Sharia Law In America?

[Cold_Zero]

Bah. I say screw the rest of the world. Knock our history teaching if it's not adequate. "The other kids are dumber" is no excuse to be a retard.

Thank you IBCoupe for putting words into my mouth. That is exactly the point I was not getting at. I wasn't making any excuses for ignorant people, I was just pointing out how I can understand that Islam can be perceived as a threat and disturbing to people in this country. Probably not to people in Dearborn, New York or New Jersey.

My point T, is that when the rest of the 'Muslim world' (whatever that means) has righteous indignation over Danish Cartoons of the Prophet (in a Norwegian newspaper), Qur’ans being flushed down the toilet (which wasnt true) or opposition to this Mosque being built, they really need to have some perspective on what goes on in Muslim countries. I find it ironic that Muslims believe in this whole 'brotherhood of Muslim believers' doctrine (dont know what it is called in Islam), yet it is only used to show solidarity and not to reprove their fellow brothers. Personally, I would think if you loved your brother, you would point out his error in an attempt to reconcile him.

I think that is why people are so alarmed at Islam in the West. Not so much at radical Islam (it is easy to dismiss the nut jobs) but moderate Islam. There appears to be a perception in the West that moderates seem to condone the radicals because of some perceived power that they provide. If radicals can topple the west, then the Moderates (who obviously have the numbers and more resources) can sweep in and take over. Kind of like the whole fifth column concept. Look I don’t hold this view nor do I condone it either.

[IBCoupe]

Woah there. I was responding to Greg:

Let's not knock the teaching of history in THIS country unless we're going to knock the teaching of FALSE history in the middle eastern countries.

[AZhitman]

Good point, I guess I should have said, "Don't let me hear someone from the Middle East criticizing our teachings on history unless they want to get schooled on their own region's history."

But ultimately, you're right.

[AZhitman]

I think that is why people are so alarmed at Islam in the West. Not so much at radical Islam (it is easy to dismiss the nut jobs) but moderate Islam. There appears to be a perception in the West that moderates seem to condone the radicals because of some perceived power that they provide. If radicals can topple the west, then the Moderates (who obviously have the numbers and more resources) can sweep in and take over. Kind of like the whole fifth column concept. Look I don’t hold this view nor do I condone it either.

I think you're onto something here, and I think we're ALL still learning WHAT we believe.

Don't be so quick to distance yourself from it, because I don't think it's offensive to be uncertain or ignorant under these circumstances. This may well be the perception of a LOT of westerners, they just haven't quantified it.

[Cold_Zero]

IBCoupe, I stand (acutally sit) corrected. I apologize for taking you to task.

[IBCoupe]

Greg,
I think you're right about learning about what we think. There hasn't been a great religious issue to confront us (unless you consider the Church of Happyology to be an issue) as a culture, and so we haven't had much time to consider it. Not to be tooting my own horn or anything, but I think my religious background (and the information and philosophies that have been pounded into our heads, especially since WWII) has given me the jump over all you heathens. Children are indoctrinated with the fear of persecution from a young age in modern Jewish-American society, and so I feel we have a special sympathy for other groups.

That said, and to wander further into a forbidden topic, I can't for the life of me figure out why the ADL has taken the position it has on the "Ground Zero Mosque" issue.

It's a shame that America's religious reflection began with the act of religious extremists, as I think that has tarnished much of the discussion.

Cold,
I didn't actually specify who I was talking to, so it's at least half my fault.

[Cold_Zero]

What I do find laughable about the ground zero mosque issue is that the Constitution gets dragged out for this issue (when it is not a matter of religious freedom but one of funding and zoning with a touch of preferencial treatment). Give me a break. I have said my piece, build the damn thing so we can see the real motive behind the center.

[IBCoupe]

The reason the Constitution got dragged out was in response to the kinds of arguments made against the project. The arguments weren't about zoning, or preferential treatment (and the arguments about funding were flimsy, as the allegations that it was funded by questionable groups falls on its face when it's revealed that no fundraising for the actual project has been done yet). They were about collective guilt and religious intolerance. And the Constitution gets involved where the proper response is: Government can't be a tool for either of those things.

