I'm looking to build a responsive and reliable SR20DET with good torque and a fast response, virtually no turbo lag, and high revs.
Purpose = primarily Drift and Track
Chasis = S14
Basic formula = stroker kit, forged everything, balanced, port & polish, proper spec turbo, stand-alone ecu or a bunch of piggy backs..
I suppose the first choice is in which engine ??Not going to be an all out power engine so would any engine work just as well as the other..
Is the s13 sr20det high port more suited for ultimate or will show a difference in this scenario ?
Also since the car is a s14 would a s14 front clip be more practical in terms of the swap and build up?
SR20DET - response & reliablility - stroker Kit
The first thing you need to do is more research. This question gets asked a lot on this board. Here's the basic run down:
SR20DET---(S13, redtop, blacktop, S14,S15 motor)=they all are excellent engines.
Some people have a preference for the S13 redtop. I'll not say anything against it because there's not alot of negative that you can say...there are some drawbacks, but like I said all of the engines are great.
Personally, I went with the S14 motor. It has the ball bearing turbo and it's much newer. All of the motors are great (I can't stress that enough). If you're not going for all out power...forget about a stroker kit, porting, polishing, ecu's, etc. You can make 350-400rwhp with just a turbo upgrade, and the fuel managment to support it.
SR20DET---(S13, redtop, blacktop, S14,S15 motor)=they all are excellent engines.
Some people have a preference for the S13 redtop. I'll not say anything against it because there's not alot of negative that you can say...there are some drawbacks, but like I said all of the engines are great.
Personally, I went with the S14 motor. It has the ball bearing turbo and it's much newer. All of the motors are great (I can't stress that enough). If you're not going for all out power...forget about a stroker kit, porting, polishing, ecu's, etc. You can make 350-400rwhp with just a turbo upgrade, and the fuel managment to support it.
Research would nice if I had the upteen number of hours to sort through tons of convoluted answers, suggestions, opinions, rants and weird tangents that seem to pop out of nowhere...
Hoping some good samaritan would give a complete answer or at least give decent directions to the whole answer or at least a good part of it... ------------------
yes the ball bearing turbo of the later gen's would be nice but if the stock turbo doesn't fit the bill it'll be sold and the "proper spec" one obtained, though probably the s14/15s stock turbo will do..
From an N/A point of view the stroker kit would give a desirable power curve..
Pretty much I look at it from the point of view of more displacement, low boost & proper tuning would result linear & responsive power and good power net result...
Hoping some good samaritan would give a complete answer or at least give decent directions to the whole answer or at least a good part of it... ------------------
yes the ball bearing turbo of the later gen's would be nice but if the stock turbo doesn't fit the bill it'll be sold and the "proper spec" one obtained, though probably the s14/15s stock turbo will do..
From an N/A point of view the stroker kit would give a desirable power curve..
Pretty much I look at it from the point of view of more displacement, low boost & proper tuning would result linear & responsive power and good power net result...
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thes14project
- Posts: 495
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- Car: Thinking my friend and I have mechanical skills
if you want a drift car, my best advice is to find the September 2003 edition of Super Street. Now I hate advertising car mags, because they promote trendiness and rice. But it has a great write up of the signal auto drift team and their cars. Just in case you can find it let me give you a quick overview.
Both cars are almost identical minus one has 850cc injectors and the other has 720cc injectors. However both have ~375hp.
s13 sr20det264 degree camshaftsrocker armsvalve springsgreddy intake mainifold720cc injectorsgreddy cam gearsT518z turbobigger oil pan1.2mm head gasket oil coolerSignal auto connecting rods" " pistons" " piston rings exhaust manifoldcustom intercooler (the intercooler is mounted in the engine compartment2-row aluminum radiatorSARD fuel preasure regulatorUpgraded fuel pump (Skyline GT-R)Split fire plugsTanabe exhaustLSDExedy hyper single clutch.
That is just the engine and the drive train. It is also only one of many ways to reach that kind of HP. Of course these cars are driven very very ridiculiously hard. and could daily drive all day. I mean you said track car and this is the standard in track car IMHO.
Also in that SS there is a Yashio factory 180sx making 404hp with rebored sleves. and the awesome 700hp NX s15 that is stroked and took 80k to build. However, you're never going to need 700hp on a track.
Hope this is a little insight.
Also, there is a decent parts guide in the edition too.
