Yeah, I hear that about the apex seal, and I didn't realize that the rotary motor had a patent. I was under the impression that there were several types of rotor shapes available to build from.............
I guess not.
Skyline finally comes to America!!!!
Quote »Even Honda is running a minimum of 2 litres now.[/quote]
The Honda 'D' series motor are still under 2.0l. They are actually 1.7l at the moment. up from 1.5l&1.6l...
Quote »I know everyone loves the RB powered GT-R but just look at the Z car... I never hear anyone saying that they miss the 240 Z. Or the old Celica Supra?! just the 300Z and MKIV. I think that the new Skyline is a great step in the right direction. Its funny reading how import peps are so pesimistic (sp) about new things to come. Hell all the GM guys welcomed the 346ci 5.7L LS1. Sure there are the LT1/LT4 faithfuls but none ever completely shame the All aluminum V8. [/quote]
If you can't find people who think that the 240Z is the best Z car, you aren't looking hard enough. There alot of people who love the MKII and MKIII Supras. Go to Japan, and notice the most loved RX-7 is the FC3S not the FD. The most most loved GTR is the BNR32. **** there are people that would rather have a HR31 Skyline than an BNR34.
Quote »If anyone remembers the old 300 Z tt, Supra tt and RX7 tt were all under 280 hp per Japanese law limiting them to 275 hp. Then new 350 Z is what? 287hp, with out turbos? If you can make that kind of horse power w/ out forced induction your better off. Sure turbos are fun to play w/ and they make " cool phuuusteeerrr" noises between gears but Id rather not have to replace a major component to my engine every 60k miles or so.[/quote]
Firstly it is not a 'law' that Japanese cars must stay under 280HP. It is a gentelmans agrement between manufactuers. Which is broken all the time. Do you honostly think the GTR weighing in at 3400lbs can sprint a stock 0-60 in 4.9sec and run a 13.0 1/4 on 280HP? It makes more like 340HP stock. The Supra dyno between 320 and 330 RWHP stock, that means its making more like 340-360HP at the crank... As for breaking something every 60K... What are you talking about? I'd bet any Japanese turbo engine would outlast most if not all American made engines. The SR, RB, CA, FJ, VG all will last over 150K.
Quote »And for everyone going to the Wenkel Rotory engine,,, Besides the fact that Mazada owned the patten, but just like a turbo they only have a running life of 60-70k miles. then the Bendix seal would give out which is like blowing all the compression rings out at the same time in a conventional piston engine. Boils down to driveablility. And warrentablilty[/quote]
Mazda doesn't own the patent for the rotory engine. They own the rights to produce the rotory engine. Otherwise it would be called the Mazda rotory, and not the Wankel...Where do you get this information that a rotor motor only lasts 60K? An NA rotor motor will last forever. The main thing that kills a rotory engine apex seals is 'pinging', and overheating. The rotory will die if either happen. The pinging will only happen under boost conditions, and your turbos spike or fuel mixture leans out for whatever reason. Pinging is an uncontroled detonation of the fuel. The fuel is burned very violently and erratically. It is an explosion instead of a clean burn. The resulting shockwave from the 'ping' shatters the apexseal. Apex seals don't just give out at 60K. Alot of blown rotorys have blown side seals or coolant seals from overheating as well.
The Honda 'D' series motor are still under 2.0l. They are actually 1.7l at the moment. up from 1.5l&1.6l...
Quote »I know everyone loves the RB powered GT-R but just look at the Z car... I never hear anyone saying that they miss the 240 Z. Or the old Celica Supra?! just the 300Z and MKIV. I think that the new Skyline is a great step in the right direction. Its funny reading how import peps are so pesimistic (sp) about new things to come. Hell all the GM guys welcomed the 346ci 5.7L LS1. Sure there are the LT1/LT4 faithfuls but none ever completely shame the All aluminum V8. [/quote]
If you can't find people who think that the 240Z is the best Z car, you aren't looking hard enough. There alot of people who love the MKII and MKIII Supras. Go to Japan, and notice the most loved RX-7 is the FC3S not the FD. The most most loved GTR is the BNR32. **** there are people that would rather have a HR31 Skyline than an BNR34.
