could use my multimeter to find out how many ohms the bose amps/speakers require, and then solder in some caps or resistors or ??? inline at the wiring harness. I prefer not to open the door panels (or I''d just be replacing the speaker or bypassing the amps) So try to think center console only...