Both cars are almost identical minus one has 850cc injectors and the other has 720cc injectors. However both have ~375hp.
s13 sr20det264 degree camshaftsrocker armsvalve springsgreddy intake mainifold720cc injectorsgreddy cam gearsT518z turbobigger oil pan1.2mm head gasket oil coolerSignal auto connecting rods" " pistons" " piston rings exhaust manifoldcustom intercooler (the intercooler is mounted in the engine compartment2-row aluminum radiatorSARD fuel preasure regulatorUpgraded fuel pump (Skyline GT-R)Split fire plugsTanabe exhaustLSDExedy hyper single clutch.
That is just the engine and the drive train. It is also only one of many ways to reach that kind of HP. Of course these cars are driven very very ridiculiously hard. and could daily drive all day. I mean you said track car and this is the standard in track car IMHO.
Also in that SS there is a Yashio factory 180sx making 404hp with rebored sleves. and the awesome 700hp NX s15 that is stroked and took 80k to build. However, you're never going to need 700hp on a track.
Hope this is a little insight.
Also, there is a decent parts guide in the edition too.
I don't mean to seem an ***, but are you serious???
You are talking about spending over $10k on an engine to make maybe 270-300rwhp max, all because the thought of throwing shiny parts at some perceived problem will yeild the ultimate solution. Sorry, it doesn't really work that way.
I also have to question if you really have an ultimate goal in mind and the knowledge to even talk about what you "want" for the engines.
First off - SR20DETs are incapable of really high RPMs with a stockish valvetrain. Hydraulic lifters don't work at high revs, and the rocker arms are the weak point past that. No amount of bottom end balancing will fix this.
Second - do you really think that 0.2L of displacement will make one diddily bit of difference at these low power levels? You will be constrained by the super small turbos you are planning on using. Also - what's this fascination with "forged everything?" The stock rods are forged, and the pistons are more than up for whatever a dinky S15 turbo can push. Even moreso - why would you want a "port and polish" when that will most likely make the engine more "lazy" than a stock head at your low flowrates? The SR20DET head is more than up for the task of flowing ~300rwhp, and porting it will only make the engine more "peaky." Although it won't necessarily increase top end power due to the small turbo you plan on saddling this $10k demonstration of machine work with. I'd also never put "aftermarket stroker motor that is completely rebuilt" and "reliable" in the same requirements.
Third - Do you actually know how to drift or have tracked ANY car before? Do you *really* need all this crap to do these activities? More power is always nice, but it doesn't sound like you're too sure why you want these parts other than they sound cool.
I don't even own a Nissan, so maybe my opinion won't hold much weight with you. But obsession over go-fast parts can always blind good ole' common sense that would choose a much simplier approach that ultimately works better.
IMO, it sounds like you want a bolt-on SR20DET with the stock turbo. It'll be reliable, responsive and plenty fast for either activity you mentioned.
You are talking about spending over $10k on an engine to make maybe 270-300rwhp max, all because the thought of throwing shiny parts at some perceived problem will yeild the ultimate solution. Sorry, it doesn't really work that way.
I also have to question if you really have an ultimate goal in mind and the knowledge to even talk about what you "want" for the engines.
First off - SR20DETs are incapable of really high RPMs with a stockish valvetrain. Hydraulic lifters don't work at high revs, and the rocker arms are the weak point past that. No amount of bottom end balancing will fix this.
Second - do you really think that 0.2L of displacement will make one diddily bit of difference at these low power levels? You will be constrained by the super small turbos you are planning on using. Also - what's this fascination with "forged everything?" The stock rods are forged, and the pistons are more than up for whatever a dinky S15 turbo can push. Even moreso - why would you want a "port and polish" when that will most likely make the engine more "lazy" than a stock head at your low flowrates? The SR20DET head is more than up for the task of flowing ~300rwhp, and porting it will only make the engine more "peaky." Although it won't necessarily increase top end power due to the small turbo you plan on saddling this $10k demonstration of machine work with. I'd also never put "aftermarket stroker motor that is completely rebuilt" and "reliable" in the same requirements.
Third - Do you actually know how to drift or have tracked ANY car before? Do you *really* need all this crap to do these activities? More power is always nice, but it doesn't sound like you're too sure why you want these parts other than they sound cool.
I don't even own a Nissan, so maybe my opinion won't hold much weight with you. But obsession over go-fast parts can always blind good ole' common sense that would choose a much simplier approach that ultimately works better.
IMO, it sounds like you want a bolt-on SR20DET with the stock turbo. It'll be reliable, responsive and plenty fast for either activity you mentioned.
