So, now that Palin is not seeking re-election.....

[BusyBadger]

Creationism, to be held as a serious scientific theory, would first require substantial scientific evidence of a creator.

I was wondering when someone was going to post this up. I held off because it strays into the "No religious topics" DMZ.

The problem then, if the existence of a Creator could be proven, is with faith.

Faith - firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Anyone else see a problem with that? Suddenly, believers attempting to prove the correctness of their belief(s) will have eliminated the element of faith through their own actions.

[Kohster]

How many of you creationists believe the bible is inerrant?

[audtatious]

Guys, the discussion of creationism within this thread was to the point of "teaching" it's basic viewpoint along with evolution, not to slide into some religious significance.

No more discussion of creationism nor evolution in this thread, stick to the original topic,

[Kohster]

/thread killed

[Bubba1]

We should get back to Palin. I just glanced at the 19 ethics charges that Palin faced. I agree several were frivolous, but not all them. And not all of the charges were dismissed. Some are actually still pending, but it's interesting to look at WHY some of those charges were dismissed. They were not necessarily because Palin was innocent, but because of legal technicalities, her having very good lawyers, plus her living in Alaska which has unique politics.

For example, the 10/24/08 ethics charge that she abused her power by charging the state for her childrens expenses whenever they travelled with her. The reason the charges were dismissed were not because she was innocent, but because she repaid $10,000 in order to avoid conviction.

As far as one of the more famous ethics complaints, whether she abused her power when she fired Public Safety Commisioner Walt Monegan for refusing to fire Palin's brother-in-law, a state trooper who was going thru a contentious divorce with Palin's sister. Monegan cited there was nothing on the troopers service record to warrant the firing.

Although Palin's actions were personal and vindictive in nature, the complaint was dismissed on a technicality. Monegan's job as Commissoner was considered under Alaska law to be "at will" which meant he could be let go without any cause.

In a related but separate complaint, The Public Safety Employee Assn filed that Palin's staff (including her husband) made unauthorized access and then illegally made public personal employer info about Palin's brother in law. In what appeared to be a slick legal move, Palin's lawyers got this charge merged with the Monegan complaint (which had a strong legal footing in Palin's favor), and got dismissed. But had it been left as an individual complaint, Palin and her staff would have likely been found guilty.

IMHO being cleared some of these ethics charges do not exonerate Palin. It more appears she has good lawyers.

Flame away.

[heliochrome85]

We should get back to Palin. I just glanced at the 19 ethics charges that Palin faced. I agree several were frivolous, but not all them. And not all of the charges were dismissed. Some are actually still pending, but it's interesting to look at WHY some of those charges were dismissed. They were not necessarily because Palin was innocent, but because of legal technicalities, her having very good lawyers, plus her living in Alaska which has unique politics.

For example, the 10/24/08 ethics charge that she abused her power by charging the state for her childrens expenses whenever they travelled with her. The reason the charges were dismissed were not because she was innocent, but because she repaid $10,000 in order to avoid conviction.

As far as one of the more famous ethics complaints, whether she abused her power when she fired Public Safety Commisioner Walt Monegan for refusing to fire Palin's brother-in-law, a state trooper who was going thru a contentious divorce with Palin's sister. Monegan cited there was nothing on the troopers service record to warrant the firing.

Although Palin's actions were personal and vindictive in nature, the complaint was dismissed on a technicality. Monegan's job as Commissoner was considered under Alaska law to be "at will" which meant he could be let go without any cause.

In a related but separate complaint, The Public Safety Employee Assn filed that Palin's staff (including her husband) made unauthorized access and then illegally made public personal employer info about Palin's brother in law. In what appeared to be a slick legal move, Palin's lawyers got this charge merged with the Monegan complaint (which had a strong legal footing in Palin's favor), and got dismissed. But had it been left as an individual complaint, Palin and her staff would have likely been found guilty.

IMHO being cleared some of these ethics charges do not exonerate Palin. It more appears she has good lawyers.

Flame away.

wrong. it was the big bad liberal jewish mainstream media, who kowtow to OBAMA THE MAGNIFICENT, who is at fault. naturally, this is time when they arent trying to promote the destruction of the Palin family by attacking her poor defenseless children.

The woman is a period, on a page of a multivolume history of our country. Thats as much as she deserves to be mentioned. She represents a dark period of our society, which I hope we will be able to overcome and move beyond. Her sheer ignorance, and disdain for any actual knowledge is exactly what is wrong with this country. I'm glad to see her gone, and I'm glad that she will finally get the peace and quiet and anonymity she long demanded.

