Startup Fail.. any info would be helpful

[fivehunsky]

Hey everybody.. Ive got a problem and searching didnt help it.. haha

Here is the story.. I just picked up a ca18det auto s13.. It was swapped and ran great. The previous owner then destroyed a rod bearing and had a new ca installed by someone else..

Correct me if Im wrong in assuming this but.. The engine that replaced it was apparently from a fwd car because one valve cover is different than a regular rwd turbo valve cover(no breather) and he showed me his "extra" intake and it is a crossover style like the rb20/25.. the throttle body would be over the top of the engine.. It does say turbo on the fwd intake tho so thats good..

Okay, so, since it has been swapped he has never gotten it to run. He had someone else do it and the job they did was okay but a little shoddy.. Ive seen worse tho..

The problem:Ive spent a couple days with the car and here are the symptoms

The car tries to start but only pops and sputters.. Sometimes it will actually run but it sounds like only two cylinders are hitting. I actually unplugged one and three and nothing changed while it was running.

Ive pulled all the coilpacks off and checked for spark.. Its intermittent but it seems that only 2 and 4 are firing.. I have had one and three seem to want to but its real weak and isnt as often as it should be..

Now, Im pretty sure the problem is somewhere in the electrical. Ive sprayed starting fluid into the filter and it didnt help that much.. made it pop off slightly quicker but didnt allow anything to go.. I had my wife continuously spray it while I tried to get it to rev and even with the extra fuel it wouldnt lite more than two cylinders.

I have two full wiring harnesses.. two ignitors.. and two ecu's.. I have swapped the ecu's out and it didnt help.. I have swapped ignitors out and it didnt help..

At one point none of the cylinders were firing and the ignitor got really hot.. only for a short period did this happen tho.. now its back to doing what it did before..

I dont have another cas to change out.. I have pulled it off and checked it.. Ive rotated it around and played with the ignition timing to see if it helped but it didnt.. Ive also checked the plug on the cas and it was okay..

I also noticed that the o2 sensor is not hooked up.. but, I know it should at least start without it..

I have also drained all the fuel and replaced it with new stuff.. including the lines.. I am getting fuel pressure at the engine..

He said he had good compression.. Dont have any reason to not believe him but who knows.. I will do a compression check as soon as I get my gauge back.

I also havent checked mechanical timing either.. I will do that if I cant find any other problems..

Anyway, any help is appreciated. Ive searched all over and tried alot of things but I still havent had much luck.. I have ca experience and am not a mechanic noob at all.. Just thought I would ask and see if there are any common faults that cause this.

btw.. the engine is stock everything..

[mests13]

Since its a fwd ca18 maybe the injectors' ohms are too high. the rwd ca's have low impotence injectors, but I don't know about the fwd's. If thats the case, whoever swaped this motor in might not have unhooked the drop resister.

Just an idea as I don't really know much about the fwd ca's. good luck.

[fivehunsky]

The drop resistor is still in the car.. Im pretty sure that the stock rwd intake and injectors were used.. just the fwd block head ect.. I dont see any reason why they would swap out the injectors and not just swap the whole unit..

Thanks for trying tho.. I appreciate it..

Anyone else have any ideas? This thread has a bunch of views but no replies..

[RS12Turbo]

It's possible the motor is from a late model s12 which had a ca18det, and it had a over the top throttle body, like this..........

Modified by RS12Turbo at 12:01 PM 10/8/2009
Modified by RS12Turbo at 12:02 PM 10/8/2009

[fivehunsky]

Haha.. I guess when you edited my post it deleted my reply? haha

Yeah, thats the intake. So I guess the engine was out of an s12.. that solves that.. thanks

To clarify tho.. the intake that is on the engine now is the regular ca det s13 style intake.. It is just mounted to the s12 engine

[fivehunsky]

Update time..

Here is what I know:

150 psi on all four cylinders

35ish psi of fuel pressure

ecu is code 55

Mechanical timing is perfect

all plugs are firing

all injectors are firing

cas checks out

ignitor checks out

maf if functioning

I have swapped ecu's out and there was no change

The car will try to start more when extremely advanced on the cas.. also helps to throw a little starting fluid in it.. but never pops off for more than a second or two

cant find any major problems on the car anywhere..

It just wont start:

I did discover that the s12 ca and the s13 ca are completely different heads tho.. The ports are wrong.. Also, the s12 used a different kind of ignition system and the timing was different for the two systems..

there is a pic or two on this page showing what I am talking abouthttp://www.club-s12.org/forums....html

Also, does anyone know if the s12 ca had a crank girdle? I read somewhere that it didnt. I was under the impression that all cadet's had the girdle.. am I wrong?

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas let us know. our next option is to just swap the head to another one we have..

[RS12Turbo]

Update time..

Here is what I know:

150 psi on all four cylinders

35ish psi of fuel pressure

ecu is code 55

Mechanical timing is perfect

all plugs are firing

all injectors are firing

cas checks out

ignitor checks out

maf if functioning

I don't see the dropping resistor listed. Have you checked it? Don't know if it throws a code, but mine crapped out, and the engine would turn over, but not fire. Replaced it, and it fired right up.Also, have you double checked your grounds?

You might want to get with "sam31183" over on club s12. I don't remember which he had...but I know he either has a s13 ca block and s12 ca head, or visa versa....I remember he had trouble getting it to run a couple years back when he put it all together.

Not sure if the s12 ca18dets are girdled or not....the single overhead ca's are not, I know for sure
Modified by RS12Turbo at 6:24 AM 10/11/2009

[ca18detgabby]

sounds really silly, but what kind of vac are you seeing?

is your IAT sensor hooked up properly?

what happens when fire it up and lay on the throttle?

