Spring rates?

Post by **veilside180sx** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:36 am

You are comparing apples to oranges again.

If you are going to bring something into the thread for comparison purposes at least use a comparative vehicle. The geometry of an S2000 is nothing like our S13/S14 chassis. So that gets thrown out of it.

I'm not saying you can't run high spring rates, but if you are going to you darn well better be running Toyo RA-1 or stiffer sidewalls to handle it. Any street tire is going to be a waste of time with anything even more stiff than 7/5.

The Tein RS come with 10/8 which I think is as far as I would go on a R compound shod, never driven on the street vehicle. They also have external reservoirs, and dual adjustments to make the most of those spring rates. Valving can definately make stiff springs more manageable, but with that comes a price...which most won't pay.

Post by **nismofly** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:00 am

sleepyRPS13 wrote:its time for that segment again!

touge monster challenges you!! aka amuse s2000 260ps (2513lbs) /F12kg R14kg advan A048 255 all around.

like veilside said, totally different suspension design, those rates on an s2000 and a 12/14 setup on an s13 are totally unrelated

some honda guys in NASA run in the area of 20k springs, but again its because of the different design

a pretty good example of this i found was looking at the spring rates for one type of coilover, say the jic flta-2, for the different cars some have 6k springs some have 14k springs

a 12/14 setup on an S chassis would have you off the road the first time you hit a bump

Post by **sleepyRPS13** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:56 am

i only show that cus somebody said you cant run high rates on light car on street tires that is streetable. that s2000 is very stock beside a few add-on.

s chassis so far ive seen:10/109/910/89/76/77/5 commented soft on the s15 & 86even on old chassis like 86 and fc also run higher rates.

bmi rules is only street tires. cars are rated on feel & handling and are all streetablecars.

plus i like amuse cars especially the z33 300hp (2932lbs) 14/11 kgmm advan A048 265 all around. har har

Post by **turtl631** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:18 pm

A048s are R comps...and Z33 and S2000 have different suspension geometries, as mentioned. A 10 kg/mm spring translates into different wheel rates with different geometries depending on where it attaches to the control arm, spindle, whatever.

Post by **nismofly** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:50 pm

also ive never done touge, but if im right its not all grip racing, correct?

if your drifting yes higher spring rates are better because the weight will transfer quicker

this originally started out talking about auto-x, which has ties to road racing, both where grip is important, and thats where my argument comes from

Post by **veilside180sx** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:47 pm

Correct this thread has absolutely no relevance to drifting, which unfortunately is what most gear their S13/S14 to cater to.

A friend has 9/7 on his that he tracks regularly but daily drives. It's not much fun on the street, but is still personally I think too stiff for his RT615's. I've driven his car numerous times and have 7/5 on my own and we both prefer my spring rates to his. For both purposes.

Post by **sleepyRPS13** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:14 pm

i do touge and i do not try to drift, i grip as much as i can. try goin downhill in a small tight curvy road, its the same as autox course minus the gravity. also i use the miata time to time, i dont think ill be drifting on it on any touge run.

in bmi touge beside feel & handling there is a time sector, records the fastest times in all cars. also in touge battles the drivers are pushing/racing the cars hard against each other and it is not a drift show, they are not drifting to the finish line. again, not all touge cars are rwd.

also i got the s2k tire spec Ao48 based on ebisu circuit race between the amuse z33 & s2k and esprit* z33. i dunno what excatly tires it runs on touge. i think Ao48 is still a street tire tho. im running rt615 soon, best ST tire testd on grm.

touge is not based on drifting but drifting based on touge. (i hope that made sense. lol)

this reminds me of that rambo movie, when the cop said "we dont want no drifters in here." and rambo said "but, i just want some breakfast" then rambo went renegade on the whole town becuase of that damn hater cop. he just wantd some breakfast.har har har

your right this not about touge but springs. i run 7/5 but i just order 9/8 and maybe later a 1.5kg helper spring on the rear, so i get different rates for my taste. im starting autox soon once i repair my fumes problem, im goin to run 7/8 first then 8/7.