[heliochrome85]

The reason the Constitution got dragged out was in response to the kinds of arguments made against the project. The arguments weren't about zoning, or preferential treatment (and the arguments about funding were flimsy, as the allegations that it was funded by questionable groups falls on its face when it's revealed that no fundraising for the actual project has been done yet). They were about collective guilt and religious intolerance. And the Constitution gets involved where the proper response is: Government can't be a tool for either of those things.

agreed.

its really difficult to read the news and not come away feeling like you are an unwanted member of society. they dont want a "mosque" near ground zero because Muslim terrorists caused 3000 deaths there. they dont realize that a mosque is already there, as is one in the pentagon. The funding issue falls flat. The Imam was chosen by GWB to promote healing after 9/11 and has been a part of interfaith dialogues on behalf of the US government for years. It absolutely sickens me the way we are viewed in this country, my country. It really serves to strengthen my resolve to leave here as soon as I have the financial means because ultimately, we are not welcome. I feel less safe now, and less tolerated now, then after two thugs threw bricks through the windows of my house after 9/11. Thats sad.

[IBCoupe]

Tariq, I'd urge you not to fall prey to the same pitfalls that many of the project's opponents do. That there are some who would throw bricks through your family's window is not representative of the rest of us. That some would stand up at a zoning meeting and say that this project is an insult to the people who were killed by extremists doesn't mean that most of us agree with it.

I see the same sort of extremism supplying the foundation for your fears as does theirs.

[heliochrome85]

Tariq, I'd urge you not to fall prey to the same pitfalls that many of the project's opponents do. That there are some who would throw bricks through your family's window is not representative of the rest of us. That some would stand up at a zoning meeting and say that this project is an insult to the people who were killed by extremists doesn't mean that most of us agree with it.

I see the same sort of extremism supplying the foundation for your fears as does theirs.

oh i am well aware that things arent nearly as black and white as they sometimes appear to be. that being said, it is really tough to be muslim in this country. our mosques are attacked, our families are threatened, and all the while, we are wrong for even existing. FoxNews and the pundits have made billions off the fear mongering.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41112.html

nice to know that we are nazis now.


funny thing is that im moving to Brooklyn in a few weeks. I wonder if the mosque I will attend will be attacked for being an affront to mainstream America, since the one I go to here in middle america has been.

[Cold_Zero]

The reason the Constitution got dragged out was in response to the kinds of arguments made against the project.

So what government institution is opposing this project that the 1st Amendment has to be dragged out to support the project? As far as I can see it is just some people and no local/state/federal insitution opposing it.

The arguments weren't about zoning, or preferential treatment (and the arguments about funding were flimsy, as the allegations that it was funded by questionable groups falls on its face when it's revealed that no fundraising for the actual project has been done yet).

These are the arguments that people are putting forward or are you just reading between the lines and can you search people's heart to get their true motive? Racism! That is what you seem to be implying. I think what people are upset about is how fast the zoning was cleared and it seems to imply that it was fast tracked by someone/ some group. Especially, when other building projects have been quashed. But you do raise a good point, a $100 million bulding project appears gets fast tracked with no fund raising already performed? Wonder if I could get favorable zoning terms like that for Saint Nikolas Orthodox church? Where is the fast track for their issues?

They were about collective guilt and religious intolerance. And the Constitution gets involved where the proper response is: Government can't be a tool for either of those things.

Again, where is this coming from in the halls of government? To be honest the only thing I see is the President apologizing to and trying to make nice with the middle east.
I am sorry I need to eat my Gyro and Fatoosh salad before it gets cold/warm respectively.

[AZhitman]

that being said, it is really tough to be muslim in this country. our mosques are attacked, our families are threatened, and all the while, we are wrong for even existing.

It was really tough to be a Christian in Armenia, too. See, the "sins of the fathers" may well be visited upon the sons.

Throwing your hands up and walking away because your freedoms are perceived as insufficent is an affront to all who fought and died so that you and your family CAN worship as you choose. What has the West given you? What has the old country given you?

With that said, I'm sorry you have to deal with ANY backlash. It's just not right.

[heliochrome85]

that being said, it is really tough to be muslim in this country. our mosques are attacked, our families are threatened, and all the while, we are wrong for even existing.

It was really tough to be a Christian in Armenia, too. See, the "sins of the fathers" may well be visited upon the sons.

Throwing your hands up and walking away because your freedoms are perceived as insufficent is an affront to all who fought and died so that you and your family CAN worship as you choose. What has the West given you? What has the old country given you?

