siping tires?
siping tires?
hey guys, when i got new tires this week i also got them siped (you have 1000s of little cuts in you tires for more gripping edges), now, this is the first time i heard of this, have you gues ever heard of this? did you have it done, is it good to get it done?
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cowboyrps13
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i work at discount tire, we do that all the time, it helps with the tread life of the tire, something with better heat dissapating abilities and it supposedly helps traction, i dont remember id have to ask my manager or somethin, but it is a good thing. i mean, michelins usually come with it done from the factory. so it must be doing something right:eek: oo and i could be completely wrong with this, its late im tired, but i think its right:oface
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sen-pai
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i work at discount tire company and yes we do sipe tires. i have them done on my accord just because that is my daily commuter. siping pretty much is supposed to give you more traction in the rain because it is giving the tire more exit spots for water. and also it will help get about 10,000 more miles out of the tires
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cowboyrps13
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Grant@tirerack
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Tires are designed with sipes in the tread design for two reasons, they increase traction by providing more 'biting egdes' to the tread blocks and they help with wet traction by using the capilary action to draw water away from the contact patch. Sipes that are designed into the tread are a good thing. With that said,
Siping tires after the fact on a machine is a bad idea!
It's a great idea if you want to charge the customer extra for a service that will decrease tread life. It's also a great way to sell more tires. When tires are designed, the mold has narrow metal blades that form the sipes when the tire is removed. Siping machines use a razor sharp blade to slice across the tread at intervals. These cuts leave a cut that has it's edges in contact with each other. There is no gap like with a designed sipe. I repeat, there is NO GAP, only a cut. As the tire flexes, those edges inside the cut will rub on each other and generate more heat in the tread (not cool the tread as they claim). This will decrease tread life. Because there is no gap, it does not add 'escape routes' for water under the contact patch. The only area of the tire where these slits open is when the tread leaves the contact patch on the ground as it rotates. If you look at a tire that has been 'safety siped' you will see that the process cuts up the tread blocks into smaller tread blocks. On many tread designs, this will make very small blocks on the leading edges of the larger pattern. In time, these small flaps of tread will start to wear and sometimes tear because they are not part of a larger, more stable block. Tire makers design tire treads to function in a variety of conditions. Cutting up the tread into smaller blocks destroys the integrity of the tread blocks and will increase squirm in the tread design. I have been to a few shops doing this and have asked what impact this has on the tire warranty and have yet to get a straight answer. Shops doing this will point to a study where siping tires on airport tow vehicles increased traction in wet and other adverse conditions. That's likely true since airport tow vehicle tires do not have any sipes on them to begin with! The stability and handling on a siped tire is greatly diminished as well. If you look at a dedicated Winter snow/ice tire you will see many more sipes in the tread design for increased traction. This is also the same reason snow/ice tires wear like butter in warm conditions and tend to have more squirm. All that flexing will increase the heat in the tread compound. That's why they shave treads on competition tires. You don't increase the number of sipes to "cool down the tire". There is a limit to the amount of siping you can use and maintain tread life and stability. Slaping a tire on a machine and hacking the tread to pieces is not doing the customer a service. The bottom line is this, shops do this because it's an extra $8-10 they can charge the customer for 10-15 minutes of labor per tire. They push this as a way for the installers to make more income off the sale. It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$ It also makes the tires wear out quicker and makes for a faster return customer.
I might also point out that Consumer Reports covered this in detail in the last tire test report last year and came out against the practice for these very reasons.
Siping tires after the fact on a machine is a bad idea!