[audtatious]

1. Palin getting paid for media interviews - dismissed in part because it was not properly notarized and it being already determined that interviews did not violate ethics laws - Raymond Alvin Ward - Filed Jul 15

2. Palin PAC legal defense fund - Kim Chatman - Filed recently

3. That two days before Palin was named John McCain's running mate in the fall of 2008, she signed travel documents that stated "conclusion of state business." and should have turned over Gov seat to Lt. Gov but continued collecting salary - Andree McLeod - Filed July 13th 2009, dismissed Jul 24

4. Palin allegedly receiving "improper gifts" and/or failing to disclose such gifts - Andree McLeod - Filed July 20 2009

5. Palin charging the state for her children to travel with her while conducing official state business - Frank Gwartney - Filed Oct 2008 - Dismissed after Palin paid back appx 9k before the complaint was acted upon thus the board found no wrongdoing and dismissed.

6. Palin's possible breach of confidentiality by publicly releasing Trooper Mike Wooten's files - Troopers Union - Filed Sept 5th 2008 - Complaint ruled unsubstantiated

7. Palin ethics complaint against herself about Troopergate - Sarah Palin - Filed Sept 1st 2008 - Independent investigator concluded there was no probably cause of an ethics violation - Nov 23, 2008

8. Palin breaching state hiring rules - Andree McLeod - Filed August 6 2008 - Dismissed due to lack of probably cause

9. Palin claiming per diem for staying in her Wasilla home during 2008 - Zane Henning - Filed July 6th, 2009

10, Palin's attendance at SarahPAC-sponsored dinner in Indiana- Sondra Tompkins- Filed April 23rd, 2009 - Dismissed May 8th as complaint did not allege facts constituting a violation of the Ethics Act. Complaint

11. Palin wearing a Team Arctic jacket at an official state event, constituting implicit advertising - Linda Kellen Biegel - Filed March 25th, 2009 - Dismissed May 27th

12. using state staff and resources for political purposes on two occasions, once at a GOP dinner and once during the presidential campaign - Andree McLeod - Filed March 18th, 2009

13. Complaints against two of Gov. Sarah Palin's top aides, alleging they misused their positions to promote the governor's political ambitions - Andree McLeod - Filed Jan 23 2009

14. ethics complaint against Palin's Anchorage office director Kris Perry - Andee McLeod - Filed January 23rd, 2009 - Dismissed as there was no evidence "suggesting that Perry misused her state time in any substantial way or did not intend to benefit the public interest when accompanying the governor on her trips."

15. Alligation that the governor and aide Kris Perry violated the ethics act during a trip to Georgia in which the governor campaigned for Senator Saxby Chambliss - Anthony Martin - Dismissed May 12, 2009 as complaint unsubstatiated

16. Branchflower Troopergate Investigation - Finding one of the report says she violated Alaska statute 39.52.110(a) in that she failed to stop her husband, from pressuring state employees to fire Trooper Mike Wooten. It also found that the termination was likely related to his refusal to get rid of Wooten but still amounted to a "proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads." The final conclusion by the Alaska Personnel Board determined that Palin had not violated ethics laws, contradicting the previous report. Tim Petumenos, the lawyer hired by the Board to conduct the probe, was quoted as stating in his final report, "There is no probable cause to believe that the governor, or any other state official, violated the Alaska Executive Ethics Act in connection with these matters."

17. Palin receiving per diem for meals while staying at her house in Wasilla - State upheld the practice but declared the money that politicians receive for per diem is taxable income.

[audtatious]

wrong. it was the big bad liberal jewish mainstream media, who kowtow to OBAMA THE MAGNIFICENT, who is at fault. naturally, this is time when they arent trying to promote the destruction of the Palin family by attacking her poor defenseless children.

The woman is a period, on a page of a multivolume history of our country. Thats as much as she deserves to be mentioned. She represents a dark period of our society, which I hope we will be able to overcome and move beyond. Her sheer ignorance, and disdain for any actual knowledge is exactly what is wrong with this country. I'm glad to see her gone, and I'm glad that she will finally get the peace and quiet and anonymity she long demanded.

Hate is a bad color on you. I dislike Obama but don't hate him like you and others seem to hate Palin.

[heliochrome85]

Palin Legal Donations May Have Violated Ethics Law, Report Finds

By Kimberly Kindy and Phillip RuckerWashington Post Staff WritersWednesday, July 22, 2009

An independent investigator has determined that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R) may have violated state ethics laws by soliciting and accepting private donations to pay $500,000 in legal debts.

