steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start without starting fluid!!!

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:23 am

Like the title says, I now have steady fuel pressure again (for the time being), good spark (all coils tested and new plugs put in), and it still just turns unless I give it some starting fluid. Then, it just burns the starting fluid and dies in a few seconds. It's running worse than yesterday. Atleast then it held an idle for 30 seconds or more sometimes.

Anywayz, I am losing my mind here. Something has got to be missing from this start-up scenario!!

--TJ
Modified by s13_240_rb20 at 9:48 AM 2/28/2008

Post by **tlkq** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:39 am

Your problem sounds similar to mine. Unplug your maf and crank it

Post by **craz4240** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:41 pm

Dude pull your CAS off.....spin it around...assure your fuel injectors are clicking.

Post by **Carl H** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:17 pm

if its sparking then the cas is working, it sounds like a power routing issue.

Post by **M374llic4** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:34 pm

If it run on starting fluid only for a few seconds, then it sounds like air and spark are ok, but maybe fuel delivery is messed in some way?

Post by **danstachet** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:44 pm

I'm not to sure how to set the CAS on the RB, but if its anything like the SR then its prolly not installed properly. Look up the proper procedure on setting the CAS and then try. Sounds identical to the problem my buddy had when his SR wouldn't start.

Post by **S14-NEO** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:17 pm

backwards fuel lines..no injector pulse aka negative pulsing groudn coming from the ecu....check it with a noid light

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:30 pm

S14-NEO wrote:backwards fuel lines..no injector pulse aka negative pulsing groudn coming from the ecu....check it with a noid light

I'm pretty sure my fuel lines are right. When pump is on, the fuel flows to the metal tube that goes to the back of the rail. Then after the rail, there is my nismo FPR, and then the return line. If weather permits, I'll be looking into that CAS thing in the FSM again and try that. I assume that testing the CAS will also help determine if the injectors are working AND getting the pulse to make them work??

It may be the same thing...but....what about timing? can timing be so horribly off that the motor won't run??

--TJ

Post by **S14-NEO** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:54 am

negative, if it will fire up with starting fluid then it will def run if its getting the proper supply of fuel.yes by removing the CAS and spinnging the end witht he ignition on and listening for the injectors to click will tell you if you have working injectors and or bad injector drives on your ECU.

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:08 am

S14-NEO wrote:negative, if it will fire up with starting fluid then it will def run if its getting the proper supply of fuel.yes by removing the CAS and spinnging the end witht he ignition on and listening for the injectors to click will tell you if you have working injectors and or bad injector drives on your ECU.

Ok...I took off the 3 bolts holding the CAS on, and I see the shaft sticking out towards the motor. When I spin the shaft, I hear the injector(s) click. I'll go back later when it is not raining on me and check each injector individually for the click.

soooo...even if a few injectors aren't working (which is worst case scenario), the car should atleast roughly idle, right?

That was just a thought...now on to my main question: Exactly how do I use my CAS to check or set timing (or advance timing, whatever)??? Can I assume that my timing is off because of the following?

1...have spark on all coils2...have new ngk-whatever (recommended by carl H) plugs3...have air (or it wouldn't respond to starting fluid (as stated in earlier post??)4...I hear a "click" from the injectors area when I turned the CAS shaft 5...I have steady fuel pressure, even during cranking between 36-38 psi6...btw, I have also pulled all my injectors and "tapped" the trash out of them so that their filter is clean; I also put in 2 fuel filters yesterday to prevent further trash buildup.....has no effect on fuel pressure, so I guess I am ok.

--TJ

Website · Post by **USMCgetsome** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:51 am

ok simple steps. If this is a fuel problem. Start by checking the 12vdc signal and ecu pluse signal (12vdc/0vdc off on like a relay). After u verify that u could look at removing the cas and spining it. Ensure u mark its position before u remove it. I had this same issue. exactly the same. Came down to my injector 12vdc power wire and the ground to my coil pack!

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:17 pm

KUILLIN_DRIFTER wrote:ok simple steps. If this is a fuel problem. Start by checking the 12vdc signal and ecu pluse signal (12vdc/0vdc off on like a relay). After u verify that u could look at removing the cas and spining it. Ensure u mark its position before u remove it. I had this same issue. exactly the same. Came down to my injector 12vdc power wire and the ground to my coil pack!