Modified by sleepyRPS13 at 10:51 AM 10/24/2005

Post by **veilside180sx** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:56 am

The A048 is the next advancement/replacement to the A032 which when shaved is basically a slick. The Neova is more of the street tire than the 48, which even at that is pushing the line of R compound.

The 615 is sticky, but it's still not a R compound.

Post by **phuphyter** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:49 pm

veilside180sx wrote: I've driven his car numerous times and have 7/5 on my own and we both prefer my spring rates to his. For both purposes.

Can you describe your daily drive with the 7/5's? I'm considering getting KTS with 7/5 rates in the future. How's the harshness over usual road imperfections/ railroad tracks? Do you experience any unwanted loss of traction anytime when driving on street tires?

Post by **eddiec** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:27 am

i run k-sport 7f/5r set up and in my opinion its a little stiff. add to the fact that these units suk and the dampning is not proportional to the spring rates supplied with the c/o's.

to help lower the effective wheel rate i switched my hicas rear bar for a smaller stocker. seems to help with little negative affects.

Post by **veilside180sx** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:15 am

I don't think the dampening is altogether terrible. A buddy of mine is getting a set of KTS for his new S14, and is switching from a set of 9/7 D2's. We'll see how the change helps.

The 7/5 are fine on smooth roads. On bumpy backroads I still get bounced around. Sometimes uncomfortably while going fast.

Post by **phuphyter** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:25 pm

Thanks for the info guys.

Post by **91rs13** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:23 am

eddiec wrote:i run k-sport 7f/5r set up and in my opinion its a little stiff. add to the fact that these units suk and the dampning is not proportional to the spring rates supplied with the c/o's. to help lower the effective wheel rate i switched my hicas rear bar for a smaller stocker. seems to help with little negative affects.

What condition are the AutoX sites you run on--bumpy? smooth?

Do you find the car pushes more with the 7K springs up front? How bad was the back end before you switched sway bars? ( AutoX course)

ThanksDJ

Post by **sleepyRPS13** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:12 pm

wut a wuss

Post by **UK-SRi** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:48 pm

Well those spring rates might be high, but when you adjust for the geometry and look at the rate of compression AT THE TYRE you get numbers much closer to the nissan numbers. Basically the spring is mounted much further in and needs a higher rate to overcome the leverage issue.

Mike

Post by **LiU** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:54 am

talk to GC and see what they suggest, get the KONIs revalved maybe shortened and converted to external adjustable in the rear, you'll be set. After that you should still have a coupla hundred left over for new springs if you feel they're needed. Say no to high spring rates and not sticky enough tires.

Post by **91rs13** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:53 pm

LiU wrote:talk to GC and see what they suggest, get the KONIs revalved maybe shortened and converted to external adjustable in the rear, you'll be set. After that you should still have a coupla hundred left over for new springs if you feel they're needed. Say no to high spring rates and not sticky enough tires.

Pretty much what i had decided. Thanks for the advice.

Post by **InsanityInc** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:02 pm

The odd part about upgrading your suspension with aftermarket suspension parts is that you'll generally make the car understeer a lot more if you're not careful.

Say you get 8/6 springs and 27/21 sways. That's inducing a lot more understeer than the stock setup of 2/2 and 21/16 (21/18 HICAS models).

My preference has always been matched rates F/R for springs, adjustable sways and messing with tire sizes.

Post by **UK-SRi** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:08 am

I thought that the spring rates at each end should be close to the ratio of weights on each end to keep chassis torsion and dynamics under control.

Mike

Post by **naed240sx** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:14 am

UK-SRi wrote:I thought that the spring rates at each end should be close to the ratio of weights on each end to keep chassis torsion and dynamics under control.

Mike

You forget that spring rate is not directly related to the wheel rate. The multilink suspension in the rear and length of the suspension arms causes the effective spring rate at the wheels to be closer to the front, even though the actuall spring rate is less.

Post by **float_6969** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:35 am

I'm in a little late on this, but I'll still give my $.02.

From experience, most people I know have their car too stiff. Most of these people rarely race/autoX, but do some street drifting. The ONLY time the car is nice to drive is the drifting. On the street they are harsh and at the limit. They rarely road race or autoX, and even if they did, they'd be using street tires, and the car wouldn't be much better.