A confidential report, obtained by The Washington Post on Tuesday, says Palin may have violated laws prohibiting elected officials from using their office for "personal gain" by raising money for her Alaska Fund Trust. Supporters established the fund to help defend herself against more than a dozen ethics complaints filed against her since she took office.

"There is little doubt that the Alaska Fund Trust will provide 'personal gain' to Governor Palin because the trust will provide a benefit to the governor's financial interest," Anchorage lawyer Thomas M. Daniel wrote in his nine-page report, dated July 14.

Palin is scheduled to leave office this weekend, about 18 months before the end of her first term.

Daniel, who was hired by the state personnel board to investigate a complaint by Alaskan Kim Chatman, declined to discuss the contents of his report but outlined the process for handling it. After reviewing the report, Palin could decide to settle or the issue could go before an administrative law judge for a hearing, he said.

Among Daniel's recommendations in the report are that Palin "refuse to accept payment for her legal fees and costs" from the fund and ask the state to reimburse her for legal fees incurred for complaints that are dismissed.

Daniel's report also highlights the relationship between the fund's trustee, Kristan Cole, and Palin. The governor appointed Cole, a longtime friend, to positions on the Royalty Oil and Gas Commission and the Board of Agriculture and Conservation.

"The relationship between Ms. Cole and the governor could cause a 'reasonable person' to conclude that the payment of the governor's legal fees is intended to influence the governor's performance of official duties, action or judgment," Daniel wrote.

Cole defended the legality of the fund, which is still accepting donations, and said it was "thoroughly vetted by numerous attorneys from Alaska to the East Coast."

The attorney who helped Palin set up the fund denounced Daniel's conclusion. "There is no impropriety in the creation or operation of such a trust, and any suggestion to the contrary is candidly absurd," said Randy Evans, adding that Palin's fund "was specifically patterned after well-recognized trusts of prior presidential candidates."

And Palin's personal attorney said that the release of Daniel's report was premature and illegal. "The matter is still pending. Whatever you have seen was released in violation of law," Thomas Van Flein said in a statement.

Van Flein added that the governor was looking into her legal options over what he called a "clear violation" of Alaska law. "We will be contacting the appropriate authorities for review and action," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

[heliochrome85]

Hate is a bad color on you. I dislike Obama but don't hate him like you and others seem to hate Palin.

I find that hard to believe. You fail to miss any opportunity to mock him, or his policies which are always disagreeable. But hey, I could be wrong.

As I have said before, she and her supporters seem to think that willingful ignorance is OK in a President. That a lack of curiosity about the world is OK in a President. That Xenophobia is OK in a President. Creationism is not Science. Not everyone in the US conforms to the laws of Christianity, nor should they be expected to. Making rash and misleading statements like "Obama is Pallin' around with Terrorists." is inflammatory at best, and misguided/petty at least. Parading your children in front of the media, then demanding that they be left out of the election process, and that they are being harassed by the media, is ridiculous. You are right, I hate this woman. Not for who she is, but for what she represents. Its high time people recognize what she is, a hypocritical farce.

[audtatious]

Guilty until proven innocent. Can we go after HillPAC who raised money to pay off her campaign debt? Seems pretty similar. Where are all the leaked documents this year against the Dem majority as it seemed there were tons of leaked info over the last 8 years?

I do agree with the above that the state should take up the cost of her legal defense for those that are dismissed. Taking it to a higher level I think those who press forth these failed suits should have to pay her lawyer and the state back. I also don't see her benefiting financially if the money is simply used to repay legal fees for defense. It's not like she is gaining money over what she had. If there was money left over after all is said and done and she put it in her pocket then I would agree that she benefited from it. That's not the case at this point.

Looks like Andree McLeod is a 6 time loser and has really blown lots of court time and money in her attempt to destroy the person she hates. She's probably kicking herself for not bringing up a couple hundred ethics complaints against Bush......

[audtatious]

I find that hard to believe. You fail to miss any opportunity to mock him, or his policies which are always disagreeable. But hey, I could be wrong.

At this point there is simply too much agenda-driven crap added to every one of the Dem bills that are being passed. I had similar issues with Republicans passing ear marked BS as well. The potential good parts of his initiatives are hugely overshadowed by socialist agenda.

In 6 months with a Dem controlled gov, what have they successfully done?

