SC2

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Surprised there isn't a topic about this already. I finally broke down and bought it a couple days ago. After messing around with the campaign and some 1v1 matches I have to say it lives up to the original's feel quite well. It's prettier, more complex, more competitive, and more involving than the original. The storyline is kinda "Meh" compared with SC/BW but the continuation of the story works decently. There is a main character this time (Raynor) rather than you (The "Commander").
Working through the campaign you can unlock upgrades and units based on protoss or zerg research points and can also buy upgrades with credits you receive from missions. You also choose which missions to complete and each mission (At least in the beginning) unlocks a new unit. Which, if you are playing on Hard or Insane, makes choosing missions kinda like picking which level to beat first in Megaman 2. Easy or normal it doesn't really matter which route you go because it's so damn easy. You also get access to protoss missions through a "memory crystal" 1/4 through the campaign which plays through the eyes of Zeratul. Haven't played any Zerg yet...maybe later?

Of course, using strategies that worked well in sc1 will get you stomped though a lot of the newer strategies are just evolutions from [Build X at Y time, mass Z units and attack at F]. Rushing is still there in abundance though. Right now Terran seems to be the most successful race with more flexibility than the other races.

I'll have more to say once I spend more time with it.
Anyone wanna do some 2v2? My sn is BlueSun

[MinisterofDOOM]

There is a main character this time (Raynor) rather than you (The "Commander").

That's C&C. In SC and BW the player actually takes on numerous different roles. Different commanders, executors, and cerebrates over the course of the game.

I've almost posted about this a few times over the last few weeks, but keep ending up with rambling million-word posts and tossing them out. I finished singleplayer a while ago and have been screwing around in normal and hard vs AI to get more familiar with the multiplayer aspects of all 3 races (Terran in multiplayer is completely different than Terran in singleplayer---WHY CAN'T I HAVE GOLIATHS!?!?!?!!?!?)

I really enjoyed the singleplayer upgrades and research progression. Most of the time there was a clear-cut "right" choice for me that suited my playstyle, but I could easily see all choices appealing to someone, somewhere--there are no "trash" upgrades that exist only to use up points before you get to the good stuff.

The story was definitely meh, and poorly paced. Even ignoring the side-missions, which delay progression of the main storyline, the pacing is basically nonexistent. Honestly, the structure of Wings of Liberty reminded me of Halo 2. I won't give away anything big, but SC2 pulls the same garbage H2 did. You spend the whole game talking about big story events, looking forward to doing this or fighting here...and none of it ever happens. The game ENDS where the storyline climaxes, leaving you with ZERO feeling of resolution, despite the supposed-to-be-dramatic ending cinematic. The final mission of the game should have been the middle. Very unsatisfying, and with Heart of the Swarm a long way off, we're not going to see any resolution on that front for some time.
Basically, Blizzard shot themselves in the foot, story-wise. The ending to WoL was so underwhelming it kind of killed my enthusiasm to go back through the game on "hard." Sure, I'm having fun with multiplayer, but I think Blizzard could have done a better job of keeping the excitement levels up between expansions...and they're going to NEED to do that if they want to keep people interested in a game that's going to take multiple years to experience in total.

The Protoss missiosn were definitely my favorite part of the singleplayer storyline. Not because they were notably more interesting from a design standpoint, but because nearly all of my favorite SC heroes are 'Toss. I was sort of disappointed when I heard that SC2 would be Terran-only in singleplayer, and getting to command Artanis and Zeratul again was right up my alley.

Mission DESIGN is definitely the strongpoint of the singleplayer game here. I still can't decide if Blizzard wants us to take the story seriously, or is merely using it as an excuse to build armies. But it doesn't really matter, because every single mission in Wings of Liberty offers something unique. This isn't Starcraft or Brood War where every mission is basically a "normal" difficulty vs AI match with a couple of added objectives.
There are unique things happening in the missions, with a wide variety of objectives to be achieved. In one mission, you're escorting colonists while defending your base. In another, you're trying to race another faction to collecting a set sum to buy the favor of a mercenary (and you can sabotage their efforts while expanding and defending your own). One mission felt like it might have fallen right out of Westwood Studios' old playbook and had you biding your time and assaulting enemy transport caravans.
By far the most "interesting" mission, though, was the zombie defense mission. You plop down on a terran colony that has been thoroughly infested. The catch is that infested Terrans are vulnerable to UV, and the mission has a day/night cycle. So you defend during the day, then attack at night, then make sure your defenses are still in order when night rolls back around. It's a lot of fun, very well paced, and I honestly could have played that mission for hours upon hours without getting bored.

It SUCKS that the Protoss expansion will come last. Especially considering the details revealed by Zeratul in the Wings of Liberty Protoss subcampaign.

I also hear rumors that Heart of the Swarm is going to be hero-based and RPG-like, which really, REALLY puts me off. I hated Warcraft III for exactly that reason. When I buy an RTS I want to play a f*** RTS, not some dumbed-down party-based RPG with lite base building elements. As much as I STILL love WCII, I have never finished WCIII or Frozen Throne, despite having owned both since they were new. Because hero/RPG-based gameplay in an RTS gets boring in a hurry.

Oh, and there are no Zerg missions, oddly. Which is kind of dumb, because Zerg has changed in some significant ways that you can only discover by trial and error in multiplayer. Queens, crawlers, creep tumors, and overlords/overseers are never explained at all, anywhere, so you come into your first Zerg matches partly blind.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Well...I meant you were always that faceless entity in SC. I agree on all points. I was thoroughly confused when I did my first skirmish and couldn't build medics or goliaths. I think they did that for balance maybe ?(MMM rush would be even more devestating) Or perhaps those units will be unlocked during the expansions?