It's a great idea if you want to charge the customer extra for a service that will decrease tread life. It's also a great way to sell more tires. When tires are designed, the mold has narrow metal blades that form the sipes when the tire is removed. Siping machines use a razor sharp blade to slice across the tread at intervals. These cuts leave a cut that has it's edges in contact with each other. There is no gap like with a designed sipe. I repeat, there is NO GAP, only a cut. As the tire flexes, those edges inside the cut will rub on each other and generate more heat in the tread (not cool the tread as they claim). This will decrease tread life. Because there is no gap, it does not add 'escape routes' for water under the contact patch. The only area of the tire where these slits open is when the tread leaves the contact patch on the ground as it rotates. If you look at a tire that has been 'safety siped' you will see that the process cuts up the tread blocks into smaller tread blocks. On many tread designs, this will make very small blocks on the leading edges of the larger pattern. In time, these small flaps of tread will start to wear and sometimes tear because they are not part of a larger, more stable block. Tire makers design tire treads to function in a variety of conditions. Cutting up the tread into smaller blocks destroys the integrity of the tread blocks and will increase squirm in the tread design. I have been to a few shops doing this and have asked what impact this has on the tire warranty and have yet to get a straight answer. Shops doing this will point to a study where siping tires on airport tow vehicles increased traction in wet and other adverse conditions. That's likely true since airport tow vehicle tires do not have any sipes on them to begin with! The stability and handling on a siped tire is greatly diminished as well. If you look at a dedicated Winter snow/ice tire you will see many more sipes in the tread design for increased traction. This is also the same reason snow/ice tires wear like butter in warm conditions and tend to have more squirm. All that flexing will increase the heat in the tread compound. That's why they shave treads on competition tires. You don't increase the number of sipes to "cool down the tire". There is a limit to the amount of siping you can use and maintain tread life and stability. Slaping a tire on a machine and hacking the tread to pieces is not doing the customer a service. The bottom line is this, shops do this because it's an extra $8-10 they can charge the customer for 10-15 minutes of labor per tire. They push this as a way for the installers to make more income off the sale. It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$ It also makes the tires wear out quicker and makes for a faster return customer.
I might also point out that Consumer Reports covered this in detail in the last tire test report last year and came out against the practice for these very reasons.
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whiterps13
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Grant@tirerack
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Truth be told, my first experience with this was when I was visiting my mother a few years back. She wanted me to look at the tires on her car because she thought there was something wrong with them. I sold her some tires a few months earlier and she had them installed at a local shop near her home and they SAF-TEE siped her tires. The shop charged her an additional $38.00 and within three months, the treads were showing signs of chunking where the leading and trailing edges of the tread blocks were tearing off. The car sounded like a tank and felt like you were driving on oatmeal. They had good wet braking but felt like they were all over the road in the dry and loud as heck. I visited the tire shop in question and listened to the sales pitch and examined the sample tread they had sitting on the counter. They even let me look at the machine and explained the process. What a joke. It made me want to take the tires back and throw them through the front window of the store..... 
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sen-pai
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i have my accord tires siped every time and i always exceed the product tire life. at my work we charge i thinkg 5 dollars 4 all of them which isn't nothing, and sometimes we do it for free, for our store i personally don't think its about making money, but in my opinion and personal experience and other friends it helps dramatically and doesn't kill the tire life. the only tire that shouldn't be siped is a yokohama yk420 that was proven to shorten the life
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sen-pai
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you ever stop to think maybe it has allignment issues, tire are out of round? those also would play a role in what u are describing. i'm not trying to argue but i have been with this company for 2 years and we (at my store) have never had complaints we have returning customers that continue to get siped tires.... so they must like them
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Grant@tirerack
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Alignment or out of round does not cause tread blocks to tear or squirm. Hacking up the tread blocks at 1/2" intervals that have no relation to the function of the tread design that was engineered by a tire engineer does. A quick call this morning to three of the major tire makers confirmed that while this practice does not void the treadwear warranty; any tread block damage, handling, ride, noise issues would not be covered under a standard material/manufacturing defect warranty on siped tires.
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Mayhem_J30
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"Alignment or out of round does not cause tread blocks to tear or squirm. Hacking up the tread blocks at 1/2" intervals that have no relation to the function of the tread design that was engineered by a tire engineer does."
damn right.
grant Imma steal that peice of info about siping tires for the new seperate tire and wheel FAQ, I'll give you credit, sokay?-chet
damn right.
grant Imma steal that peice of info about siping tires for the new seperate tire and wheel FAQ, I'll give you credit, sokay?-chet
Odd to see this subject come up. I was thinking about asking the people here about siping.
My company pushes siping quite heavily. I agree with everything Grant & Chet have said. It's about profit and here's why:
After initial setup of the machine for each different size tire, time averages out so I can sipe a tire in 1-1.5mins(depending on size..)
1.5mins per tire, set of four tires = 6mins
6mins per set of four, means 10 sets siped per hour.
10sets of four tires per hour, at $10 per tire = $400 per hour.
There's good money in siping.