As I have said before, she and her supporters seem to think that willingful ignorance is OK in a President. That a lack of curiosity about the world is OK in a President. That Xenophobia is OK in a President. Creationism is not Science. Not everyone in the US conforms to the laws of Christianity, nor should they be expected to. Making rash and misleading statements like "Obama is Pallin' around with Terrorists." is inflammatory at best, and misguided/petty at least. Parading your children in front of the media, then demanding that they be left out of the election process, and that they are being harassed by the media, is ridiculous. You are right, I hate this woman. Not for who she is, but for what she represents. Its high time people recognize what she is, a hypocritical farce.

You are right, we need to follow the leaders in the Dem party. Military personnel are killers and rapists. Anyone who has any relation to Christianity is a right-wing country bumpkin religious bible thumping extremist. Consorting with socialists, communists and convicted terrorists is OK. Embryonic stem cells is the miracle prescription as long as you ignore lack of supporting evidence. Evolution is the solution as long as you ignore the holes. Repression of Christianity is the only solution while bowing down to special needs of those of Muslim faith. Paying taxes, parking tickets, etc. is optional until it's found out and you are applying for a new position. The direction to resolve the problem of debt spending is to spend 10x more. Guns are the problem as legal gun owners are 100% responsible for crime because all criminals follow established gun laws. Tax now, tax more and tax even more later will help the growing number of poor who rely on the Gov. Lobbyists are bad unless they are wanted by the Dem controlled political system to fill new roles and Czar positions. Alternative viewpoints are great unless they conflict with the viewpoints of those in power. The GOP and Bush have caused all issues with the world today as history started with Bush and every action since that time is a direct repercussion as during his 8 years as ruler he and the GOP were the only ones in charge. blah blah blah

I think we are on board with the same thinking here.

[srellim234]

Now that she's out of office I think Palin is hoping to be tabbed as the new Director at NASA. In her own mind she's an expert on space since she can see the moon from her home in Wasilla....

[heliochrome85]

now you are just being difficult.

I did not say the Dems were better. At all.

You are right, we need to follow the leaders in the Dem party. Military personnel are killers and rapists.

good job dissecting the arguement like that. maybe it is that we can be critical and supportive at the same time. or is it WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS 4 EVAR!!!!

Anyone who has any relation to Christianity is a right-wing country bumpkin religious bible thumping extremist.

No, just those who think Homosexuality is a disease, and those who are homosexual are damnable by the state.

Consorting with socialists, communists and convicted terrorists is OK.

When was communism an exception to freedom of thought? Or socialism for that matter? How bout that Bill Ayers has since rejoined society as a regular guy. I guess Obama was rightfully characterised as "Pallin' around with terrorists," after all, Palin, who is married to a Secessionist, would know.

Embryonic stem cells is the miracle prescription as long as you ignore lack of supporting evidence.

Science isnt and never should be directed by the whims of non-scientists. Embryonic stem cells have shown their potential, but the lack of federal funding has severely hindered any progress. I guess we should just have given up on finding a polio vaccine in 1950 because of no evidence.

Evolution is the solution as long as you ignore the holes.

Viruses evolve. Bacteria evolve. Humans evolve. There is simply is no way to test the theories Creationism/Intelligent design propose.

Repression of Christianity is the only solution while bowing down to special needs of those of Muslim faith.

Thats part of the cost of living in a country that espouses the freedom of religion.

Paying taxes, parking tickets, etc. is optional until it's found out and you are applying for a new position.

Mistakes have been made, but hell, if you are such an expert on Tax code that you have never made a mistake, then you can do my taxes anytime.

The direction to resolve the problem of debt spending is to spend 10x more.

When the economy is stagnant, and no one is spending on anything, then yes, its the governments job to come in and start spending. You cant fix the country on the cheap.

Guns are the problem as legal gun owners are 100% responsible for crime because all criminals follow established gun laws.

Yes because Virginia Tech, Columbine, etc were all due to knives... Give me a break. There is no need for assault rifles. I really couldnt care less about guns, I just think that there should be increased screening on who should be able to buy them.

Tax now, tax more and tax even more later will help the growing number of poor who rely on the Gov.

There is a social responsibility for those who gain the most from the system to contribute the most to the system. The freedom to make 200 million, means you also should be required to pay more than the guy who makes 21,000.

Lobbyists are bad unless they are wanted by the Dem controlled political system to fill new roles and Czar positions.

Lobbyists are bad for both sides. They are a cancer that cant be easily excised.

Alternative viewpoints are great unless they conflict with the viewpoints of those in power.

Yes, because it was the Left that called the opposition, anti-american.

The GOP and Bush have caused all issues with the world today as history started with Bush and every action since that time is a direct repercussion as during his 8 years as ruler he and the GOP were the only ones in charge.