Quote »If anyone remembers the old 300 Z tt, Supra tt and RX7 tt were all under 280 hp per Japanese law limiting them to 275 hp. Then new 350 Z is what? 287hp, with out turbos? If you can make that kind of horse power w/ out forced induction your better off. Sure turbos are fun to play w/ and they make " cool phuuusteeerrr" noises between gears but Id rather not have to replace a major component to my engine every 60k miles or so.[/quote]
Firstly it is not a 'law' that Japanese cars must stay under 280HP. It is a gentelmans agrement between manufactuers. Which is broken all the time. Do you honostly think the GTR weighing in at 3400lbs can sprint a stock 0-60 in 4.9sec and run a 13.0 1/4 on 280HP? It makes more like 340HP stock. The Supra dyno between 320 and 330 RWHP stock, that means its making more like 340-360HP at the crank... As for breaking something every 60K... What are you talking about? I'd bet any Japanese turbo engine would outlast most if not all American made engines. The SR, RB, CA, FJ, VG all will last over 150K.
Quote »And for everyone going to the Wenkel Rotory engine,,, Besides the fact that Mazada owned the patten, but just like a turbo they only have a running life of 60-70k miles. then the Bendix seal would give out which is like blowing all the compression rings out at the same time in a conventional piston engine. Boils down to driveablility. And warrentablilty[/quote]
Mazda doesn't own the patent for the rotory engine. They own the rights to produce the rotory engine. Otherwise it would be called the Mazda rotory, and not the Wankel...Where do you get this information that a rotor motor only lasts 60K? An NA rotor motor will last forever. The main thing that kills a rotory engine apex seals is 'pinging', and overheating. The rotory will die if either happen. The pinging will only happen under boost conditions, and your turbos spike or fuel mixture leans out for whatever reason. Pinging is an uncontroled detonation of the fuel. The fuel is burned very violently and erratically. It is an explosion instead of a clean burn. The resulting shockwave from the 'ping' shatters the apexseal. Apex seals don't just give out at 60K. Alot of blown rotorys have blown side seals or coolant seals from overheating as well.
jeansguy wrote:Yeah, I hear that about the apex seal, and I didn't realize that the rotary motor had a patent. I was under the impression that there were several types of rotor shapes available to build from.............
I guess not.
There are many rotor motor types available. The rest are just not practical. The Wankel rotor motor is the only that is efficient or reliable enough to be used in a mass market automobile.
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EZcheese15
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Rotaries may last more than 60k, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they last forever. Even NA, they don't last as long as a properly maintained piston engine. My friend had an NA FC, and is notorious for proper maintnance, and it still went at 144k. I also have a friend with an FD, who is also extremely good when it comes to proper car care, and her motor went at like 120k. It was boosted, yeah, but it was bone stock. Both of them are rotor heads too, so they know a lot about cars.
I've heard of some long lasting 12A's, and a few 13B's, but not many. I guess we'll have to wait to see how well the Renesis does long-term. I'm hoping it lasts longer than any previous Mazda rotary. I think it should because of the periphial ports, but only time will tell.
I've heard of some long lasting 12A's, and a few 13B's, but not many. I guess we'll have to wait to see how well the Renesis does long-term. I'm hoping it lasts longer than any previous Mazda rotary. I think it should because of the periphial ports, but only time will tell.
J-Spec Tuner wrote:-I know this because I have never once heard of someone braking a crank before a rod, piston, headgasket or any of the other 300 parts in a motor. And the fact that all of BMW's motors are naturally aspirated would prove that a switch from inline sixes to V8's would most definatly not be related to stresses on the crank.
-cadillac had a V16 back in the 30's and again just recently. A w16 is a v16 with staggard piston rows (still one crank with 16 rods hanging off of it).
-Inline 6 engines are harmonically balanced, and incredibly smooth, much more-so than a V-6 motor.