With that said, I'm sorry you have to deal with ANY backlash. It's just not right.

You think I am not grateful for the sacrifices? My issue is that in thread after thread, i have to pay for the errors of 19. If i travel, i get searched. If im on a plane, i cant say a word for fear that some bluehair from boca will call me a terrorlst. If i worship, I have to be weary in case someone decides to throw moltov cocktails at the place. Incomplete maybe, unequal definately.

[heliochrome85]

i cant say that i know much about the Church situation, but I dont see any reason why they shouldnt be allowed to build. if we have proven to the world anything int he last 10 years, its that the terrorists won. Every time the israelis get attacked, the building is rebuilt within weeks. Just to show that life goes on. here we are 10 years on, and we still have an open pit. We live in fear. Our travel is limited, our economy is shaky, and our politics are no better than that of Ahmadiniad. Whats most disappointing, is how much weve adapted to make this current lifestyle "the strong position" while we gamble away our freedoms in order to defeat the terrorists. Sorry America, we already lost.

[Cold_Zero]

It was really tough to be a Christian in Armenia, too. See, the "sins of the fathers" may well be visited upon the sons.

And Eastern Turkey and Nakhchivan!

[IBCoupe]

So what government institution is opposing this project that the 1st Amendment has to be dragged out to support the project? As far as I can see it is just some people and no local/state/federal insitution opposing it.

None, because the Constitution prohibits it. That doesn't mean people aren't asking it to, and it's that action that invokes a Constitutional response. You're being really nitpicky and it's not helping your case.

These are the arguments that people are putting forward or are you just reading between the lines and can you search people's heart to get their true motive? Racism! That is what you seem to be implying. I think what people are upset about is how fast the zoning was cleared and it seems to imply that it was fast tracked by someone/ some group. Especially, when other building projects have been quashed. But you do raise a good point, a $100 million bulding project appears gets fast tracked with no fund raising already performed? Wonder if I could get favorable zoning terms like that for Saint Nikolas Orthodox church? Where is the fast track for their issues?

Well, tell me this: how is this at all an insult to the victims, unless you see all Islam and all Muslims as the same, as as guilty for the acts of 9/11? Collective guilt. I'm not peering into the hearts of people, I'm logically dissecting their arguments.

People are not upset about the zoning process. Read the news, read the now-locked thread if you don't believe me. It is not the zoning process that is drawing public ire. It wasn't the zoning process that people were upset about in the Long Island deli I visited Saturday morning.

Again, where is this coming from in the halls of government? To be honest the only thing I see is the President apologizing to and trying to make nice with the middle east.

As per before.

[Cold_Zero]

So what government institution is opposing this project that the 1st Amendment has to be dragged out to support the project? As far as I can see it is just some people and no local/state/federal insitution opposing it.

None, because the Constitution prohibits it. That doesn't mean people aren't asking it to, and it's that action that invokes a Constitutional response. You're being really nitpicky and it's not helping your case.

I think you are living in a bit of a vacuum on this issue. Zoning ordinances are used all the time to prevent churches from being built in localities around this country and no where is the 'free excercise clause' of the US Constitution ever brought up.

So a few Muslims in this country get butt hurt because there is popular opposition to them building a community center and mosque. No government institution has prohibited them from doing so and the Mayor and President pull out the constitution? I am glad that both men have a new found love for the United States Constitution.
You say I am nitpicky, I say I am thorough.

These are the arguments that people are putting forward or are you just reading between the lines and can you search people's heart to get their true motive? Racism! That is what you seem to be implying. I think what people are upset about is how fast the zoning was cleared and it seems to imply that it was fast tracked by someone/ some group. Especially, when other building projects have been quashed. But you do raise a good point, a $100 million bulding project appears gets fast tracked with no fund raising already performed? Wonder if I could get favorable zoning terms like that for Saint Nikolas Orthodox church? Where is the fast track for their issues?

Well, tell me this: how is this at all an insult to the victims, unless you see all Islam and all Muslims as the same, as as guilty for the acts of 9/11? Collective guilt. I'm not peering into the hearts of people, I'm logically dissecting their arguments.