Here is a real life example for you; I have an S13 w/ a completely stock suspension, with 218K miles on it. This thing is MUSHY! My fiance drives a 91' Miata with full suspension on Azenis's. During our autoX's, she almost always beats me. I've got her beat on power to weight by almost double, but my suspension sucks. BUT, when we go to an autoX with a rough surface, or when we are racing on the streets (I know, i know, it's bad, yada, yada, yada. We're smart about it and go to remote parts of town where we'll only kill ourselves) I ALWAYS beat her. Why? Her car is too stiffly sprung. She's running KYB AGX's, and for the street, she's got to run both the front and back at 75% full stiff to keep the springs from bouncing. Her car is aweful on the street, and on a bumpy track, she's always slower.

From my experience, and a lot of personal preference, I'd much rather run a car with softer springs. You can turn the struts down for daily driving and not kill the sidewalls on your tires, but turn them up, and with a decent set of adjustable antisway bars, still corner just as flat as a stiffly sprung car.

Post by **UK-SRi** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:16 am

naed240sx wrote:
You forget that spring rate is not directly related to the wheel rate. The multilink suspension in the rear and length of the suspension arms causes the effective spring rate at the wheels to be closer to the front, even though the actuall spring rate is less.

Ah, well, having a P10 G20 I have multilink on every corner, but even then the effective rates may be different.

Mike

PS, does anyone know the ratio of spring rate to wheel rate for the P10, front and rear?
Modified by UK-SRi at 9:52 AM 11/23/2005

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:16 pm

UK-SRi wrote:Ah, well, having a P10 G20 I have multilink on every corner, but even then the effective rates may be different.

Mike

PS, does anyone know the ratio of spring rate to wheel rate for the P10, front and rear?

Modified by UK-SRi at 9:52 AM 11/23/2005

You need to post in the SE-R Cup forum on http://www.sr20forum.com

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:17 pm

InsanityInc wrote:The odd part about upgrading your suspension with aftermarket suspension parts is that you'll generally make the car understeer a lot more if you're not careful.

Say you get 8/6 springs and 27/21 sways. That's inducing a lot more understeer than the stock setup of 2/2 and 21/16 (21/18 HICAS models).

My preference has always been matched rates F/R for springs, adjustable sways and messing with tire sizes.

Incorrect... you are failing to understand the dynamics of the suspension in compression.

It's also equally ignorant to say a certain setup is going to create understeer without the specifics of the rest of the suspension and the chassis setup.

Post by **nismofly** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:35 pm

Nismo_Freak wrote:It's also equally ignorant to say a certain setup is going to create understeer without the specifics of the rest of the suspension and the chassis setup.

zer...age=1

91rs13 did you ever get stuff after this or is it waiting until spring/after winter

Post by **91rs13** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:15 pm

nismofly wrote:
91rs13 did you ever get stuff after this or is it waiting until spring/after winter

Waiting for the Xmas and New Years season to be over--then it will be time to order parts.---You know how it is in the Northeast.

BTW-Nismo -If you want to try a track day this coming year, the BMW club I am associated with will have one Jun 12/13 at WGI ( we also run 2x at Lime Rock Park). Nissans welcome.

DJ

Post by **nismofly** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:32 pm

i believe ill be able to make it, as long as i get enough of my parts and install them so i could pass tech

i actually need springs and shocks myself, but im doing a kyb/rs*r down combo

Post by **UK-SRi** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:52 am

Bump,

I have asked on SR20forum too, but someone must know surely?

Ah, well, having a P10 G20 I have multilink on every corner, but even then the effective rates may be different.

Mike

PS, does anyone know the ratio of spring rate to wheel rate for the P10, front and rear?

Mike

Spring rates?

Re: (sleepyRPS13)

fly fishing

Re: (veilside180sx)

Re: (eddiec)

Re: (sleepyRPS13)

Re: (UK-SRi)

Re: (LiU)

Re: (UK-SRi)

Re: (naed240sx)

Re: (UK-SRi)

Re: (InsanityInc)

Re: (Nismo_Freak)

Re: (nismofly)

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