But how do you know?? thats what i want to know, Do You Have proof??? Do you personally know guys with V12's and V16's???or have you "heard" or have you read something legitment???Im not trying to like dis-credit you or anything but there's alotta guys that says stuff and other people read it and say well thats true,And about the "Harmonically Balanced" what exactly is that???Where did you come up with that from???
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Onizuka
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"What about vertical / transverse forces? like 3-cylinder engines, the vertical and transverse forces generated by individual cylinders, no matter first order or second order, are completely balanced by one another. The resultant vibration is nearly zero, thus inline-6 is virtually a perfect configuration.
Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6, such as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s various models"
The basic concept is that the natural balance a inline 6 has elmintates the need for balance shafts and added complexity of Vee engines.
Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6, such as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s various models"
The basic concept is that the natural balance a inline 6 has elmintates the need for balance shafts and added complexity of Vee engines.
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yellaspecV
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GTR-33 wrote:The Honda 'D' series motor are still under 2.0l. They are actually 1.7l at the moment. up from 1.5l&1.6l...
If you can't find people who think that the 240Z is the best Z car, you aren't looking hard enough. There alot of people who love the MKII and MKIII Supras. Go to Japan, and notice the most loved RX-7 is the FC3S not the FD. The most most loved GTR is the BNR32. **** there are people that would rather have a HR31 Skyline than an BNR34.
Firstly it is not a 'law' that Japanese cars must stay under 280HP. It is a gentelmans agrement between manufactuers. Which is broken all the time. Do you honostly think the GTR weighing in at 3400lbs can sprint a stock 0-60 in 4.9sec and run a 13.0 1/4 on 280HP? It makes more like 340HP stock. The Supra dyno between 320 and 330 RWHP stock, that means its making more like 340-360HP at the crank... As for breaking something every 60K... What are you talking about? I'd bet any Japanese turbo engine would outlast most if not all American made engines. The SR, RB, CA, FJ, VG all will last over 150K.
Mazda doesn't own the patent for the rotory engine. They own the rights to produce the rotory engine. Otherwise it would be called the Mazda rotory, and not the Wankel...Where do you get this information that a rotor motor only lasts 60K? An NA rotor motor will last forever. The main thing that kills a rotory engine apex seals is 'pinging', and overheating. The rotory will die if either happen. The pinging will only happen under boost conditions, and your turbos spike or fuel mixture leans out for whatever reason. Pinging is an uncontroled detonation of the fuel. The fuel is burned very violently and erratically. It is an explosion instead of a clean burn. The resulting shockwave from the 'ping' shatters the apexseal. Apex seals don't just give out at 60K. Alot of blown rotorys have blown side seals or coolant seals from overheating as well.
WOW pick every thing I had to say apart why dont you...
Now a reply:
I know A L O T of Z car enthuthests and none could care a cent for the 240Z.
Im not much of a Honda fan so Im sorry to miss quote the size of the engines but you still even proved me right w/ the D series motors up to 1.7 from 1.5 and 1.6 respectively.
And it IS a government regulation (at least at one time, Im not up to date daily on Japanese government affairs) that cars must keep within a 275hp limit.. Now it is well known that manufactures fib on HP figures.. They have for years and still do here and abroud (sp).
Mazda does/did own the patten on the Wenkel rotory engine. It is known as the Wenkel Rotory from its German designer Dr Wenkel (his first name escapes me at the moment) but the ex-chief engineer of Mazda (which is pronounced Ma-zu-da in Japan) was impressed w/ the rotory and praised Dr Wenkel and bought the rights (i.e. patten) to manufacture it.
Your comment about Jap turbo engines out lasting Americans is most definitely opinionated. Now is diesels excluded from this? Because GM gives a 300,000 warrenty on their HD fleet diesel drivetrain they feel so confiedent in them. In anycase, American cars that come with turbos you can count on like one hand.