Hey, Def, although I'm pretty sure you're right about what you were said about this dream build up. . . however, he does make a good point about the stroker kit. Too many people just slap on a HUGE turbo on a stock motor and call it good. This guy, whether or not he's actually doing all of this (no offense, x-nobody, but there are a LOT of "talkers" in forums), is talking about actually doing it right. I would love to have the money to have a JimWolf 2.4 kit, power FC, and a HKS GT-SS. This set up should give me a very NA-like 300+hp. I wanna try something like this out, but since human nature will more than likely cause me to go bigger and better once I get used to it, I'd probably go w/ a larger GT-RS to begin w/.But oh well, it's a nice thought. . . Bedides, I don't have the money for the 2.4 kit, anyway. lol.
Kenny
Kenny
It's just way more economically feasible to use a larger turbo to upgrade the engine's breathing capacity rather than go through the expensive route of stroking an engine to get a relatively small increase for the percentage we're talking about.
If you want a torquey 300rwhp, turbo a KA and concentrate on making the torqueband flat. That's the best way from what I've seen.
I see some ridiculous power numbers thrown out in seemingly every post here though - so after a while it's like we're all living in some fantasy world. Everybody seems to want, "not much power, maybe just 350rwhp. It's a daily driver after all..." Please, 350rwhp in a 2500lb car is pretty extreme for a daily driver. That's like a 450-500rwhp Camaro or something that weighs alot. Pretty substantial if you ask me.
I understand the allure of a fast street car, but I don't understand the allure of these really extreme setups that most people propose to go fetch the milk from the grocery store 0.0016 seconds faster than bone stock.
If you want a torquey 300rwhp, turbo a KA and concentrate on making the torqueband flat. That's the best way from what I've seen.
I see some ridiculous power numbers thrown out in seemingly every post here though - so after a while it's like we're all living in some fantasy world. Everybody seems to want, "not much power, maybe just 350rwhp. It's a daily driver after all..." Please, 350rwhp in a 2500lb car is pretty extreme for a daily driver. That's like a 450-500rwhp Camaro or something that weighs alot. Pretty substantial if you ask me.
I understand the allure of a fast street car, but I don't understand the allure of these really extreme setups that most people propose to go fetch the milk from the grocery store 0.0016 seconds faster than bone stock.
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masticatingcow
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- Car: 94 Mazda FD3S
With all due respect, for most owners, the process of building up a car, the "blood, sweat, and tears," if you will, is the allure of these heavily modded cars.Def wrote:I understand the allure of a fast street car, but I don't understand the allure of these really extreme setups that most people propose to go fetch the milk from the grocery store 0.0016 seconds faster than bone stock.
I mean, there are two kinds of power people in the world: those who buy it and those who build it... neither is better than the other... you bought a performace machine when you got your M3. This guy is building one. You know what I mean?
And despite the fact that you have what some people call a "Visa" car, you DO understand the allure of a fast car to pick up milk 0.0016 faster than stock... you have an M3. Unless you are comfortable with admitting that the M3 isn't that fast, you have to concede to being a power driver yourself.
Lastly, you suggest that not owning a Nissan doesn't really qualify you to discuss a 240sx build up; I would argue that the fact that you are a different power driver would be more problematic, and not just with 240's, but any car buildup. Really, how many people buy BMWs with the intention of "building them up?" Do Bimmers need building up? Two words.... come on.
EDIT: Instead of secretly correcting my generalizations and admittedly misconceived notions about Def and his car, I will just add this about them: there are BMW owners out there who track their cars and build them up. Def is one and is as qualified a driver as anyone else on these boards. My apologies to him and anyone else who was offended at some or all of the above. (edited: 4.3.04 11:00pm GMT -08:00)
x-nobody... if you want a real torquey car, build up on the KA... if you want a track car, the SR is good, but you might also consider the CA... it's a real reliable engine... and while the discussion could go back and forth, it really ends up being up to you. Good luck with it!
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Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
Def wrote:I don't mean to seem an ***, but are you serious???
You are talking about spending over $10k on an engine to make maybe 270-300rwhp max, all because the thought of throwing shiny parts at some perceived problem will yeild the ultimate solution. Sorry, it doesn't really work that way.
I also have to question if you really have an ultimate goal in mind and the knowledge to even talk about what you "want" for the engines.
First off - SR20DETs are incapable of really high RPMs with a stockish valvetrain. Hydraulic lifters don't work at high revs, and the rocker arms are the weak point past that. No amount of bottom end balancing will fix this.