No where did I ever claim this was an insult to the victims. To me, that argument doesn’t fly as I want Saint Nikolas Orthodox Church to be rebuilt. They have been waiting over 9 years now and have been met with bureaucracy and delays. Tell you what, I would be willing to make a deal. If we can have the Hagi Sophia back so that it can be used for worship, then build the dang mosque on Ground Zero. To me, that is a fair trade.

People are not upset about the zoning process. Read the news, read the now-locked thread if you don't believe me. It is not the zoning process that is drawing public ire. It wasn't the zoning process that people were upset about in the Long Island deli I visited Saturday morning.

There is your problem, everyone knows the best delis are in Manhattan not Long Island.

[Cold_Zero]

If they wanted to create good will, they would simply move to another section of town. What do they have to gain by creating ill will by the choice of location? Martyrdom? Trying to play the victim? Triumphant point? I have no clue. When the Taliban destroyed the Ancient Buddhas of Bamyan, even though the statues were not sacred to me..I understood it was wrong to destroy them. I think that there is a place in this world for taking the high road and respecting the wishes of others even though it may be ‘your right’ to do so.

[IBCoupe]

I think you are living in a bit of a vacuum on this issue. Zoning ordinances are used all the time to prevent churches from being built in localities around this country and no where is the 'free excercise clause' of the US Constitution ever brought up.

Was there an applicable one here? I have my doubts.

So a few Muslims in this country get butt hurt because there is popular opposition to them building a community center and mosque. No government institution has prohibited them from doing so and the Mayor and President pull out the constitution? I am glad that both men have a new found love for the United States Constitution.
You say I am nitpicky, I say I am thorough.

So a few people get butt-hurt over a community center and a mosque being built near Ground Zero. You've forgotten that you said that the Constitutional issue was laughable, and I've merely explained why it's there. There are people saying the government should stop this from happening, and the Constitutional issue is why the Government can't.

No where did I ever claim this was an insult to the victims. To me, that argument doesn’t fly as I want Saint Nikolas Orthodox Church to be rebuilt. They have been waiting over 9 years now and have been met with bureaucracy and delays. Tell you what, I would be willing to make a deal. If we can have the Hagi Sophia back so that it can be used for worship, then build the dang mosque on Ground Zero. To me, that is a fair trade.

Correct, you didn't claim this was an insult to the victims. I'm merely pointing out that this argument has been made, and the proper analysis of that argument results in a "religious intolerance" and/or a "collective guilt" label. Again, you said that the Constitutional issue was laughable, and I'm explaining why it was used. It may not be applicable to the specific objections you raise, but it is applicable to the loudest objections being voiced.

[AZhitman]

My issue is that in thread after thread, i have to pay for the errors of 19. If i travel, i get searched. If im on a plane, i cant say a word for fear that some bluehair from boca will call me a terrorlst. If i worship, I have to be weary in case someone decides to throw moltov cocktails at the place. Incomplete maybe, unequal definately.

I told you how I feel about your situation. And there's not a damn thing I can do to force people, in a free society, to see things any differently.

If it makes you feel any better, there's a lot of Americans over there paying for the errors of... wait.... nope, nobody.

[heliochrome85]

My issue is that in thread after thread, i have to pay for the errors of 19. If i travel, i get searched. If im on a plane, i cant say a word for fear that some bluehair from boca will call me a terrorlst. If i worship, I have to be weary in case someone decides to throw moltov cocktails at the place. Incomplete maybe, unequal definately.

I told you how I feel about your situation. And there's not a damn thing I can do to force people, in a free society, to see things any differently.

If it makes you feel any better, there's a lot of Americans over there paying for the errors of... wait.... nope, nobody.

Eh, I wasnt named "The Angry Arab" for nothing

[heliochrome85]

If they wanted to create good will, they would simply move to another section of town. What do they have to gain by creating ill will by the choice of location? Martyrdom? Trying to play the victim? Triumphant point? I have no clue. When the Taliban destroyed the Ancient Buddhas of Bamyan, even though the statues were not sacred to me..I understood it was wrong to destroy them. I think that there is a place in this world for taking the high road and respecting the wishes of others even though it may be ‘your right’ to do so.

the thing is, i dont think they should have to move. when you force them to move, what you are saying is they are free to practice their religion, just not in lower manhattan. What kind of freedom is that?

[heliochrome85]

Ataturk was the one who converted it to a museum. it was a mosque for 700 years before that. he was a moron.

