This is probably the best place for this topic, don't shoot it down because of the title. I posted it in here to be discussed maturely.

Last night I had a dream that I was still with an old girlfriend, except married and had a child. We had a home and often we could hear a neighbor really, really beating on their child. In the past we had called the police and it helped, but in this instance we were going for a walk and now this guy was out in front of his house kicking her around and being quite violent. I had enough, broke free of my wife's hand, ran over and proceeded to beat the living daylights out of this guy. I ended up killing him by...well as much of an accident as watching a child be beat can warrant. The police came and handcuffed me but didn't stick me in the car.

I think I woke up because my brain didn't know what would happen next and now I'm very curious. What do you guys think the penalty (if any) would be for that situation?

I hate to say it, but it would really depend on your state's law. In Indiana if you had a reasonable fear for the woman's life (being beaten to death by the husband), since you had ever right to be in public and be out on a walk, the prosecutor (as long as there were not any extra circumstances) would rule it self defense, since you were coming to the aid of the woman.

Now in Fantasy land where this alleged act took place, I am not certified to practice law in this jurisdiction, so I would have to defer to the dream police.

I'm no legal eagle by any stretch, but I believe in most cases, there is a fine line for self defense. If it could be proven that you transitioned from defender to attacker, you would be in hot water. Especially if it's bludgeoning (fists, bat, pipe, etc). My theory is that someone can be beaten to a point of being incapacitated (thereby no longer posing a viable threat) well before their life is gone. At that point, the defender becomes the attacker and vice versa. Your intent, at this point, can easily be called into question (protecting the child, or just hurting the jerk). This would be different, for instance, in the case of gun use. One shot could both incapacitate and kill. So it would be harder to prove that it was your intent to kill the guy. Emptying an entire clip into him, reloading, and repeating on the other hand...

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Defense of others is usually sufficient grounds allow intervention. If the force used (fists) were reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm to the child, then you would probably get a pass. However, if you continued beating the jerk after the attack had stopped, then you might face charges. I think the rule is that the force must be reasonable and only applied to the extent necessary to prevent harm to a third party. A woman might get away with shooting as she could not have fought with the dude, but you probably wouldn't. (None of this is legal advice as it is only my opinion)

However, in the real world, I'd call 911 then beat the crap out of the jerk.

Technically speaking, the law is different from state to state and also prosecutors are different from jurisdiction to jursidition. Prosecutor will look each case with a different perspective. The local prosecutors in our area are typically pretty good at siding with the defender in these types of cases. Again, with out any extraneous circumstances. Sil40_Mayhem brings up some very good points.

If you told the police, "I beat the **** out of that scum bag because he pissed me off by beating his child," that might get you into trouble. But it is hard for a prosecutor or lawyer to prove your intent or what was unreasonable in a situtation like this.

I would think that if you came to the aid of the child, expressed a reasonable fear for the child's life and the person wound up dead as a result of you beating them up. I would find it hard that a prosecutor would charge you. Again, with out any extraneous circumstances. Like you beating the guy while he was already subdued or something...

In Cali you would get the death penalty

In GA you would get a medal

In some other states you may get Voluntary Manslaughter charges

Being a proponent of ones right to bear arms and a member of the IDPA (International defensive pistol association) I've had to ask myself this very question on many occasions. Everyday that I choose to carry a firearm, I must be fully prepared to use deadly force and face scrutiny for my actions. This is the responsibility of carrying a firearm and I believe the benefits far outweight the consequenses.

Laws differ from state to state, but many states have what is called a duty to retreat law meaing that if you or anyone in your presence is being immediately threatened, you must first take action to retreat the scene and contact authorities immediately. On the opposite end of that spectrum, some states have good samaritan laws that require you to intervene in a crisis situation and assist. This does not necessarily mean that you must put your life in danger to save someones life, but if you knowingly neglect to assist a person in dire need, you could potentially be found liable.

Many factors also must take place before homicide is justifiable. Many law enforcement agencies have the "Deadly force triangle" as a departmental policy. The triangle consists of 3 different attributes that a person must show are present before proceeding with deadly force.

1)Ability- Does the purpotrator appear to have the physical and mental capacity to commit a deadly act upon yourself or another individual?2)Opportunity- Does the purpotrator have an opportunity/deadly weapon that may cause death to yourself or another person?3)Jeapordy- Is your life or someone elses life in IMMEDIATE Danger? I've heard of a 27 ft. rule... if the average person was running at you with a knife, it would take them 27 feet to reach you in the same time that it would take for you to unholster your weapon, disengage the safety, aim and fire accurately to protect yourself. That's pretty freakin far! Not many criminals give you a 27 foot warning of when they are going to attack!

Being able to process all of these factors before deciding to pull the trigger seems impossible, but the law requires that you satisfy all of these qualifications before using deadly force.

