SCOTUS to examine 2nd. Amendment right to bear arms.

A place for intelligent and well-thought-out discussion involving politics and associated topics. No nonsense will be tolerated at all.
User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

US Supreme Court and the right to bear arms.
AP NEWS wrote:WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court gets to write on a blank slate when it takes up the meaning of the Second Amendment "right to keep and bear arms" and the District of Columbia's ban on handguns.

The nine justices have said almost nothing about gun rights, and their predecessors have likewise given no definitive answer to whether the Constitution protects an individuals right to own guns or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia.

The case that will be argued Tuesday is among the most closely watched of the term, drawing 68 briefs from outside groups. Most of those support an individuals right to own a gun.

"This may be one of the only cases in our lifetime when the Supreme Court is going to interpret an important provision of our Constitution unencumbered by precedent," said Georgetown University law professor Randy Barnett.

Even if they determine there is an individual right, the justices still will have to decide whether the capital's 32-year-old handgun ban can stand and how to evaluate other gun control laws. This issue has caused division within the Bush administration, with Vice President d!ck Cheney taking a harder line than the administration's official position at the court
Grammatically speaking the intent of the 2nd Amendment is not crystal clear, and that's always been the problem. A strict, constructionist reading arguably shows only that it permits the existence of citizens' militia and that "..the right of the people to keep and bear arms..." is only a figurative reference to militias.
AFP wrote: The court's decision -- on whether the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamentally an individual or collective right -- is expected to have a far reaching impact on US gun control laws, experts say.

The high court has never before issued a ruling on the interpretation of the second amendment to the constitution, which states: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Regardless of the outcome, the SCOTUS ruling will be law. Most Constitutional Law lawyers will tell you it is easier to attack a law as it is applied to a limited situation. It doesn’t seem that this is the case here though. In ruling, SCOTUS may choose to limit the ruling, if unfavorable, to specific legislation, as is the Washington D.C. legislation, or they may issue a ruling with sweeping reach.
NRA wrote:U.S. Supreme Court To Hear D.C. Gun Case On March 18, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in District of Columbia v. Heller. In November, the Court announced its decision to take the case in which plaintiffs challenge the constitutionality of the District's gun ban. The District of Columbia appealed a lower court’s ruling last year affirming that the Second Amendment of the Constitution protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, and that the District’s bans on handguns, carrying firearms within the home, and possession of loaded or operable firearms for self-defense violate that right.
The following have filed amicus (friend of the court) briefs in support of Heller (I.E., supporting private ownership of guns)

National Rifle Association Academics Academics for the Second Amendment Alaska Outdoor Council American Center for Law and Justice American Civil Rights Union American Legislative Exchange Council Association of American Physicians and Surgeons Buckeye Firearms Foundation, et al. Cato Institute and Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm Center for Individual Freedom Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms Congress of Racial Equality Criminologists Disabled Veterans for Self-Defense Eagle Forum Education and Legal Defense Fund Former Justice Department officials Foundation for Free Expression Foundation for Moral Law GeorgiaCarry.org Goldwater Institute Grass Roots of South Carolina Gun Owners of America Heartland Institute Institute for Justice International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association International Scholars Jeanette Moll Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership Joseph B. Scarnati, III, President Pro Tempore of the Pennsylvania Senate Libertarian National Committee Liberty Legal Institute Major General John D. Altenburg, et al. Maricopa County (Ariz.) Attorney's office Members of Congress and Vice-President Cheney Mountain States Legal Foundation National Shooting Sports Foundation Paragon Foundation Pink Pistols Retired military officers Rutherford Institute Second Amendment Foundation Southeastern Legal Foundation State Firearms Associations Texas and other states Virginia1774.org Women state legislators and academics

The following have filed amicus briefs in support of Washington D.C. (I.E. favoring more restrictive, or prohibitions on gun ownership)

American Academy of Pediatrics American Bar Association American Public Health Association, et al. Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, et al. City of Chicago Coalition of civil rights groups D.C. Appleseed Center for Law and Justice, et al. District Attorneys Former Department of Justice Officials Historians Major U.S. cities and the U.S. Conference of Mayors Members of Congress NAACP Legal Defense & Educational Fund National Network to End Domestic Violence, et al. New York and other states Professors Erwin Chemerinsky and Adam Winkler Professors of criminal justice Professors of linguistics Violence Policy Center and various police chiefs

You can see that the "against" side has all the heavy hitters ( legal and Legislative.)

This will be an interesting ruling. How do you feel about further restrictions on gun ownership?



User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

The filings of the amicus briefs have been going on for a while, now its time to get down to business. Apparently, the Court threw out a bunch of briefs that were field, but did not have a stake in the ruling. Your post reminds me to listen to Cam and Company tonight. Tuesday night they will replay the audio of the day's arguments.