Second - do you really think that 0.2L of displacement will make one diddily bit of difference at these low power levels? You will be constrained by the super small turbos you are planning on using. Also - what's this fascination with "forged everything?" The stock rods are forged, and the pistons are more than up for whatever a dinky S15 turbo can push. Even moreso - why would you want a "port and polish" when that will most likely make the engine more "lazy" than a stock head at your low flowrates? The SR20DET head is more than up for the task of flowing ~300rwhp, and porting it will only make the engine more "peaky." Although it won't necessarily increase top end power due to the small turbo you plan on saddling this $10k demonstration of machine work with. I'd also never put "aftermarket stroker motor that is completely rebuilt" and "reliable" in the same requirements.
Third - Do you actually know how to drift or have tracked ANY car before? Do you *really* need all this crap to do these activities? More power is always nice, but it doesn't sound like you're too sure why you want these parts other than they sound cool.
I don't even own a Nissan, so maybe my opinion won't hold much weight with you. But obsession over go-fast parts can always blind good ole' common sense that would choose a much simplier approach that ultimately works better.
IMO, it sounds like you want a bolt-on SR20DET with the stock turbo. It'll be reliable, responsive and plenty fast for either activity you mentioned.
You make alot of valid points but the addition of a forged rotational assembly using a higher forging pressure and better materials will make an engine (regardless of it's power output) more responsive. The idea of the stroker engine would be for a flatter torque band from the inherant gained stroke and the resulting added exhaust energy, not to mention the benefit of a forged crankshaft. Keep in mind that "forging" isn't exactly the same monotonous task... pressure differences, materials, feed differences, etc. make a big difference between two forged products.
He can also take the time to coat the pistons to further reduce friction in the engine. There are alot of benefits you stand to gain from replacing the stock internals; regardless of his power level.
I plan to build a 300rwhp, high response, high revving engine. It involves alot of work to the engine including the internals and some minor port work. Obviously with me using an SR20 engine I can't overlook the head.
BTW... hydraulic valvetrains can hold alot of RPMs, case and point would be Hondas B18C5 engine. Nissan's CA can hold alot of revolutions as well, but I know your response intended to point out the SR's lifters inability to stay pumped up at higher RPMs.
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
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- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
Re: SR20DET - response & reliablility - stroker Kit
x-nobody wrote:I'm looking to build a responsive and reliable SR20DET with good torque and a fast response, virtually no turbo lag, and high revs.
Purpose = primarily Drift and Track
Chasis = S14
Basic formula = stroker kit, forged everything, balanced, port & polish, proper spec turbo, stand-alone ecu or a bunch of piggy backs..
I suppose the first choice is in which engine ??Not going to be an all out power engine so would any engine work just as well as the other..
Is the s13 sr20det high port more suited for ultimate or will show a difference in this scenario ?
Also since the car is a s14 would a s14 front clip be more practical in terms of the swap and build up?
The propblem with your questions are that you are looking for specific answers to something that is so subjective. There is no "basic formula" for any kind of engine build-up. Go look at the Honda Camp. There are only a few major bulilders and each approach making power a different way. The same goes for most cars. The key is to research and find out what each type of mod does and also how each modd works with other parts. Perhaps try to find out what some of the major SR tuners are doing. Find the one with the results you most want and mimic their build-up.
And if you should want more specific answers, ask more specific questions. What do you consider good response? And are you looking for a low boost threshold? What psi of boost are you planning to run? What do you consider to be high revs?
I would consider good response as having instant high power everywhere... I'd settle with a steep linear power curve steady rise power as you increase throttle..
High rpms.. 10,000+... realisticly 8000-9000..
as for the amount of boost.. I'm still a bit out in left field as where I want to go with it.. a core range of 5 -15...
What I want pretty much looks like a pumped up K24 with a small turbo put on it.. I'm still searching around for parts to consider a K24. N/A buildups are expensive either way you slice it and the K24 is perhaps the not so travelled route.
There's still a lot of research to be done for the engine.. I thank everyone for the input, it gives me more guide points and unfortunately more variables to throw in = more research time..
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As for the point of doing up BMW's and those that buy them to... well we live in the wrong country to make it easy on the pocket books.. but none the less there are those that do anyways... besides who want to look like any other bmw.. gotta have yo' style...
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BTW, I've been in the Honda Camp for most of my time in the import scene... its still a mess when you see people arguing how to make power the proper way. they all have there ways but when you see them argue its pretty messed.. I just try to take in everything I can.. walk a route and hope I don't fall off a cliff..
High rpms.. 10,000+... realisticly 8000-9000..
as for the amount of boost.. I'm still a bit out in left field as where I want to go with it.. a core range of 5 -15...