If the Omayyad Mosque in Damascus is any example of Byzantine Church design, then I can only imagine what the Hagia Sophia is like....

[Cold_Zero]

Was there an applicable one here? I have my doubts.

No and that is my point. It seems that the Mayor and the President were pretty quick to pull out the Constitution when it didnt even apply here. Even if a board had ruled that there were zoning issues, which is my point here , it is not an infringement of the Free Exercise clause.

So a few people get butt-hurt over a community center and a mosque being built near Ground Zero. You've forgotten that you said that the Constitutional issue was laughable, and I've merely explained why it's there. There are people saying the government should stop this from happening, and the Constitutional issue is why the Government can't.

Correct, you didn't claim this was an insult to the victims. I'm merely pointing out that this argument has been made, and the proper analysis of that argument results in a "religious intolerance" and/or a "collective guilt" label. Again, you said that the Constitutional issue was laughable, and I'm explaining why it was used. It may not be applicable to the specific objections you raise, but it is applicable to the loudest objections being voiced.

Religious intolerance is not necessarily an infringement of the US Constitution, especially since in today's world that term has been defined as a very loose term. It could be an infringement of the Fairness Doctrine and most likely Political Correctness. So what if I think that a religion is wrong, protest their house of worship being built in my neighborhood and even have the gall to tell it to their face? It is NOT an infringement of the US Constitution. Like it or hate it, it is protected under my free speech. Obviously, I am picking the most extreme case here to make a point and as a citizen of the United States I believe that people have the right to practice their religion with out Government interference.

[AZhitman]

I don't think they should HAVE to move either. I support their RIGHT to build a full-blown, gold-plated, 114-story megamosque smack-dab in the middle of GZ.

That's not to say I won't cast a critical eye at their decision to take advantage of those rights... which, interestingly enough, is my right.

Then again, the conflict is certainly blown out of proportion - The proposed site IS pretty far away, as New York distances go.

Accurate or no: Does the Qu'ran speak to the construction of triumphal mosques on "conquered" lands? I've not been able to find confirmation or outright denial.

[Cold_Zero]

If they wanted to create good will, they would simply move to another section of town. What do they have to gain by creating ill will by the choice of location? Martyrdom? Trying to play the victim? Triumphant point? I have no clue. When the Taliban destroyed the Ancient Buddhas of Bamyan, even though the statues were not sacred to me..I understood it was wrong to destroy them. I think that there is a place in this world for taking the high road and respecting the wishes of others even though it may be ‘your right’ to do so.

the thing is, i dont think they should have to move. when you force them to move, what you are saying is they are free to practice their religion, just not in lower manhattan. What kind of freedom is that?

Tariq, I kind of agree with you. But I see it from the persepective of a former council member, where we would not do anything to create ill will with the community where we are located. We had a chance to sue the city over a premit issue, we didnt and months later the city bought our easement for a good chunk of change. I guess that is the point that I was driving out.
I teach my daughter that even though she may be right or have the right to do something, she can still be wrong in certain instances. While I dont want her to live in fear of offending people for the rest of her life, she may have to put the needs of others before her own to create good will.

[Cold_Zero]

Does the Qu'ran speak to the construction of triumphal mosques on "conquered" lands?

I can name a few that were built ontop or out of Orthodox Churches.

[AZhitman]

I'm sure there were. I'm asking what the text says.

[stebo0728]

Oh wow, goody, we got the mosque argument going again? LOL

Hey I heard that the landing gear for one of the planes actually fell right into the building they are wanting to turn into this mosque.

Also I heard all the argument about this being a "multi-faith" establishment, that will just so happen to have a muslim prayer chamber? I heard that the main financier for the project has publicly stated that "no in fact it will be a mosque"

As for mosques built over churches, lets see theres The Dome of The Rock, built over the ancient hebrew temple mount, theres Istanbul, theres Cordova in Spain, and others. Although I believe that the eastern muslim nations will most likely view this mosque as a similar symbol of conquest, I am not convinced just yet that its the actual intent of the project. That is entirely possible, and perhaps even plausible. Ive heard alot of bad press about the Imam involved, his calls for "sharia compliance" in America, which wont happend anytime soon, but still advocating it is a bit squeamish. But all said, Im still not convinced that its intended as a symbol of conquest. But I still think, above all else, it is in extremely poor taste to conceive such a plan, whether your free to do it or not.