I'm going to work now, but if its not raining in the morning I'll check the voltages while spinning the shaft. I'll have to use my FSM to figure out the 2 wires on each injector....which one is the ground??

oh ya.....too late to mark where my CAS was lined up...lol it's already off..

--TJ

Post by **Bluefire** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:24 pm

Heres an even simpler way... pull your plugs and see if their wet with fuel... If after a few cranks of the motor your plugs aren't wet then you got injector problems

Post by **rbsileighty** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:09 pm

Bluefire wrote:Heres an even simpler way... pull your plugs and see if their wet with fuel... If after a few cranks of the motor your plugs aren't wet then you got injector problems

2nd this quick check... sounds like you need to make sure you're not running lean on start/idle for some reason (which is the base for a lot of the proposed fixes)

A really good place to start... what mods do you have already installed on the car (engine only)

Can you get it started and running "normal" outside of idle/start after using the starter fluid?

Quote »I now have steady fuel pressure again (for the time being), [/quote]This makes me think it hasn't always been this way... what's happened up until now? History helps...

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:05 pm

It's the typical RB20DET swap with the basic requirements:

Nismo FPRNGK plugsBosch 040 fuel pump

Ya, at one point I was having fuel pressure dropping out during cranking but steady when not cranking. I am still stratching my head on that one.

The car won't idle on its own. It only responds to the starting fluid, then dies. It turns over very smoothly (not like a rough "trying-to-start").

I think I will try to measure the voltage on the injectors the next morning that it is not raining. I'd rather be more accurate and hopefully not have to pull the new plugs back out to check for gas. I can smell the gas from the exhaust when I am trying to crank.

--TJ

Post by **Shocker** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:35 am

how old is the fuel you are trying to use? it could be bad, thus not starting with it... I take it shes firing up with the starting fluid only for a few seconds then stalling out?

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:49 am

Shocker wrote:how old is the fuel you are trying to use? it could be bad, thus not starting with it... I take it shes firing up with the starting fluid only for a few seconds then stalling out?

Yep..will try some new gas...it's worth a shot. I can use Datascan to turn my pump on and let it flow into a bucket...lol Just have to leave jumper cables on the battery to keep it charged...

--TJ

Post by **Shocker** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:55 am

s13_240_rb20 wrote:
Yep..will try some new gas...it's worth a shot. I can use Datascan to turn my pump on and let it flow into a bucket...lol Just have to leave jumper cables on the battery to keep it charged...

--TJ

hopefully that is your problem! good luck.

Post by **tedmarley100** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:44 am

i know this might sound silly but try and check all you connectors. i once did and engine swap and forgot to connector one plug. i lost 1500bucks to a fuc##ng plug because the car had to be towed to the dealer. Check for rust at the ecu connectors and do not back prob it with the meter because you could fry the ecu.

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:24 am

Shocker wrote:how old is the fuel you are trying to use? it could be bad, thus not starting with it... I take it shes firing up with the starting fluid only for a few seconds then stalling out?

Ok...well, I tried to start it with starting fluid for about 10 minutes today and it wouldn't even respond to the starting fluid (even with the pump turned OFF to prevent flooding). So I decided to pull a spark plug and low-and-behold!!!!! Look what my 2-day old spark plug looks like:

If you can't tell, it is black as hell and reeks of gas...I have drained my tank now, but I'm going to clean these plugs and put in fresh gas before I try it again...

--TJ

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:18 am

Ok...It is wayyyyy past my bedtime. I have to get up in 4 and half hours and work all night, so I doubt I'll be working on the car in the morning at 7a.m.

Anyways...as I mentioned above, I went ahead and cleaned my new plugs by scraping that crap off of them. I drained my gas tank by using the Datascan "fuel pump ON" trick and pumping it to a bucket, then put in new gas.

It starts up again, but the idle is loping down close to dying alot and it has some smoke. I adjusted my CAS by ear for the smoothest idle and adjusted my idle nut to do the same. That set the idle around 1100-1500, which is just high enough to keep it from dying but it still lopes up and down.

Now this is where the fun stuff starts!!!!! Time for Datascan to help me figure this out....

1...Right off the bat, I noticed that my Oxygen reading is steady at 33 and it NEVER changes, even if I rev. I have my gut-feeling about this..lol

2...Using the "active test" in Datascan, I found 2 things I can change that, together, get rid of the smoke AND stop the loping!!! My AAC reading is 63, but I set it to 39. My A/F Base reading is 100, but I set it to 79.