They were far from saints. They deserve the criticism they garner. Bush did alot of campaigning in 2008 did he? Even your own party thinks he was a failure.

[audtatious]

now you are just being difficult.

Of course I am. Who loves ya babe?

good job dissecting the arguement like that. maybe it is that we can be critical and supportive at the same time. or is it WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS 4 EVAR!!!!

Yes, we should support the troops 4 EVER while they are out performing tasks assigned to them by the President. We should also prosecute the crap out of the minute few who are not honorable instead of labeling the whole. Kinda like I try and use Dem and Far-left libby as different in a lot of instances.

No, just those who think Homosexuality is a disease, and those who are homosexual are damnable by the state.

I thought it was more of a sexual preference thing? Sure, some think it is a disease just like others think religion is a disease. It's all perspective of the individual.

When was communism an exception to freedom of thought? Or socialism for that matter? How bout that Bill Ayers has since rejoined society as a regular guy. I guess Obama was rightfully characterised as "Pallin' around with terrorists," after all, Palin, who is married to a Secessionist, would know.

Communism and freedom of thought? It's a totalitarian system of Gov in which the Gov owns all and distributes according to their (the rulers) will for the "common good". Personal thought of the population means little to nothing. You are correct, Todd did register twice with the Alaskan Independence Party who is a party which wants to turn all federal lands in Alaska back over to Alaska. Straw man approach is to associate this as state secession.

Science isnt and never should be directed by the whims of non-scientists. Embryonic stem cells have shown their potential, but the lack of federal funding has severely hindered any progress. I guess we should just have given up on finding a polio vaccine in 1950 because of no evidence.

Where have embryonic stem cells shown potential? Can you cite a valid report because I have not found one yet. Colleges are performing embryonic stem cell research using the existing lines and was still receiving Fed funding.

Viruses evolve. Bacteria evolve. Humans evolve. There is simply is no way to test the theories Creationism/Intelligent design propose.

Proof of human evolution please. You know, never mind, we've been down that road in this forum and it goes nowhere and eventually hits the rules. You are correct in having no way to teach Creationism/ID and I don't advocate that.

Thats part of the cost of living in a country that espouses the freedom of religion. Mistakes have been made, but hell, if you are such an expert on Tax code that you have never made a mistake, then you can do my taxes anytime.

Yeah. Sux when the guy who helps write the tax code screws up his taxes. It's a minor thing that a number of Dems had this problem that had been outstanding for years and they all just happen to apply for jobs with this Administration. It's nothing, carry on. Hell, it's not like they were Republicans or anything...sheesh

When the economy is stagnant, and no one is spending on anything, then yes, its the governments job to come in and start spending. You cant fix the country on the cheap.

Can I start charging you a Matt tax just so I can buy things I can't afford? No? Can I simply have your employer, when you are out of school, send me some of your paycheck without your consent so I can spend it on other things? No? Then why can the Gov do it, because they say they can and the others deserve it more than you do?

Yes because Virginia Tech, Columbine, etc were all due to knives... Give me a break. There is no need for assault rifles. I really couldnt care less about guns, I just think that there should be increased screening on who should be able to buy them.

What about those who have them illegally? Hell, look at the UK, they are trying to pass anti-knife laws now. Maybe anti-spoon laws will be next. How about baseball bats? Rocks maybe?

There is a social responsibility for those who gain the most from the system to contribute the most to the system. The freedom to make 200 million, means you also should be required to pay more than the guy who makes 21,000.

And they do pay. The guy who makes 21k get's all his money back (usually more so) whereas the guy who makes 200 million pays 50%+ in taxes......at least the money he can't protect elsewhere but that's another story. Do you support taking all the money the guy making 200 mil a year gets and simply giving him 21k to live on so he is even with the other guy? If not, do you only take 95%, 90%, what?

Lobbyists are bad for both sides. They are a cancer that cant be easily excised.

I agree and it sure seems to be a large number within the current Administration.

Yes, because it was the Left that called the opposition, anti-american.

They just call their opposition extremists. Comes out about the same, no?

They were far from saints. They deserve the criticism they garner. Bush did alot of campaigning in 2008 did he? Even your own party thinks he was a failure.

History will tell who is or wasn't a failure. Reagan was viewed about the same way when he left office.

[heliochrome85]

Of course I am. Who loves ya babe?

LOL. You know i luv you too.

[audtatious]

Become a cardiac doctor and I'll give you my heart for keeps

[heliochrome85]

we shall see. im thinking kidneys currently, who knows what i end up doing.

[audtatious]

Brian wants you as a butt doctor