Something We Should All Read

[WDRacing]

This is a post I made in one of the other threads here, I just felt we all could use a reminder of why we're here. This is a Tech Forum for specific things to be discussed. There has been a lot of bad info tossed around as of late. Whether it has been a mis-written point or simply something that is just wrong.

I hate the term band-aid fix. That's a BS phrase used by people who think they know everything. If it works and you're happy with the end result is it a band-aid? No...

I've seen K-cars run 11's in the quarter with 4 extra injectors controlled by 4 separate hobbs switches. That's faster then most members on this board will EVER go. And it was a DIY setup that we could all be proud of.

It all boils down to this. Everyone will tune and mod their car to the best of their ability. It's our job as friends and members to assist in anyway we can. If Joey Baganacho's only has $300 to spend, I'll teach him how to build a nice cheap 2 stage extra injector setup for all his fuel needs. If he has 3 grand, then I'll help him tune his AEM EMS. But I will not simply voice uniformed opinions on a matter that someone else is currently seeking answers to.

WDh

[240Knightrider]

This is post I made in one of the other threads here, I just felt we all could use a reminder of why we're here. This is a Tech Forum for specific things to be discussed. There has been alot of bad info tossed around as of late. Whether it has been a mis-written point or simply somthing that is just wrong.

I hate the term bandaid fix. Thats a BS phrase used by people who think they know everything. If it works and you're happy with the end result is it a bandaid? No...

I've seen K-cars run 11's in the quarter with 4 extra injectors controlled by 4 seperate hobbs switches. Thats faster then most members on this board will EVER go. And it was a DIY setup that we could all be proud of.

It all boils down to this. Everyone will tune and mod their car to the best of their ability. It's our job as friends and members to assist in anyway we can. If Joey Baganacho's only has $300 to spend, I'll teach him how to build a nice cheap 2 stage extra injector setup for all his fuel needs. If he has 3 grand, then I'll help him tune his AEM EMS. But I will not simply voice uniformed opinions on a matter that someone else is currently seeking answers to.

WD

Glad someone else has noticed that....its to hard to ask a question anymore without 5 of the first post being someones "opinion"

[Jookmasta]

point taken, but i really wonder how easy it really is to not give someone ur opinion on the matter when lets just say for example, they are asking if their plans for their ka-t setup has all the right components or if they feel they are missing something. it seems like everyday, there's a new thread about something similar which i personally dont mind, but i was wondering what u mean by "uninformed opinion". technically, we are all giving opinions if one person says go with 480cc injectors but they are running something different. I definitely agree that misinformation has been spread around but i really don't think we have much control over it besides correcting the person or the post. thats just my take on it but as knightrider said:

[Florida240sx]

I think his post is more of saying if you haven't done it yourself, then don't give your info/opinion.

[1WheelWonder]

Amen Wd.

[WDRacing]

Opinions are going to be used all the time. It's simply a matter of how the opinion is worded and the context it is used in. If you take Ivan's opinion for example compared to mine. Both of us have built and broken tons of motors in different platforms under different circumstances. Ivan hates piggy backs where I do not. This doesn't make either of us right. But Ivan isn't going to say something won't work simply because it varies from his way of doing things.

Express your opinion and list reasons why you have made that choice. But make sure you're staying close to a persons actual goals.

By uninformed, I mean you are giving an opinion without having all the facts or hands on knowledge of a particular system/setup. That isn't saying you need to be an expert on something to voice an opinion, but like I said in the first part of this post, it's all how you say something.

Let me break it down like the Military does, not that I agree with everything the military does. We use this as a baseline for expressing yourself on a particular matter and to consider your audience. It's not what you say or how you say it, but rather how the person you're speaking to understands it.

Am I saying you can't post your opinion, hell no, but I am saying that you shouldn't state something is wrong or right unless you have some informed knowledge to base your opinion on. Like me saying something "running 10psi of boost with no timing retard is ok as long as your AFR's are kept under 14.7:1" That is simply incorrect. Where as I could say something like "you can run about 8-9 lbs of boost with no timing retard as long as you keep your AFR's around 11:1" Because I have done so myself and have knowledge of several people who have also done so.

I know everyone makes mistakes...I do A LOT. I also post out of context and thread jack just like you guys do. But there has been an increasing amount of bad info floating around. It's my job to make sure things flow well and that some new guy to turbo's doesn't smoke his KA because he saw something on here and took it for gospel.

Hope that helps explain my point.