Lastly, I am a certified technician. I know how an engine works and what causes preignition, or what you call pinging or knock. Any engine can last a long time... Ive seen Saturn 1.9L, which have to be the loosest engine in the world, last upwords of 325,000mi. I dont know about RB's but SR's are great engines but require emense maintainance, the oil tubes that run across the cames gum up very easily and wipe out the came shafts.
I know all this information because Ive worked for different manufactures and in the aftermarket for over 10 yrs now. Plus I read and absorb all the information I can, compare it and seperate fact from speculation.
And about a GT-R doing 13.0, what model are you refering to? Cuz Rex's R33 only went mid 14's when he got it here? Again keep in mind that in Japan they have no emissions and run 110 octane sulfer free gas.
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EZcheese15
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First of all, it's Wankel, not Wenkel.
"Dr. Wankel" 's first name is Felix.
And Rex's R33 ran a 13.2 when he first got it.
Heck, my car run's mid 14's and I can tell you Rex's car is significantly faster just from my butt dyno.
Oh yeah, and the 280 PS cap on power in Japan *is* just a gentelmen's agreement, and no law ever existed.
"Dr. Wankel" 's first name is Felix.
And Rex's R33 ran a 13.2 when he first got it.
Heck, my car run's mid 14's and I can tell you Rex's car is significantly faster just from my butt dyno.
Oh yeah, and the 280 PS cap on power in Japan *is* just a gentelmen's agreement, and no law ever existed.
yellaspecV wrote:WOW pick every thing I had to say apart why dont you...
Now a reply:
I know A L O T of Z car enthuthests and none could care a cent for the 240Z.
Every Z car enthuthest must be under the age of 20-22
yellaspecV wrote:And it IS a government regulation (at least at one time, Im not up to date daily on Japanese government affairs) that cars must keep within a 275hp limit.. Now it is well known that manufactures fib on HP figures.. They have for years and still do here and abroud (sp).
It was never a law and never will be a law. Go learn something...
yellaspecV wrote:Mazda does/did own the patten on the Wenkel rotory engine. It is known as the Wenkel Rotory from its German designer Dr Wenkel (his first name escapes me at the moment) but the ex-chief engineer of Mazda (which is pronounced Ma-zu-da in Japan) was impressed w/ the rotory and praised Dr Wenkel and bought the rights (i.e. patten) to manufacture it.
Owning the rights and owning the PATENT are not the same. Mazda ows the RIGHTS to produce the Wankel rotory for automotive use worldwide. There are other manufatuers that own the rights to use the Wankel rotory in other applications, such small engine airplane manufactuers. Such as Curtis-Wright an american company that bought exclusive rights to produce the engine in the US for aircraft use in 1958. CW produced the RC1 1920, the largest rotary ever produced and it made some 800HP.Even GM has rights to porduce a rotary engine...
Umm no... It was Japanese turbo engines lasting longer than ANY american made engine. I like your GM warranty claim on the 6.6l Duramax, but its 5 years/100K and then you may even have a deductable after 3/36K...yellaspecV wrote:Your comment about Jap turbo engines out lasting Americans is most definitely opinionated. Now is diesels excluded from this? Because GM gives a 300,000 warrenty on their HD fleet diesel drivetrain they feel so confiedent in them. In anycase, American cars that come with turbos you can count on like one hand.
yellaspecV wrote:Lastly, I am a certified technician. I know how an engine works and what causes preignition, or what you call pinging or knock. Any engine can last a long time... Ive seen Saturn 1.9L, which have to be the loosest engine in the world, last upwords of 325,000mi. I dont know about RB's but SR's are great engines but require emense maintainance, the oil tubes that run across the cames gum up very easily and wipe out the came shafts.
I am a certified Mitsubishi tech. SR20s do require VERY emense maintainence... Oil changes... SR oil feed tubes do not gum easily. What kills an SR top end is oil starvation from lack of pressure. The RB is an even better engine than the SR. It's a CAM not a CAME. I see plenty of turbo cars every day, mostly Mitsu 4G63, 6G72, and Toyota 3SGTE, 2JZGTE, 7MGTE. There some 4G63s and 3SGTEsthat come in with 250K on the clock running strong.
yellaspecV wrote:I know all this information because Ive worked for different manufactures and in the aftermarket for over 10 yrs now. Plus I read and absorb all the information I can, compare it and seperate fact from speculation.