What I want pretty much looks like a pumped up K24 with a small turbo put on it.. I'm still searching around for parts to consider a K24. N/A buildups are expensive either way you slice it and the K24 is perhaps the not so travelled route.
There's still a lot of research to be done for the engine.. I thank everyone for the input, it gives me more guide points and unfortunately more variables to throw in = more research time..
--------
As for the point of doing up BMW's and those that buy them to... well we live in the wrong country to make it easy on the pocket books.. but none the less there are those that do anyways... besides who want to look like any other bmw.. gotta have yo' style...
------
BTW, I've been in the Honda Camp for most of my time in the import scene... its still a mess when you see people arguing how to make power the proper way. they all have there ways but when you see them argue its pretty messed.. I just try to take in everything I can.. walk a route and hope I don't fall off a cliff..
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masticatingcow
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:39 am
- Car: 94 Mazda FD3S
Okay, instant power is unrealistic. Engines have powerbands because that's the nature of the beast.
And sorry to burst your bubble... but if I'm reading your post right (I like to think I am...) and you want RPMs that high (8000-9000) you're looking at the WRONG engine. The KA is not a high revver without being built up like a race engine and probably would need a pit crew just to keep it running. If that's how high you want go, seriously consider a CA18DET. Seriously. And you're concerned with N/A tuning? Aren't you turboing the engine? Isn't that how you get boost? N/A tuning is irrelevant to the discussion.
As far as being in the Honda camp for so long, that may very well be at play here. If you think you'll need to be revving above 7000 rpms to get power out of a Nissan, you're wrong. Honda's engines are very different from Nissan's, and owners' tuning strategies reflect that. You'll notice a lot of Nissan owners concerned with low-end power, namely torque, which is something lacking in Honda's blocks.
My suggestion is this: do whatever you want to, but remember that you're tuning a Nissan. Most Nissans have a lot of power in places other engines you may have worked with didn't... and, regardless of individual methods, an effective tune on any engine means exploiting such characteristics, not overriding or ignoring them.
There certainly are a lot of issues to be considered when you bring a question like this to the table, but one you shouldn't have to worry about is if you chose the right manufacturer. Good luck with your project and welcome to the Nissan pack!
And sorry to burst your bubble... but if I'm reading your post right (I like to think I am...) and you want RPMs that high (8000-9000) you're looking at the WRONG engine. The KA is not a high revver without being built up like a race engine and probably would need a pit crew just to keep it running. If that's how high you want go, seriously consider a CA18DET. Seriously. And you're concerned with N/A tuning? Aren't you turboing the engine? Isn't that how you get boost? N/A tuning is irrelevant to the discussion.
As far as being in the Honda camp for so long, that may very well be at play here. If you think you'll need to be revving above 7000 rpms to get power out of a Nissan, you're wrong. Honda's engines are very different from Nissan's, and owners' tuning strategies reflect that. You'll notice a lot of Nissan owners concerned with low-end power, namely torque, which is something lacking in Honda's blocks.
My suggestion is this: do whatever you want to, but remember that you're tuning a Nissan. Most Nissans have a lot of power in places other engines you may have worked with didn't... and, regardless of individual methods, an effective tune on any engine means exploiting such characteristics, not overriding or ignoring them.
There certainly are a lot of issues to be considered when you bring a question like this to the table, but one you shouldn't have to worry about is if you chose the right manufacturer. Good luck with your project and welcome to the Nissan pack!
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masticatingcow
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- Car: 94 Mazda FD3S
- Okay, steep linear curve? Check. - High RPMS "realistically" around 8000-9000 RPM? Checkx-nobody wrote:I would consider good response as having instant high power everywhere... I'd settle with a steep linear power curve steady rise power as you increase throttle..
High rpms.. 10,000+... realisticly 8000-9000..
... Yeah, this, I think, is most problematic about your expectations: you're describing a Honda engine, save for the instant power, which doesn't exist anywhere in a useful format.
[quote=" masticatingcow With all due respect, for most owners, the process of building up a car, the "blood, sweat, and tears," if you will, is the allure of these heavily modded cars.
I mean, there are two kinds of power people in the world: those who buy it and those who build it... neither is better than the other... you bought a performace machine when you got your M3. This guy is building one. You know what I mean?[/quote]I bought my M3 because I needed a car that could double as a track car and a daily driver for a while. Plus the deal was pretty darn good since I found myself with way more money than I thought after totalling my non-VTEC Integra.