It should be pointed out that the DC gun ban:Allows only law enforcement officials, active duty Military (as a part of their job), and former police officers the the ability to own handguns in DC. Citizens may own rifles and shotguns in the district if they are stored unloaded, disassembled and with a trigger lock or stored in a safe. Now citizens in DC that shoot and kill a criminal with a handgun do not get arrested for actually killing the criminal but are charged with possession of a handgun. How ironic is that?

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

You realize that the potential for this ruling reaches far beyond Washington D.C. If they rule that such a ban is constitutional, then you can be sure that stricter gun control and/or limitations on gun ownership are just around the corner. The NRA may have a large lobby, but that won’t do much good in the SCOTUS building.

User avatar
Rick Damone Jr
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:27 pm

Post

take away our guns and there will be a revolution

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

I am an NRA member and I listen to Cam and Company. I think I understand the ramifications of The District of Columbia v Heller. People have been saying that this ruling will be the Roe V. Wade of this current generation.

The anti gun lobby have already been decrying that if the DC gun ban is ruled unconstitutional, all the gun bans in NY, Chicago and all over the land will fall and there will be blood in the streets. We both know that this wont happen. And other cases will bring the other bans into the courts.

Apparently, Cleavland has put its gun ban legislation on hold pending the outcome of the District v. Heller.

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

On the other hand, if it is ruled constitutional, there will be a surge of legislation designed to further regulate, even ban guns. What will probably happen, regardless of which way the court rules, is that the ruling will be narrow and directed to a specific set of facts and circumstances, and not a yea or nay on the right to bear arms.

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

There are a few metropolitan areas considering a ban, pending the ruling of this case. I believe Gary Indiana is one of them.

Apparently, this case marks the first time a Second Amendment challenge to a firearm law has reached the Supreme Court since 1939!

DC is also considering a Voluntary Gun Search.
NRA-ILA wrote:D.C.’s "Voluntary" Gun Search Program Raises Concerns Friday, March 14, 2008

It’s quite a quandary for the leaders of our nation’s capitol. They govern a city that has had an outright ban on handguns for more than three decades, yet they’re constantly looking for panaceas for the District’s high rate of gun crime. How ironic it is that a city that should be an anti-gunner’s utopia is constantly plagued with “gun violence.” While dismissing logic and burying their heads in the sand, these leaders continue to try to avoid the unavoidable conclusion: Criminals don’t obey the law and have been ignoring the gun ban since its inception. Only the law-abiding obey the law.

Enter their latest attempt at a remedy—the so-called “Safe Homes Initiative.”

Last November, we reported on a similar sham-program being considered in Boston. As with that program, D.C. police will soon begin asking parents and guardians to allow “voluntary” searches of their homes and children’s (or other relative’s) bedrooms for firearms—without notice or warrants.

While parents and guardians have the right to refuse the search, questions of constitutionality, intimidation, and civil liberties have rightly been raised. There is also a fear that people may be too intimidated to deny police access to their homes, or may not understand the legal implications of their compliance with the search, which, despite assurances of amnesty, could include arrest and prosecution.

As reported on Washingtonpost.com, Arthur B. Spitzer, legal director of the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), said the program is “a very bad idea.” Spitzer said that officers might act so aggressively that residents feel coerced into letting them in. “It sends the message to the public that the police ought to be able to search your house anytime for any reason. People will be intimidated. That cheapens civil liberties and privacy for everyone.”

The program is scheduled to start on March 24.

User avatar
Repo Man
Moderator
Posts: 8980
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:52 am
Car: 2020 Frontier Pro4X
2003 Honda Accord
Location: Indy
Contact:

Post

The 2nd Amendment clearly states that it is the "right of the people" that will not be infringed. It defies common sense to think that the founding fathers would grant such specific powers to the government when they were indeed writing a Bill of Rights to ensure that the people would not have their rights infringed upon. Some would argue that the word "militia" means National Guard, or the equivalent thereof. To that I would say, uh, sorry, but there was no National Guard when the Bill of Rights was written.

I don't think that Heller is going to be definitive either way. I think it will be limited, but it will come down on the side of an individual right. This doesn't mean that gun control is going to be abolished or certain bans in certain states being repealed.

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

Because this is a federal case, whatever ruling SCOTUS renders will be binding on all states and municipalities. It will be interesting to see how far this court will go in interpreting what the founding fathers intended when they drafted the US Constitution. SCOTUS has traditionally avoid rendering decisions with broad sweeping reach in favor of defining limiting circumstances to the application of the constitution. This case is interesting because the court may be forced to address the intent of the 2nd. amendment.