And about a GT-R doing 13.0, what model are you refering to? Cuz Rex's R33 only went mid 14's when he got it here? Again keep in mind that in Japan they have no emissions and run 110 octane sulfer free gas.
You need to think about what you know, and what you think you know....
quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by J-Spec Tuner -I know this because I have never once heard of someone braking a crank before a rod, piston, headgasket or any of the other 300 parts in a motor. And the fact that all of BMW's motors are naturally aspirated would prove that a switch from inline sixes to V8's would most definatly not be related to stresses on the crank.
-cadillac had a V16 back in the 30's and again just recently. A w16 is a v16 with staggard piston rows (still one crank with 16 rods hanging off of it).
-Inline 6 engines are harmonically balanced, and incredibly smooth, much more-so than a V-6 motor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But how do you know?? thats what i want to know, Do You Have proof??? Do you personally know guys with V12's and V16's???or have you "heard" or have you read something legitment???Im not trying to like dis-credit you or anything but there's alotta guys that says stuff and other people read it and say well thats true,And about the "Harmonically Balanced" what exactly is that???Where did you come up with that from???
-cadillac had a V16 back in the 30's and again just recently. A w16 is a v16 with staggard piston rows (still one crank with 16 rods hanging off of it).
-Inline 6 engines are harmonically balanced, and incredibly smooth, much more-so than a V-6 motor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But how do you know?? thats what i want to know, Do You Have proof??? Do you personally know guys with V12's and V16's???or have you "heard" or have you read something legitment???Im not trying to like dis-credit you or anything but there's alotta guys that says stuff and other people read it and say well thats true,And about the "Harmonically Balanced" what exactly is that???Where did you come up with that from???
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Onizuka
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J-Spec Tuner wrote:"What about vertical / transverse forces? like 3-cylinder engines, the vertical and transverse forces generated by individual cylinders, no matter first order or second order, are completely balanced by one another. The resultant vibration is nearly zero, thus inline-6 is virtually a perfect configuration.
Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6, such as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s various models"
The basic concept is that the natural balance a inline 6 has elmintates the need for balance shafts and added complexity of Vee engines.
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krazy skwerel
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Mr1der
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krazy skwerel wrote:Let me see how many I can name. Dodge: Acclaim, caravan, daytona, omniFord: Mustang, ProbeGM: Cavilier, sunbird, Gran national, Regal T-type
Thats all I can think of right now, not including trucks.
Dodge: those mentioned as well as the Rampage, SRT4 (already said) Shadow, Talon and Eclipse, yeah that's right, DSM straight outta Ohio I think...Love child of Chrysler and Mitsubishi
Ford: Ranger, TBird, Capri, they have turbo European Escorts too
GM: Typhoon, Syclone, Corvair (oldschool, first mass turbo car also)
somebody's got a lot of fingers:D
The probe may be a Mazda and technically made by Mazda, but Ford owns Mazda, so really all Mazdas are Ford...
All Chrysler turbocharged motors are Mitsubishi units or highly based off of them, including the 4G63, 4G64, and the 6G72. DOHC NA Chrysler 3.0 V6 are based off of the NA 6G72 including the one in the 300M and the Prowler.
The Ford turbocharged motors are Mazda units.
DSM were mostly built in Japan, and had final assembly here in the US.
The Ford turbocharged motors are Mazda units.
DSM were mostly built in Japan, and had final assembly here in the US.
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krazy skwerel
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GTR-33 wrote:All Chrysler turbocharged motors are Mitsubishi units or highly based off of them, including the 4G63, 4G64, and the 6G72. DOHC NA Chrysler 3.0 V6 are based off of the NA 6G72 including the one in the 300M and the Prowler.
The Ford turbocharged motors are Mazda units.
DSM were mostly built in Japan, and had final assembly here in the US.