Quote »And despite the fact that you have what some people call a "Visa" car, you DO understand the allure of a fast car to pick up milk 0.0016 faster than stock... you have an M3. Unless you are comfortable with admitting that the M3 isn't that fast, you have to concede to being a power driver yourself.[/quote]Well considering I didn't buy my car new, I don't see how it is so much a "Visa" car. I consider it a performance bargain if you want a car that can take track abuse like a champ, be pretty quick in stock form and still be a perfectly livable daily driver. Money is all a relative thing, and even "Yuppie Visa cars" as you might call them aren't perfect. They've just got a "headstart."
My M3 isn't very fast.... around the track. For the street it is a bit too much IMO(3180lb curb weight, ~230rwhp). I rarely get anywhere close to the limits of the car on the street, just because they're so high - powerwise and suspension wise. If I didn't track my car as much as possible, I would absolutely NOT be driving this car. In fact, I'm looking at picking up an S13 - using it as a daily driver then selling the M3 and turning that into a track/weekend fun car.
Quote »Lastly, you suggest that not owning a Nissan doesn't really qualify you to discuss a 240sx build up; I would argue that the fact that you are a different power driver would be more problematic, and not just with 240's, but any car buildup. Really, how many people buy BMWs with the intention of "building them up?" Do Bimmers need building up? Two words.... come on.[/quote]Yes, Bimmers need a good bit of attention to be track cars. I've already established that I wouldn't be driving it around on the street(since the car wouldn't really be pushed much), but around the track there are many deficiencies. Brakes, weight, chassis stiffness, tire width, power... etc. etc. I've worked on my car at least as much as most people posting on this forum from my observations - so yea, I didn't buy a "Visa car." I bought a car with a good blend of comfort and performance right out of the box. I didn't need to worry about blowing $800 on a clutch type LSD, bigger brakes(well, they're always nice, but I can make due with stockers), bigger wheels, better clutch etc. etc. It was a good base, and I've improved upon it a good bit. It eventually won't get me to where I want to be though, so I'll be selling it in the future.
Quote »x-nobody... if you want a real torquey car, build up on the KA... if you want a track car, the SR is good, but you might also consider the CA... it's a real reliable engine... and while the discussion could go back and forth, it really ends up being up to you. Good luck with it! [/quote]
Since you completely missed what I'm saying, but in the end sort of agreed with me, let me clear it up. I was not saying that one shouldn't heavily modify their car. I was saying that $10k of engine work ontop of a ~$2500 engine swap just ISN'T necessarily for 99.99999% of the people. Especially if you're going to just be driving the car on the street! If you dragrace all the time, sure, knock yourself out and get more and more power. Yet the original poster seems to want to drift or go out on a track(at least that's how I took it), and a lightweight car, HUGE power and a novice behind the wheel is NOT a smart thing. I'm not sure how much track experience you have, but if I know that a track virgin is going to be out in my run group with a monster *** engine and most likely grandiose notions of what "track driving" is like, I know I wouldn't want to be around someone like that. At best they'll splatter themselves against a wall when the boost hits hard during their first high speed corner. At worst they'll collect another person in the process.
Now, that was... entertaining. Glad my current car is more of a focus of my posts than what I actually say.
I mean, there are two kinds of power people in the world: those who buy it and those who build it... neither is better than the other... you bought a performace machine when you got your M3. This guy is building one. You know what I mean?[/quote]I bought my M3 because I needed a car that could double as a track car and a daily driver for a while. Plus the deal was pretty darn good since I found myself with way more money than I thought after totalling my non-VTEC Integra.
Quote »And despite the fact that you have what some people call a "Visa" car, you DO understand the allure of a fast car to pick up milk 0.0016 faster than stock... you have an M3. Unless you are comfortable with admitting that the M3 isn't that fast, you have to concede to being a power driver yourself.[/quote]Well considering I didn't buy my car new, I don't see how it is so much a "Visa" car. I consider it a performance bargain if you want a car that can take track abuse like a champ, be pretty quick in stock form and still be a perfectly livable daily driver. Money is all a relative thing, and even "Yuppie Visa cars" as you might call them aren't perfect. They've just got a "headstart."
My M3 isn't very fast.... around the track. For the street it is a bit too much IMO(3180lb curb weight, ~230rwhp). I rarely get anywhere close to the limits of the car on the street, just because they're so high - powerwise and suspension wise. If I didn't track my car as much as possible, I would absolutely NOT be driving this car. In fact, I'm looking at picking up an S13 - using it as a daily driver then selling the M3 and turning that into a track/weekend fun car.