User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

Watching Jami Floyd on Court TV. They had Gillian St. Lawrence on the show. She is one of the original plantiffs of the DC Ban and she has cut through most of the weak defenses that the show threw at her. It is amazing that one of the hosts on the show couldn't put Britians total gun ban together with the rise in crime. Sure, homicides from guns have gone down (no brain'er) but she couldnt connect the link to more crime.

This ruling will not repeal the 1934 National Firearms Act, The Federal Firearms Act of 1938, The 1968 Gun Control Act, The 1986 McClure-Volkmer Act, or The 1993 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. The hosts of the show dealt more with these acts with their defense of gun control than with the 2nd Amendment which is what DC v. Heller deals with.


User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

C-SPAN is playing the audio of the oral arguments of (07-290) DC v Heller.

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

I'm listening too. Sounds like they are looking closely at whether the right to bear arms is collective or individual.

Dellinger "I don't see that a machine gun is as dangerous as a hand gun."What the heck, did he miss that shootout at the BofA in N.Hollywood about 10 years ago?

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

I saw that and had to chuckle. He also made that comment that the District of Columbia did not have a problem with people keeping a loaded shotgun for defense. Technically, he lied to the court. I think Paul Clement is making a better point.

User avatar
homeslicej2
Posts: 5446
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:46 pm
Car: 1990 Nissan 240SX S13 SR'd hatch

Post

I've been waiting for a case such as this to reach the Supreme Court. I am currently shopping around for handguns for both myself and my wife. My hope is that the court rules in favor of individual gun rights. I personally will not stand for a loss of individual gun rights (for those with no prior history of felony crime). I am not of the opinion, nor were the founding fathers, that only the government should be armed and the general populace unarmed. Casting off an oppressive regime/government is quite improbable when it's citizenry is unable to defend itself against a fully armed government. People claim that an unarmed populace leads to less crime, crimes of passion maybe, but not crime itself. Criminals will still get guns. I want to be able to defend myself against an armed assailant with the same means which they attack me. I have heard those who are against individual gun rights, call firearms a "security blanket" for scared, paranoid people. Maybe, but isn't that what programs such as Social Security and Medicare are for? I'm scared that I will not be able to provide for myself, so do it for me so I will feel safe. Take away my gun rights, as I am not a convicted felon and have a clean record (except that one time when I was 13 ), and there will be problems. I didn't realize we had a political sub-forum

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

Wow, their getting right to the heart of the matter.

Justice Breyer - "80,000 to 100,000 people injured or killed by handguns each year. In light of that, why isn't a ban on handguns, while allowing the use of rifles, not a reasonable exercise of power by Washington DC."

Alan Gura, (for Heller). " Because when they enter the military they will get handguns and be better able to do that?"

Beyer - "Tell me why it is unreasonable for a city with such a high crime rate to ban handguns?"

Gura - (for Heller)"Proficiency in the use of a handgun would further the militia purpose"

Ginsburg - "Is there any restriction on the legislature?" (re: gun control)

I'm guessing, Beyer, and Ginsburg are pro control, and Kennedy and Scalia are anti-control. You can't draw any conclusion from the questions the justices ask, but Gura isn't doing that good of a job, in my opinion, expressing logical answers to their questions.

Wow, Gura, Helle's attorney, just said that he felt that it was appropriate for the Government ban weapons not appropriate for personal use. Did he just open the door for the whole issue re: handgun being an appropriate personal weapon?

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

Well, the only person that did a reasonable job was Paul Clement. Gura and Dellinger did a pretty bad job. I thought that the majority of Gura's rebuttals centered around machine guns. Not so much handguns. The people that brought up machine guns and the military readiness were the two Generals filing briefs.

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

Is Justice Thompson even there?

Justice Breyer doesn't know how a trigger lock works? Did I miss something?

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

What is ironic is that they are talking about taking the Crime Statistics into consideration with banning handguns, yet Maryland says that in order to receive a Carry Permit you must show that you live in a high crime area. ha!

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

Stevens "What about a state university banning guns on campus...

Gura, uh, bah, uh...

Stevens "You want to think about that do you?"


User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

Cold_Zero wrote:Is Justice Thompson even there?

Justice Breyer doesn't know how a trigger lock works? Did I miss something?
RE: the trigger locks...

Scalia - "So it's like 3-22-13 right, you turn on the light, grab your reading glasses, and ...

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

Schools and Universities are covered under the Safe Schools Act of 1994. I believe that is what it was called. Clinton signed it into law.

The whole exchange on the trigger locks was quite funny. Remember, trigger locks only apply to shotguns and rifles. There is a total ban on handguns.

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

Adrian Fenty (DC Mayor), just lied during the comments after the oral arguments. Crime has NOT slowly gone down. The murder rates of DC have risen (above the 1976 level) every year since 1976 except for one year. Maybe we need to have the DC cops turn in their handguns as a "Reasonable" regulation towards handgun control.

The Rhetoric during the Remarks is pretty bad.