No matter who built them the fact remains that the vehicles are sold as american cars. So therefore the original statment was incorrect. I am not trying to attack yella or you. Just when making challenges people should be more specific. Also look at it this way, even though they did not build the engines the american companies still brought them over and sold them.
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krazy skwerel
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If an american company owns part of it then what does it really matter? Lets say with mazda. Ford sells the probe which is simply a mx6 or 626. Ford owns a good part of mazda so their money helps fund mazda products. Then ford owns part of that design. Besides not all japanese cars are built in japan. If I get a Titan and it says manufactured in Smyrna Tennessee does that make the titan an american truck? The bottom line is if it was sold as a ford or a dodge or a chevy the it is a domestic car and would count torward a domestic turbo car.
krazy skwerel wrote:If an american company owns part of it then what does it really matter? Lets say with mazda. Ford sells the probe which is simply a mx6 or 626. Ford owns a good part of mazda so their money helps fund mazda products. Then ford owns part of that design. Besides not all japanese cars are built in japan. If I get a Titan and it says manufactured in Smyrna Tennessee does that make the titan an american truck? The bottom line is if it was sold as a ford or a dodge or a chevy the it is a domestic car and would count torward a domestic turbo car.
First of all the topic to all the 'heat' was engines, and not whole cars. Toyota trucks are still manufactured in Japan, the US bound ones receive final assembly here in the US. Look at the parts content on the sticker. 80%-100% Japan. It doesn't matter who owns what. Toyota provides GM with a couple cars at the moment, including the Pontiac Vibe and the Chevy Prism. Are they American cars? No. They are just Toyotas with different lights and bumpers. The Vibe is really a Matrix and the Prism is really a Corolla. They are about as American as baklava. One of Chevy only reliable cars from the 80s was the Nova. Guess what, Toyota built it. Just because a Probe has different bumpers and lights doesn't mean it isn't still a Mazda. Where is Mazda based? The Ford Festiva is a Mazda 121. Toyota sells the Cavalier in Japan, does that make it a Japanese car? No. If I sell a Tommy Kaira ZZII here in the US as a 2004 Ferrari GTO, is it an Itallian car?
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krazy skwerel
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GTR-33 wrote:It doesn't matter who owns what.
It does matter. If a company contributes then they are indeed a part of the car. They wouldn't allow funds to build a car if they didn't like what they saw. I was never trying to argue that the engines weren't Japanese in design. I do realise all of those cars are rebadged japanese cars. I never argued different. In fact I feel you drove my point home on the where a vehichle was made issue. My viewpoint is that if it is badged as a domestic then it counts torward a dommestic car count. Hell cars are so mixed and matched now days it really is all moot point. I don't know if you can see what I am saying. I really need to be in person to make it sensible. Even then I'm not so sure I could make it sound right.
I understand what you are saying, and on paper an Eagle Talon is a domestic. You and I know, however, it is not. On paper, a Toyota Cavalier is a Japanese car. We all know a Cavalier is an American car no matter what a piece of paper says. Ford may own Mazda, but Mazda is still an independant company. IE, they still make alot of their own decisions. Ford is not 100% in direct control over Mazda. Just because Ford owns them, that doen't make them an American company. It makes them a majority owned by Ford, Japanese company. It's as simple as this. If a Japanese company designed it, and built it. It's Japanese. If an American company designed it, and built it. It's American. The new Pontiac GTO is a re-done Holden Monaro. Just because GM owns Holden, doesn't mean that an Australian designed and built car is American simply because it is sold as a Pontiac. Thats right, the new GTO is completely built in the land down under. Nissan is now owned mostly by Renault (Renault has a 51% vote), are they French or Japanese cars now?
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krazy skwerel
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I know what your saying man. I will end this, just wanted to have a good discussion on it. Last bit the dodge turbo's the 2.2 arent mitsu products. The 2.5 has a mitsubishi turbo. The old cavalier and sunbird turbo's I have no idea if they have toyota or gm motors, or some other random motor. Good discussion man.
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