[fivehunsky]

I just sent him a pm.. thanks for the info

Also, if the injectors are firing.. shouldnt the drop resistor be okay?

and I dont have a vac gauge in the car yet so I cant get a reading. I will as soon as I get the gauge in there tho.

I guess the main questions are:does the s12 ca det have the bearing girdle?

will the s13 intake work with the s12 engine?

do you have any ideas on why its not starting?

if worse comes to worse we are just going to put an s13 head on this bottom end. we have a couple laying around.. is there anything that will not work? ie.. wrong piston height/compression ratio with different heads/blocks..

[IggyEGuana]

Maybe the CAS doesnt index the same between the two. You time with a timing light? Try removing the bolts and turning the CAS outside its normal range.

I'd pull the intake and take a look at port alignment as well

GL and holy s*** rare S12 CA18DET sweet! lol

[fivehunsky]

I have tried the cas outside of its regular fitment. It does help to advance it more but it doesnt let it start. I spoke to the guy on s12 with one and he said that the ports wont match at all.

We are starting work on a new manifold this week. Just gonna use the s12 lower with a custom upper. Autocomp racecars in Fort Worth is going to be helping out with the fab.. I cut, Marty welds haha..

Anyway, I will update as it comes along.. Im really just too lazy to swap out the head.. This is more fun to me.. haha

[Dattebayo]

SO um, dropping resistor?

Bueler?

[fivehunsky]

SO um, dropping resistor?

Bueler?

You can reads no good?

Helpful post would have been..

"I saw that you asked about the drop resistor.. And it __________ still fire all of the injectors even if its bad."

A: willB: will not

I have physically checked all the injectors and they are firing.. which leads me to believe that the drop resistor is good. I do have a dsm unit I can wire in if thats not the case.

I really think that the problem lies with the completely unmatched ports of the engine. Thats why I am going to take care of that problem. Even if it isnt the problem, I will still have a custom manifold.. so, its a win

[r34 gtr]

Sometimes that can be as simple as the engine not being properly grounded. I experienced it on my CA years back. One day, the engine would turn over and pop but never fire up. I threw on some big ground straps and it fired right up, and never had the problem again. My buddy had it happen to him on his '02 WRX last week too. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it can happen, and its a cheap thing to do.

[boost_boy]

I just sent him a pm.. thanks for the info

Also, if the injectors are firing.. shouldnt the drop resistor be okay?

and I dont have a vac gauge in the car yet so I cant get a reading. I will as soon as I get the gauge in there tho.

I guess the main questions are:does the s12 ca det have the bearing girdle?

will the s13 intake work with the s12 engine?

do you have any ideas on why its not starting?

if worse comes to worse we are just going to put an s13 head on this bottom end. we have a couple laying around.. is there anything that will not work? ie.. wrong piston height/compression ratio with different heads/blocks..

After reding this thing over and over, I'm convinced that I'm going to touch an area of concern for you. So you are using an S12 CA with an S13 intake manifold attached to the head, correct? If so, then you guys have a "Hard-Fail" because the S12's head is different on the intake port side than the S13's. You will be leaking vacuum all over the place and the car will never crank (hope it don't catch fire). You'll need to use the S13's head with the S13's intake manifold or you'll continue to post for help and I personally am trying to help clean this up on this forum. Hopefully this thread will help some new user who decides to go the route you went, failed, but wasn't too lazy to use the search function on this forum. It will now be archived and we can move on to other challenges.

Dee

[fivehunsky]

Umm.. huh?

Im not sure if you read the last few posts but I had already identified that problem. Thanks for.. um.. trying to help?

I have already decided to continue to use the s12 head.. I am just going to use the s12 lower on it with a custom upper made by autocomp racecars.

I am sorry if I am "dirtying" up your forum?

Feel free to delete the entire post if you want. I just thought that you guys might want updates on how things go. Im not the one who keeps posting about the startup problem.. Its people who havent read the whole post.

Anyway:

My plan of action is

A. build manifold: more fun alternative than swapping heads

B. compare index for cas on s12 cam to one on s13 cam.. see if there is a difference

C. once the intake is complete start over on diagnosis. If it works out I might start selling manifolds haha

AGAIN, FOR ANYONE WHO ONLY READ THE FIRST POST

THE S13 INTAKE DOES NOT FIT THE S12 HEAD.. I AM MAKING A MANIFOLD

THE END

[fivehunsky]

And were you really insinuating that I didnt use the search button?

[fivehunsky]

Question still remains about the s12's ca having a girdle or not.. I would rather not have to pull the pan if I dont have to..

[boost_boy]

Umm.. huh?

Im not sure if you read the last few posts but I had already identified that problem. Thanks for.. um.. trying to help?

I have already decided to continue to use the s12 head.. I am just going to use the s12 lower on it with a custom upper made by autocomp racecars.

I am sorry if I am "dirtying" up your forum?

Feel free to delete the entire post if you want. I just thought that you guys might want updates on how things go. Im not the one who keeps posting about the startup problem.. Its people who havent read the whole post.

Anyway:

My plan of action is

A. build manifold: more fun alternative than swapping heads

B. compare index for cas on s12 cam to one on s13 cam.. see if there is a difference

C. once the intake is complete start over on diagnosis. If it works out I might start selling manifolds haha

AGAIN, FOR ANYONE WHO ONLY READ THE FIRST POST

THE S13 INTAKE DOES NOT FIT THE S12 HEAD.. I AM MAKING A MANIFOLD

THE END

Since you supposedly diagnosed your problem, there's no need to carry this thread on as you don't strike me as someone who really needs anyone's help. Good luck

Dee