At that rate, siping sales can cover quite a few holes in a store's monthly budget. It isn't right, and it pisses me off.
My company pushes siping quite heavily. I agree with everything Grant & Chet have said. It's about profit and here's why:
After initial setup of the machine for each different size tire, time averages out so I can sipe a tire in 1-1.5mins(depending on size..)
1.5mins per tire, set of four tires = 6mins
6mins per set of four, means 10 sets siped per hour.
10sets of four tires per hour, at $10 per tire = $400 per hour.
There's good money in siping.
At that rate, siping sales can cover quite a few holes in a store's monthly budget. It isn't right, and it pisses me off.
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C-Kwik
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Al I have to say is that if you want a long life tire with siping, you can buy them that way. Tire manufacturers put a lot of testing to achieve a balance between wear, grip, wet traction and noise. If the solution was this simple and it didn't compromise any of these factors, don't you think the manufacturers would already be doing it. A little common sense goes a long way...
I think there are too many unknowns, as well as some very catchy marketing buzz-words to lure customers to this service.
It's easy to show a customer a cut out piece of tread, have them run their finger across the tread blocks and be able to feel the extra edges made by siping the tire.
After doing that, all you have to do is say "those biting edges will grip the road better under acceleration and braking. Better braking means more safety for you and your kids."
What is a mother of three kids to say? No, forget it, I don't want to increase safety in my minivan? She'll buy it, if a competent salesperson can pitch it well enough. Still doesn't make it right.
It's almost a scare tactic.
I've had customers that swear by it, and some that swear about it.
It's easy to show a customer a cut out piece of tread, have them run their finger across the tread blocks and be able to feel the extra edges made by siping the tire.
After doing that, all you have to do is say "those biting edges will grip the road better under acceleration and braking. Better braking means more safety for you and your kids."
What is a mother of three kids to say? No, forget it, I don't want to increase safety in my minivan? She'll buy it, if a competent salesperson can pitch it well enough. Still doesn't make it right.
It's almost a scare tactic.
I've had customers that swear by it, and some that swear about it.
I wouldn't say you got ripped off.
-Some customers love it, and ask for it even before I have a chance to pitch it.
-Some customers ask why the tire wasn't already siped, and give me a funny look like "why didn't they come that way if it's so great?"
Instrumented testing would help here. Thing is, I don't know of anybody doing instrumented testing on identical cars with identical tires, one set siped, one set not siped. Then there'd also need to be a long-term testing to match/compare wear rates. Then, that'd have to be done time & again, to average out in town vs. highway miles and other variables such as driving routes and personal driving habits.. because all these variables play a role in tire life.
It would take an incredible amount of corporate dollars to do enough testing to get documented proof that siping a tire is ripping people off.
See how muddy the waters can get? It's much easier for a salesman to say "it'll grip better and run cooler and last longer" and you buy it. Because, what else besides the seat of your pants can tell you otherwise? If you don't think you got ripped off, and you're pleased with the grip and handling, then I wouldn't say you got ripped off.
-Some customers love it, and ask for it even before I have a chance to pitch it.
-Some customers ask why the tire wasn't already siped, and give me a funny look like "why didn't they come that way if it's so great?"
Instrumented testing would help here. Thing is, I don't know of anybody doing instrumented testing on identical cars with identical tires, one set siped, one set not siped. Then there'd also need to be a long-term testing to match/compare wear rates. Then, that'd have to be done time & again, to average out in town vs. highway miles and other variables such as driving routes and personal driving habits.. because all these variables play a role in tire life.
It would take an incredible amount of corporate dollars to do enough testing to get documented proof that siping a tire is ripping people off.
See how muddy the waters can get? It's much easier for a salesman to say "it'll grip better and run cooler and last longer" and you buy it. Because, what else besides the seat of your pants can tell you otherwise? If you don't think you got ripped off, and you're pleased with the grip and handling, then I wouldn't say you got ripped off.
sen-pai wrote:i have my accord tires siped every time and i always exceed the product tire life. at my work we charge i thinkg 5 dollars 4 all of them which isn't nothing, and sometimes we do it for free, for our store i personally don't think its about making money, but in my opinion and personal experience and other friends it helps dramatically and doesn't kill the tire life. the only tire that shouldn't be siped is a yokohama yk420 that was proven to shorten the life
man thats the tires i got siped too