I think the FBI's statistics speaks volumes:2004City Population (Violent Crimes) MurdersWashington 553,523 7,336 198Indianapolis 800,589 7,067 109 2005 Washington 550,521 7,716 195 Indianapolis 800,304 7,948 1082006Washington 581,530 8,408 169Indianapolis 800,969 7,689 140

Keep in mind, Indiana has virtually little gun control laws for people who want to keep handguns, rifles or shotguns in their homes. We have more population and lower crime than in the District of Columbia.

joe603
Posts: 8200
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:45 am
Car: 2014 Durango R/T
Location: Atlanta

Post

Let me state the obvious. Guns are an equalizer.

20-30 years ago if you had something to settle, you took it out back and beat the crap out of each other. The big guy usually wins. However, guns equalize that advantage so now size doesn't matter.

Take that line of thinking to a criminal. Right now they don't know if the person their about to rob has a gun because guns are legal. If guns were made illegal, it would increase the probability that the person they are about to rob DOSENT have a gun. This would give the advantage back to the "bigger" person. (bigger physically or carrying a weapon).

The outcome of this case could have disastrous effects...

User avatar
Repo Man
Moderator
Posts: 8980
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:52 am
Car: 2020 Frontier Pro4X
2003 Honda Accord
Location: Indy
Contact:

Post

Or just the opposite if the Court upholds what anyone with a brain knows to be true.

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

After listening to part of the oral argument today, I don't think the court is going to rule on the constitutionality of owning guns. I think they are going to address whether or not the DC statute against handguns is a proper subject for local legislation. The court really seemed interested in the distinction between handguns and rifles. Rifles are apparently protected by the 2nd amendment, handguns appears, to them, to be a grey area.

You can really not draw any inference from the questions the court asks, but they seemed to focused on whether or not handguns were properly within the 2nd amendment. It was interesting watching them probe for answers and watching the attorneys squirm. Some did well, others didn't.

It was one of the most interesting arguments I've heard, as the justices were a very active part of it. They certainly don't take their duties lightly.

I would have loved to seen it televised, but SCOTUS doesn't allow camers.


User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

The justices were all over the place in regards to their questions. I am sure that a lot of the issues were mentioned in the amicus briefs but not openly debated during the oral arguments today. I did appreciate the mention of English Law and the Founding Fathers in regards to the 2nd Amendment. What perplexes me is that most states observe the right of its citizens to own handguns. Only a few municipalities ban ownership of them. Why was there great discussion if the 2nd Amendment applied to the Militia or Citizen ownership, when the law of the land through all the states basically say that its a citizen's right to own a handgun? Maybe its the drugs that I have taken for my bronchitus and I just don't understand...

ishkabibble
Posts: 4667
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:08 pm
Car: 1992 Nissan NX2000 hardtop
1993 Nissan NX2000 t-top
1997 Infiniti I30t

Post

As a DC resident, I really hope they overturn the gun ban. Nearly all of the criminals on my block have guns, while almost none of the other residents do.

User avatar
Cold_Zero
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Altima SE 3.5
2005 Nissan Pathfinder

Post

So, we have to wait until June to see the verdict? Does anything else happen from now until June?

User avatar
Repo Man
Moderator
Posts: 8980
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:52 am
Car: 2020 Frontier Pro4X
2003 Honda Accord
Location: Indy
Contact:

Post

I don't think anything happens that we would know about really until the verdict is handed down. Nothing like waiting, huh?

User avatar
rn79870
Posts: 4807
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:54 am
Car: 2008 G35 & 2005 Vette C6 vert.

Post

Cold_Zero wrote:So, we have to wait until June to see the verdict? Does anything else happen from now until June?
As I understand it, SCOTUS will select a Justice to write the majority opinion for the court. If the decision was a split decision, they will select a Justice to write the descending opinion for the court. The justices will then add their names with an "I concur" entry to either of the opinions. There is an odd number of justices to avoid ties.

We will see nothing and hear nothing about the case until the ruling is announced.

From the oral arguments, I think SCOTUS clearly focused on whether or not restriction of handgun ownership was a proper exercise of legislative power for a state or municipality. This case has nothing to do with ownership of a rifle. In fact, SCOTUS all but said that rifle ownership was clearly protected by the Constitution and was not an issue in this case. To me, this means that there are 2 possible rulings. 1. that DC did improperly banned handguns. If this is the case, the issue is most likely over, handguns are constitutionally protected. (unless they narrow down the issue to a specific fact perular to DC) Or,2. DC did exercise proper authority in banning handguns, in which case, other states and municipalities will be free, but not required, to follow DC's example. If this is the case, the handgun ownership issues will be fought at the state or local level.

These are just my opinions, and of course, SCOTUS is free to disregard them.


Return to “Politics Etc.”