Starting problem

[wml]

2011 M56 bought new. 80k miles on it now. Intermittent problem where car will not start. Seems to be getting worse in that it takes more and more times to try it before it finally starts. Turns over strong. Gas okay. Not overheated. Dealer had it a week or so and said computer refreshed. Three weeks or so and same problem.
Any suggestions?

[pedsemdoc]

Battery bad?, I would get it tested under load too, even if you've been told it's "good."

Craig

[Ilya]

I agree with Craig.

[vr4z06gt]

I had a similar problem last year. 2012 with a V8 engine, roughly 45k miles on it at the time. I have noticed that the problem really only occurs during colder weather. I have several videos of this occurring which I shared with the dealer but still they were "unable to duplicate". The dealer suggested the battery was bad as well and replaced it under warranty. However this did not solve my problem. For me this only happens during the first start on a colder morning (generally less than 40-45F). I have noticed that if you tap the throttle just after start the issue goes away and everything runs just fine. So for now I have decided to just live with it as I am out of bumper to bumper warranty and the dealer is an hours drive away, both of which make it painful for an unable to duplicate.

I have wondered if this has to do with a closed loop start and possibly carbon build up throughout the intake/top end ?

[EdBwoy]

... I have several videos of this occurring which I shared with the dealer but still they were "unable to duplicate"...

Of course they couldn't duplicate it! These are the laws of the universe
I know people who have told the service departments to keep it until they figure out an issue. Granted, yours is manageable, but I also think that since you recorded the complaint before the warranty expired, maybe (hopefully) they don't hang you out to dry if you need them.

Do you know if they did an idle air relearn procedure during their time with it?

Also, are your videos in a format that you can share with us? I am curious.

[walt1227]

My 2011 M56 102k started doing the same thing on Christmas day. I pulled it out of the garage just to let it breathe since I did a wax job on it the day before. I had to jump it off because it would not start. It was pretty cold that night in the 20's I believe. Once it was jumped it started without any problems. I took it to O'Rielly's two days later and had the battery tested and it came back fine. Since then it starts with no problem. However, there are two more things that have happened that had me concern until I talked with Armybrat and confirmed his does the same. The cold start open loop is hit or miss sometimes. The last time it happened I shut it off, started it again and the cold start open loop did as it was suppose to. Two weeks ago on a Sunday morning I went to start it and it kept shutting off. Did it 3 times, on the 4th start I decide to hit the gas and it stayed started. Have not had the problem since then. Armybrat said that he has had similar issues with his 2012 M56 but only happens in extreme cold weather. It has been brutally cold here in NC the last month beyond the norm like 5 degrees at the lowest and -2 degrees with wind chill. I thought it might have been an issue with the fuel system being clogged or a bad fuel pump.I am about to do my tune up soon so hopefully no more issues. I need to do a intake and injector cleaning as well but afraid to use those gas treatments from the part store.

[EdBwoy]

Are you guys saying that you think your cars are starting in closed loop sometimes... even when both the ambient temp and the car itself are cold?

[walt1227]

Are you guys saying that you think your cars are starting in closed loop sometimes... even when both the ambient temp and the car itself are cold?

Yes Eddie. Mine just started doing it this month. Has not done it again since the second Sunday of this month. What I did not understand is here in NC it has been record cold temps down to -2 at night so it should cold start with no problem.

[armybrat]

Are you guys saying that you think your cars are starting in closed loop sometimes... even when both the ambient temp and the car itself are cold?

Since I bought my car in Sept 2015, it's done this three times, all three times in the week that we had the extreme cold weather here in NC where the high temps stayed in the low 20's, about two weeks ago. My car is always garaged at night, but sits outside at work during the day. Mornings, no problem. After work (I work from 7:30 am - 3:30 pm) Get in, hit the start button, fires up and dies. Second time, hit the start button, fires up and I bump the gas pedal. It seems to idle in closed loop. Let it warm up for a minute, and take off. Runs fine. Hasn't done it again since the weather warmed up. I'm thinking that the extreme cold weather affected O2 and/or A/F sensor voltage outputs, which would cause a lean condition and affect cold start. As an isolated incident, I'm not worried about it. If it's happening more often, then you should check your voltage with a scanner.

[EdBwoy]

I kind of want this to happen to me so I can really relate to it. So far, we'll call it a V8 only issue, right?

I see the MAF being tricked by the cold ambient air for a shorter open loop run. However, I can't wrap my head around starting in closed loop inmediately. Heck, the coolant temperature is one of the triggers to switch mode.
But, if you are using a scanner that says so, I believe it is so.

The one thing I would try to alter for now is to reprogram the throttle bodies/ perform the idle air relearn.

[walt1227]

I kind of want this to happen to me so I can really relate to it. So far, we'll call it a V8 only issue, right?

I see the MAF being tricked by the cold ambient air for a shorter open loop run. However, I can't wrap my head around starting in closed loop inmediately. Heck, the coolant temperature is one of the triggers to switch mode.
But, if you are using a scanner that says so, I believe it is so.

The one thing I would try to alter for now is to reprogram the throttle bodies/ perform the idle air relearn.

Eddie,
How do we do the throttle bodies/ perform the idle air relearn? All I know how to program is the throttle relearn or is that the same thing?

[spirod]

I also had difficulty starting the car this past week for the first time since getting the M56. The car would start without any hesitation but would immediately shutoff. It took three tries to start without touching the gas. This happened three times this week on first start when the ambient air was very cold, between -14C and -20C. Temperatures have since gone up and the starting problem has gone away.

I plan on leaving the car at the dealer next week as the cold temperatures are supposed to return and see if they can determine what is wrong with the car. I'll keep you guys posted on their findings.

[hagani]

I also had difficulty starting the car this past week for the first time since getting the M56. The car would start without any hesitation but would immediately shutoff. It took three tries to start without touching the gas. This happened three times this week on first start when the ambient air was very cold, between -14C and -20C. Temperatures have since gone up and the starting problem has gone away.

I plan on leaving the car at the dealer next week as the cold temperatures are supposed to return and see if they can determine what is wrong with the car. I'll keep you guys posted on their findings.

Just had exactly the same issue. Very cold winter in NJ this year. Sometimes wasn't able to start it without touching the gas pedal. Potentially there could be two different problems - carbon build on the throttle body flap or crankshaft position sensor starting to go bad (which is common on Infiniti and on this particular engine as well). Decided to go easiest route first. Removed throttle body air intake boot on both sides, sprayed with gum/carburetor cleaner, pushed/opened flap with the finger and used fine/soft copper brush to clean inside the throttle body, made sure flap returns and moves freely. Problem gone for now but if returns will be replacing CPS.

[EdBwoy]

...
How do we do the throttle bodies/ perform the idle air relearn? All I know how to program is the throttle relearn or is that the same thing?

Walt, the throttle relearn covers one of the 3 procedures related to the issue.

The procedures are in the EC section of the FSM, starting at page 694 for the V8
http://www.nicoclub.com/service-manual?fsm=M/2011/EC

1. For the computer to know what the gas pedal is being asked to do
2. To communicate what the throttle plates are doing
3. To know where to keep the throttle plates when the gas pedal isn't being asked to do anything*

The idle air relearn requires a good sense of timing to do without Consult. If the car starts and dies immediately but if you tap the gas pedal it stays running, then it makes sense to look at this relationship.