My settings were random numbers, "tuning by ear", but they made an obvious improvement by stopping the loping idle AND stopping the smoking. Am I correct to assume that a bad O2 sensor will cause the car to have a loping idle and the AAC valve tries to correct that (by adjusting uneven vaccuum)???

I have no idea what-so-ever what AAC does, but I am hoping that someone can look at those two adjustments and their drastic improvement and will be able to give me some good advice.

btw, I have not tried to drive it yet. I didn't feel like pushing it back into the yard today if it died on me.

--TJ

Post by **craz4240** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:03 pm

Carl H wrote:if its sparking then the cas is working, it sounds like a power routing issue.

Yeah i mean't to see if the injectors are operational.

Also very nice man..

Sounds like she is running pig rich.

The AAC valve controls air at idle.

Post by **Boosted6** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:16 pm

I just got a rb20det s13 together and running about 3 days ago. We had some similar problems with it. When we first got it to run it was missing and running extremely rich. It also wouldn't idle. What we eventually did to correct all these problems were remove the ignitor and cleaned the terminals on it and the plugs that go to it. We had found that the ignitor terminals were covered in corrosion on terminals 2 and 3 which was causing coils 2 and 3 to not recieve the signal to fire and causing the dead miss. After that we re-routed the b.o.v. back behind the mass air sensor. When we recieved the engine it didn't have a recirc. hose on it at all. This was causing it to flood. Especially after revving the car and releasing. As far as your idle problems try to just unplug your aac valve on the back of the intake manifold. A lot of times these are faulty and won't let the correct amount of air to bypass causing a high or very unstable idle. So just simply unplug it. Set your C.A.S. back to the middle position. Your ecu will auto correct your timing. Their dummy proof. No offense. LoL. If you have anymore problems just let me know. This is my second rb20det to s13 build and the first one I had to re-wire completely so I have no fear when it comes to these engines. Let me know whats up. Btw here's a pic of the most recent finished car. http://viewmorepics.myspace.co...28110
Modified by Boosted6 at 3:48 PM 2/22/2008

Post by **Shocker** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:25 pm

well I'm glad she fired up for you then, so it was the cleaning of the new plugs and new gas that did it?

Post by **s13_240_rb20** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:56 pm

Shocker wrote:well I'm glad she fired up for you then, so it was the cleaning of the new plugs and new gas that did it?

ya, but it still isn't drivable. the idle is unsteady, keeps trying to die. I think it is going lean and bogging out when I rev....my "oxygen reading" in datascan should be fluctuating right?? I am assuming that is from my oxygen sensor...

--TJ

Post by **craz4240** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:11 am

s13_240_rb20 wrote:
ya, but it still isn't drivable. the idle is unsteady, keeps trying to die. I think it is going lean and bogging out when I rev....my "oxygen reading" in datascan should be fluctuating right?? I am assuming that is from my oxygen sensor...

--TJ

Like said are all your coils firing??Is your BOV recirced....have you checked for vacum leaks?

Post by **Shocker** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:02 am

are you running a stock ECU?

Post by **tlkq** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:08 am

I'm going to ask you one more time if you have checked your MAF.

Unplug it and try to crank it

Post by **danstachet** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:36 am

i had a problem similar to this with my SR, checked everything... tried a different ECU, put a noid light on the injector plugs... yada yada yada... came down to being a leaky injector. Put new o rings on and bada bing, it was good as new.

Post by **Carl H** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:50 pm

what colour are your injector tops?perhaps you have larger than stock injectors and dont know it?

steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start without starting fluid!!!

coils spark, steady fuel when idling, no start without starting fluid!!!

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (M374llic4)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (danstachet)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (S14-NEO)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (S14-NEO)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (S14-NEO)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (KUILLIN_DRIFTER)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (Bluefire)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (rbsileighty)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (Shocker)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good spark, still no start wi ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: steady fuel pressure, have good sp ... (Shocker)

idles again....now for the Datascan troubleshooting readings...

Re: (Carl H)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (Boosted6)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (Shocker)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (s13_240_rb20)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (craz4240)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (Shocker)

Re: idles again....now for the Datascan trou ... (tlkq)

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