Reference: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-20564013.html

I recall in a self defense class that a similar scenario to your dream was brought up. The situation involved an individual walking through a park at night and happened upon a man forceably raping a woman at knife point. The woman was obviously distressed but was not screaming for help. The concerned citizen (not knowing if the woman was so scared that she couldn't even scream) drew his firearm and yelled at the assailant to get on the ground. The perpetrator did not respond to his commands and the man fired his weapon at the purported rapist to cease the act and save the woman. The bullet struck the man in the stomach and killed him within seconds. The woman immediately screamed at the citizen that it was her husband and they were just having rough sex in the park! As memory serves me, the citizen was not charged with any criminal act, but did face a hefty wrongful death lawsuit by the wife. Moral of the story... Exhaust all of your options before proceeding with deadly force!

In your particular dream, the child may have been in danger, but not in immediate life threatening danger. You would certainly be exonerated for striking the man to stop his heineous act, but once you beat him to the point that he is no longer a threat to you or the child, then your job is done in the law's eyes. I think you would be pretty safe in this situation as it is difficult to prove that your fists are deadly weapons (unless you are highly trained in martial arts) but that's another lesson...

Sorry to write a book about this, but it is a very important issue in my life as I have been personally affected by a senseless murder of a loved one by an intruder. I've seen this first hand and would not wish my pain and suffering upon anyone.

Be safe out there!Dave

Dave, that was well said. I seem to remember a rule about escalating the situation as it applied to self defense. I think stopping a felony is a different story though.

I think the best and safest advice would be to call 911 whenever there was a problem, then, at worst, you're no more than a witness.

While true, I have seen cases where "witnesses" are charged because they didn't do anything. In his example, if he simply called 911 and walked away and the girl dies before the cops get there then hir/her intervention could have stopped it.

Catch-22 in some cases

I'm wondering what repressed feeling you have for your ex and if there was someone who intervened on your relationship that caused it to fail.



I still wanna become a psychiatrist...mathmetician...and multimedia designer...

Not sure WTF you are talking about????

audtatious wrote:Not sure WTF you are talking about????

He is psychoanalyzing Fraps dream. Hell even I understood what he was talking about.

I was thinking that we need to invite WPF660...whatever the hell his name is on this thread... he's a psychiatrist and would probably have a field day with analyzing this one,,,

Cold_Zero wrote:
He is psychoanalyzing Fraps dream. Hell even I understood what he was talking about.

He replied to me so I was wondering....

Now if he starts psychoanalyzing you? We are all in trouble!

There's not enough time in the day

Aw, we're all effed if I start posting my dreams in threads. New section for the psych fellow to analyze maybe?

Anyway, I greatly appreciate the responses and I thin the dream stemmed from a song I heard just before bed http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9S_gxUvhbY

But it hit me hard, gave me goose bumps, and honestly, I certainly wouldn't want to get locked up because of a decision I made defending what I'd hope ANYONE would do for my own child and myself when not present. I'm guessing thats why I was worried and I had the dream, but in all actuality....I'd be surprised if I didn't ruin that person within an inch of their life hitting an innocent young person. Granted, I wouldn't discharge a firearm over it, but I would certainly defend those who can't defend themselves.

It's not as uncommon as you think. I was sitting in a McDonalds one day when a mother was yelling and every so often smacking her 3 yr old son. It was every thing I could do to sit there and not react to it. She never quite crossed the line, but I was ready to ask the management to call the cops at lease three times. (before cell phones were so popular)

It is a tough situation to be in.

Sometimes kids need to be smacked

rn79870 wrote:It's not as uncommon as you think. I was sitting in a McDonalds one day when a mother was yelling and every so often smacking her 3 yr old son. It was every thing I could do to sit there and not react to it. She never quite crossed the line, but I was ready to ask the management to call the cops at lease three times. (before cell phones were so popular)

It is a tough situation to be in.

There is always a fine line when disciplining your child. I try and not approach discipline (corporal) until I have calmed down. But if another parent did that to me, I would be a bit upset. Unless you are abusing a child... you really need to let the parent(s) do their job. The operative word is abuse.

audtatious wrote:
He replied to me so I was wondering....

It's called pure and utter laziness. I typically read through the whole thread and just reply to the last poster.

Correct?...NoEffective?...Usually

Cold_Zero wrote:
There is always a fine line when disciplining your child. I try and not approach discipline (corporal) until I have calmed down. But if another parent did that to me, I would be a bit upset. Unless you are abusing a child... you really need to let the parent(s) do their job. The operative word is abuse.

I think smacking a three year old in the head is never appropriate. In fact, I'm not sure how far the law allows one to go with discipline anymore.

A swat or two to the butt I can agree with, nothing above the belt though.

We need more nuns with wood rulers

I'll take my chances with the legal system.

There's a backlash in this country against frivolous lawsuits and absurd litigation that I'd trust to protect my interests.

Bottom line, the perp would get harmed, and I'll be damned if I'm going into a scrap with just fists (this ain't the movies, kids - hitting someone in the head with your fists hurts like hell).