WD

[fiznat]

*wiping tear from eye* Well put buddy, well put. This thread is on the verge of stickey material, no?

[Craving4Boost]

its going to be complete once you add in some extra flavor fiz

[WDRacing]

Lets give it a couple days befoire we sticky it...stickies are the last thing read...lol.

[KATwo40]

I agree that misinformation is a bad thing. However, I think your definition of misinformation is skewed.

Supporting evidence to prove my opinion (as aparently is now required):

In the thread about timing, which lead to an argument about water injection and it's validity, you stated that a daily driver running 12:1 on boost will most certainly be unsafe.

In reality, you can research any high performance tuning book to find out that this is simply NOT TRUE.

Not trying to cary one argumentative thread to another. Just trying to point out that you might want to evaluate your own validity before you poopoo someone else for giving "misinformation."

[Craving4Boost]

with anything past 8psi...9.5:1 compression..28* at WOT...i would be scared to have AFR's in the 12 range. but yes its true 12.5AFR is ideal..correct? if youhave race gas its safe

[Jookmasta]

thanks for the explanation wd. u are right, i guess it just boils down to limiting the misinformation and just tryin to help out others without giving them info that could put them in a sticky situation. and yes i think we shouldnt sticky this as of yet cuz we know that sticky's are probably read last.

[KATwo40]

with anything past 8psi...9.5:1 compression..28* at WOT...i would be scared to have AFR's in the 12 range. but yes its true 12.5AFR is ideal..correct? if youhave race gas its safe

This is a conversation to be held in another post.

[WDRacing]

I agree that misinformation is a bad thing. However, I think your definition of misinformation is skewed.

Supporting evidence to prove my opinion (as aparently is now required):

In the thread about timing, which lead to an argument about water injection and it's validity, you stated that a daily driver running 12:1 on boost will most certainly be unsafe.

In reality, you can research any high performance tuning book to find out that this is simply NOT TRUE.

Not trying to cary one argumentative thread to another. Just trying to point out that you might want to evaluate your own validity before you poopoo someone else for giving "misinformation."

Show me a high performance tuning book that lists the 240sx under boost and I'll gladly recant. Until then, I'll stick with my safe daily driving number being a max of 11.5:1

No you don't have to list facts. But if you're strongly persuading someone in a certain direction it won't hurt.

As far as policy is concerned, I've already been given the green light from h forum the entire administration that runs NICO. If you have an issue with the way I moderate things please feel free to email any of the Admins to include Greg, AZHitman and confer your issues with them.

As a side note, I run my car at 12.7-12.8 while injecting methonal. You will make the most power around the 12.5 area. This again is somthing I've done myself and wittnessed on several different cars.

WD

[nissanfanatic]

I try as hard as possible to speak only from an expirience/factual standpoint. Most often, anything I say I can back up with either:

A) resultsB) a link

What works works and that is that. Agreed.

[nissanfanatic]

Air/fuel ratio "saftey" greatly depends on:

A) Intake air tempB) Cylinder pressurec) Fuel octane

What I do is run around 11:1 at 4000-5000rpm because that is where peak torque occurs. You NEED the added cooling of extra fuel in that area because Peak Cylinder Pressure occurs there which in turn causes very high cylinder temperatures. Towards the end of the RPM range, I lean it out to 12 and even 12.5 on some occasions. And this is at 15psi+ with 93 octane pump gas and a fully stock DOHC.

[virus77]

I try as hard as possible to speak only from an expirience/factual standpoint. Most often, anything I say I can back up with either:

A) resultsB) a link

What works works and that is that. Agreed.

I usually dont even speak about facts, just my experiances. But backed up facts are just as good.

[C-Kwik]

Here is my rule of thumb. If it is your opinion, make it clear that it is opinion. Perhaps, put some information to back up your opinion.

[Craving4Boost]

Air/fuel ratio "saftey" greatly depends on:

A) Intake air tempB) Cylinder pressurec) Fuel octane

What I do is run around 11:1 at 4000-5000rpm because that is where peak torque occurs. You NEED the added cooling of extra fuel in that area because Peak Cylinder Pressure occurs there which in turn causes very high cylinder temperatures. Towards the end of the RPM range, I lean it out to 12 and even 12.5 on some occasions. And this is at 15psi+ with 93 octane pump gas and a fully stock DOHC.

cory, im curious on what were the AFR's BEFORE you tuned it with the SAFC. btw totally agree with how you tuned it

[nissanfanatic]

Right at/slightly below 11:1. Lowest I ever saw at 10-12psi was 10.8:1.