Quote »Lastly, you suggest that not owning a Nissan doesn't really qualify you to discuss a 240sx build up; I would argue that the fact that you are a different power driver would be more problematic, and not just with 240's, but any car buildup. Really, how many people buy BMWs with the intention of "building them up?" Do Bimmers need building up? Two words.... come on.[/quote]Yes, Bimmers need a good bit of attention to be track cars. I've already established that I wouldn't be driving it around on the street(since the car wouldn't really be pushed much), but around the track there are many deficiencies. Brakes, weight, chassis stiffness, tire width, power... etc. etc. I've worked on my car at least as much as most people posting on this forum from my observations - so yea, I didn't buy a "Visa car." I bought a car with a good blend of comfort and performance right out of the box. I didn't need to worry about blowing $800 on a clutch type LSD, bigger brakes(well, they're always nice, but I can make due with stockers), bigger wheels, better clutch etc. etc. It was a good base, and I've improved upon it a good bit. It eventually won't get me to where I want to be though, so I'll be selling it in the future.
Quote »x-nobody... if you want a real torquey car, build up on the KA... if you want a track car, the SR is good, but you might also consider the CA... it's a real reliable engine... and while the discussion could go back and forth, it really ends up being up to you. Good luck with it! [/quote]
Since you completely missed what I'm saying, but in the end sort of agreed with me, let me clear it up. I was not saying that one shouldn't heavily modify their car. I was saying that $10k of engine work ontop of a ~$2500 engine swap just ISN'T necessarily for 99.99999% of the people. Especially if you're going to just be driving the car on the street! If you dragrace all the time, sure, knock yourself out and get more and more power. Yet the original poster seems to want to drift or go out on a track(at least that's how I took it), and a lightweight car, HUGE power and a novice behind the wheel is NOT a smart thing. I'm not sure how much track experience you have, but if I know that a track virgin is going to be out in my run group with a monster *** engine and most likely grandiose notions of what "track driving" is like, I know I wouldn't want to be around someone like that. At best they'll splatter themselves against a wall when the boost hits hard during their first high speed corner. At worst they'll collect another person in the process.
Now, that was... entertaining. Glad my current car is more of a focus of my posts than what I actually say.
[quote=" Nismo_Freak You make alot of valid points but the addition of a forged rotational assembly using a higher forging pressure and better materials will make an engine (regardless of it's power output) more responsive. The idea of the stroker engine would be for a flatter torque band from the inherant gained stroke and the resulting added exhaust energy, not to mention the benefit of a forged crankshaft. Keep in mind that "forging" isn't exactly the same monotonous task... pressure differences, materials, feed differences, etc. make a big difference between two forged products. [/quote]If the new components are lighter weight, then yes you can increase engine responsiveness to a small degree and enable higher bottom end revs. A rod that's forged and stronger than another rod will almost always weigh more though. Some people seem to think the forming process is the end all be all in material strength to weight ratio, when actually the alloy composition is FAR more important. The forging process can slightly change the material's end characteristics though.
Quote »He can also take the time to coat the pistons to further reduce friction in the engine. There are alot of benefits you stand to gain from replacing the stock internals; regardless of his power level. [/quote]Why would one unnecessarily go inside an engine for at most a 1-3% gain by reducing friction and lightening the parts. This is the most expensive and IMO last step you take in power building. You only go internal when you blow the engine or you simply don't think any of the components can hold up to your intended power output.
Quote »I plan to build a 300rwhp, high response, high revving engine. It involves alot of work to the engine including the internals and some minor port work. Obviously with me using an SR20 engine I can't overlook the head. [/quote]The stock SR20 head flows VERY well. There is absolutely no need to even look at the ports at 300rwhp. Your money would be better spent elsewhere(standalone comes to mind). I bet you if you're running an engine with $10k in machine work at 300rwhp and the stock ECU anywhere in there, I can beat the powerband and responsiveness of it using the same setup plus a stock engine and a well tuned standalone.
You're sitting here talking about spending thousands to swat gnats when the smelly elephant that is the stock ECU or piggyback controllers is sitting in the corner.
Quote »BTW... hydraulic valvetrains can hold alot of RPMs, case and point would be Hondas B18C5 engine. Nissan's CA can hold alot of revolutions as well, but I know your response intended to point out the SR's lifters inability to stay pumped up at higher RPMs. [/quote]
You are correct that both the B18C5 and CA can hold alot of revs. They also both DON'T have hydralic drivetrains. The CA has a cam on bucket setup and the B18C5 has a direct accuating rocker arm and spring setup. This is why Honda engines need valve adjustments.
Not meaning to bust on you, but are you really firm on the concept of a hydraulic lifter? Research it and then you will know why people say the SR20DET's valvetrain "sucks." It has a few advantages(mostly in the NVH and maintence areas), and a few big disadvantages(high RPM, forces involved etc.).
Quote »He can also take the time to coat the pistons to further reduce friction in the engine. There are alot of benefits you stand to gain from replacing the stock internals; regardless of his power level. [/quote]Why would one unnecessarily go inside an engine for at most a 1-3% gain by reducing friction and lightening the parts. This is the most expensive and IMO last step you take in power building. You only go internal when you blow the engine or you simply don't think any of the components can hold up to your intended power output.
Quote »I plan to build a 300rwhp, high response, high revving engine. It involves alot of work to the engine including the internals and some minor port work. Obviously with me using an SR20 engine I can't overlook the head. [/quote]The stock SR20 head flows VERY well. There is absolutely no need to even look at the ports at 300rwhp. Your money would be better spent elsewhere(standalone comes to mind). I bet you if you're running an engine with $10k in machine work at 300rwhp and the stock ECU anywhere in there, I can beat the powerband and responsiveness of it using the same setup plus a stock engine and a well tuned standalone.
You're sitting here talking about spending thousands to swat gnats when the smelly elephant that is the stock ECU or piggyback controllers is sitting in the corner.
Quote »BTW... hydraulic valvetrains can hold alot of RPMs, case and point would be Hondas B18C5 engine. Nissan's CA can hold alot of revolutions as well, but I know your response intended to point out the SR's lifters inability to stay pumped up at higher RPMs. [/quote]
You are correct that both the B18C5 and CA can hold alot of revs. They also both DON'T have hydralic drivetrains. The CA has a cam on bucket setup and the B18C5 has a direct accuating rocker arm and spring setup. This is why Honda engines need valve adjustments.
Not meaning to bust on you, but are you really firm on the concept of a hydraulic lifter? Research it and then you will know why people say the SR20DET's valvetrain "sucks." It has a few advantages(mostly in the NVH and maintence areas), and a few big disadvantages(high RPM, forces involved etc.).
x-nobody wrote:I would consider good response as having instant high power everywhere... I'd settle with a steep linear power curve steady rise power as you increase throttle..
High rpms.. 10,000+... realisticly 8000-9000..
as for the amount of boost.. I'm still a bit out in left field as where I want to go with it.. a core range of 5 -15...
What I want pretty much looks like a pumped up K24 with a small turbo put on it.. I'm still searching around for parts to consider a K24. N/A buildups are expensive either way you slice it and the K24 is perhaps the not so travelled route.
There's still a lot of research to be done for the engine.. I thank everyone for the input, it gives me more guide points and unfortunately more variables to throw in = more research time..
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As for the point of doing up BMW's and those that buy them to... well we live in the wrong country to make it easy on the pocket books.. but none the less there are those that do anyways... besides who want to look like any other bmw.. gotta have yo' style...
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BTW, I've been in the Honda Camp for most of my time in the import scene... its still a mess when you see people arguing how to make power the proper way. they all have there ways but when you see them argue its pretty messed.. I just try to take in everything I can.. walk a route and hope I don't fall off a cliff..
What exactly are you looking to do with this engine? For drifting, I'd honestly want a FLAT torque curve with good spool characteristics then a good clutch LSD with a high amount of preload and locking percentage. Dial in some more anti-squat into the rear suspension and it should be quite easy to get a suspension setup to easily break the rear tires free and make it all controllable.
For track driving, I'd seriously try to make the engine as reliable as possible. FI engines are at a HUGE disadvantage on the track, where you might be at WOT for close to the whole 20-30 min session you're in. I'm assuming you won't be racing since most classes you'd be looking at would have RIDICULOUS competition. Think heavily modded P-car GT3's and SC'd Vipers with the widest Hoosiers and slicks you've ever seen. Where guys with ALOT of money like to play and "build-up" their cars.
I think either a CA18DET or SR20DET, mostly stock, and a mildly upgraded turbo would fit the bill nicely. Either an S15 turbo or a Disco Potato(although I think they're a lil' overpriced now, but a good small turbo).
Put the turbo close to the exhaust ports, and ceramic coat the turbo manifold and turbine section for increased spool. Keep intercooler piping to a minimum and get a VERY good tune. Make sure you aren't running near static open on your injectors, as that seems to be a good recipe for killing an engine on the track.
I am almost positive I'll go the KA24DET route in the future. It sounds like a very interesting engineering challenge. There is more stuff to go wrong, and messups will likely be more catastrophic when they occur. Yet it seems like a damn good time figuring it all out and getting to engineer the whole system to be as efficient as possible.