Now that I am doing 16-17psi, I'm seeing a few 10s at my current SAFC tune. Not sure if I have a boost leak somewhere or not, but either way, its fast, so I'm not complaining.

[Florida240sx]

Soemthign I'm noticing is peopel are syaign what they are running.For WD to be in the clear for someone not to come back on to him he is sayign 11 AFR is safe. Which is by all means. I personally run 12.5. Which is safe but nto as safe as 11. Also every car is different. exact same setup could differ between the 2 cars. But 11 AFR is goign to be safe no matter what you do.While 12.5 COULD be safe there is no way to guarantee that it will be on your car. He's ggoign of facts that he has personally witnessed. You have your own facts abotu what you have witnessed.But don't get into an argument over something when both parties are correct, because both parties had different vehicles. Unless you have firsthand experience of the other party being wrong then keep your mouth shut. If you ahve your own opinion that differs.Post it but give some kind of info to back up your statement. Forum is to help others, not to make enemies.

[S14tat]

i think from now on to make things more clear for the people who ask questions to that when we state our opinions, we need to make sure they know that what we say is based due to our personal experience and that every setup is different as well as where we are located in the states since temp and octane ratings varies. this way its up to the person to decide which opinion suits his need the most.

[hannibal]

I often find myself in a dilemma. Someone asks a rather basic question that Ive heard several times. I start repeating the answers that Ive heard before. I have no personal experience with the subject, but Ive read and heard many discussions. I wouldnt repeat something that I wasnt convinced is true. But like C-Kwik suggested, I try to make it clear that my response comes from researching others setups, not my own personal experience.

When it comes down to someone's personal experience vs what Ive heard, I always back off cause I have no leg to stand on. I'm dying to turn this theoretical knowlege into personal experience.

Sometimes, I feel like I should add a disclaimer in my sig...

[KATwo40]

Sometimes, I feel like I should add a disclaimer in my sig...

That made me laugh out loud!

[95 kat]

i know it sounds bad but i just pick someones set-up and try to build like theirs but with my own touches. I read everyone's opinions but i talk to one person who lives about 150 miles from me to ask my questions about my ka-t. His car made like 406 whp and he seems very smart and has always helped me no problem and answered all my dumb questions from when i was just thinking to hard.

I pester klattr all the time on instant messenger. it is just nice knowing he has done it and isnt that far away.

I just really like how people respond to your questions. Because sometimes I ask some crazy questions, not sure if it is from thinking to hard or retardedness.

All i can say is thanks guys for all your help and I hope to have mine running in a few weeks.

[Craving4Boost]

i know it sounds bad but i just pick someones set-up and try to build like theirs but with my own touches. I read everyone's opinions but i talk to one person who lives about 150 miles from me to ask my questions about my ka-t. His car made like 406 whp and he seems very smart and has always helped me no problem and answered all my dumb questions from when i was just thinking to hard.

I pester klattr all the time on instant messenger. it is just nice knowing he has done it and isnt that far away.

I just really like how people respond to your questions. Because sometimes I ask some crazy questions, not sure if it is from thinking to hard or retardedness.

All i can say is thanks guys for all your help and I hope to have mine running in a few weeks.

its not bad at all man. i used to do the same thing and i basically still do just not as extreme. if it works for them, it has to work for us right. i think new people dont do it ENOUGH. people are like aw man i cant ever get 300hp..thats out of my league..or 400hp. but if you look at a peron's list at that power...its really nothing rocket science about it. Money is the main factor and doing it right the first time.

[WDRacing]

This thread is going exactly like I hoped it would. People conversing openly and things being resolved in a way that everyone can relate to.

Just like family should...

WD

[Craving4Boost]

yes...family time. i think were ready for the SR vs KA-T threads back!

yeah right...

[WDRacing]

I dunno about that...I may tend to be more objective to the SR swap this time. They can run ALL DAY at 400whp without tossing rods through the block...lol.

[Florida240sx]

I dunno about that...I may tend to be more objective to the SR swap this time. They can run ALL DAY at 400whp without tossing rods through the block...lol.

Because they don't got the torque to do it.I'm trying to get my new KA in my car and head back down to Vero beach so can race the old owner who now has an sr.There will be a video, of both of us @10psi. Think I might fork out the $$$ to get suspension and better tires before it happens though.....You know just in case I fall asleep when he says go.