The zombie defense one is also my favorite so far. My least favorite is the terrazine gas...freaking impossible on hard. Only missions I've had to set the difficulty down so far.
WHat's your sn MoD.

The A.I. is also something amazing. Set them on hard or above and they do s*** like drop roaches in your mineral line, get collosi in 4 minutes, etc. I've yet to beat them on harder with terran. I think they cheat:P

It's also sad that there is already a DoTA clone up and running...I give it 2 months before every single custom game listed is "DOTA BL NN!!!!!" Which is sad because I'm interested in what people are starting to do with RPG style maps and TD levels with the new editor.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I think they did that for balance maybe ?(MMM rush would be even more devestating) Or perhaps those units will be unlocked during the expansions?

They won't appear in multiplayer at all to my knowledge. Blizzard took advantage of the lack of need for perfect balance in multiplayer to make use of some of the other units that didn't work out in multiplayer. The unit lineup was constantly changing during the beta as they did focused balance testing and such. A few of the popular units that weren't working in multiplayer were fit into the campaign mode instead.

WHat's your sn MoD.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/354 ... eMinister/
I still have yet to play any legitimate multiplayer games. I still don't feel like I'm familiar enough with toss or zerg to do well against anything but the AI.

The A.I. is also something amazing. Set them on hard or above and they do s*** like drop roaches in your mineral line, get collosi in 4 minutes, etc. I've yet to beat them on harder with terran. I think they cheat:P

I've actually had the opposite experience. In fact I was just complaining about this with a friend. The AI doesn't act anything like a human on hard or lower, and is very predictable. They just rush you a lot. But they do so predictably, and in the same spot every time. I find it frustrating because I want to hone my multiplayer skills but the AI doesn't play like a human. They don't even attempt to circumvent base defenses, only take linear easy paths, and don't protect their base expansions. If you throw up a few defensive structures at your main base entrance, you're set. You don't need aerial defenses around the base itself, because AI will never bother to find a safe path around your initial defenses. A human would use transports or other tactics to flank your defenses and take your base the easy way. I have NEVER had the AI do this. It's the same fight every time, the only thing that changes is how often the AI throws the pointless assaults at you.

I guess I need to try the two hardest modes, but the frustration I run into there is AI behavior balance. Getting attacked by Hydras when all I've got are zealots sucks. I'd like to see something ELSE change in AI behavior other than bigger dumb rushes. How about a difficulty level where the AI moves at my pace but actually STRATEGIZES? That's the only way to test my OWN strategies. And I don't want to "experiment" in real games where I can be sure whoever I'm playing already knows more than I do about what we're both doing.

It just feels like vs AI games only go one of two ways: either I get slaughtered in the first 5 minutes, or I completely dominate the map and demolish the AI. There's no in between. I've never had a close match with the AI.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Hmm your experience may indeed vary. I used easy to familiarize myself with the units, Normal to practice build orders, and harder to refine strategies. I've so far won all 4 my league placement games by blocking the ramp, pumping marines and marauders, two tanks with siege, and 3 medivacs. I'm not familiar at all with zerg and I still rolled them both. Once you get a good build order rushes come up short no matter how fast they get their lings to you.
You can practice against real folks with custom games...they don't count against your record.

[Hijacker]

I"ve had the hard mode AI circumvent main defense before. It didn't do any transport drops, but it will attack a rubble block before it will come after your main defenses. I've also noticed in watching the post-game build order, the hard AI will build extra barracks before it will start building troops. If you are a fast builder and can get your first troop up in around the 2m30s mark, you can rush with usually a few troops and devastate the AI's base.

As for the single player campaign, I enjoyed it. And this is coming from someone who thinks Halo was one of the worst inventions ever created :p I will say that Chris Metzen has been quickly losing any kind of style points hese past few years with some bad writing choices and horrific retconning. And while I will admit that WoL could have had a better story, I've seen worse. The ending was meant to be a cliffhanger, so I'll give some leeway there. I just dislike the standard Blizzard wait schedule.

As for getting to learn the different races, try out the challenge modes. I have yet to play them, but the developers said they added them in to allow people to learn some of the new tactics and specifics of the races.

And as for old strats not working: my build order for Terran is still functioning and working. The only snag I run into is that I have to produce a star port now to get medics, so I get put behind having a decent marine expeditionary force.

[bigbadberry3]

Nu uh, they better not release another RPG before D3.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

And as for old strats not working: my build order for Terran is still functioning and working. The only snag I run into is that I have to produce a star port now to get medics, so I get put behind having a decent marine expeditionary force.

I should have included : "Besides Terran". Cuz all they need to do is Bioball MMM and they can take on any t1 or t2 unit.
Also, I think the main strength of the campaign is the mission design...the story was kinda in the background. Needed more epic Blizzard cutscenes too. Though the fight with Tychus was pretty good

I just finished my placement matches yesterday. Won 4-1. So I get placed in Platinum and proceed to get walked on 4 games in a row. I mean they were good games, but damn some of those people CHEAT.
I need a partner for 2v2...anyone?

[MinisterofDOOM]

The ending was meant to be a cliffhanger, so I'll give some leeway there. I just dislike the standard Blizzard wait schedule.

It's not the cliffhanger that kills me. It's the fact that the cliffhanger was really the only bit of actual PROGRESSION to the whole of the story across all 26 missions. I loved PLAYING every mission, but story wise all but the last level and the Zeratul memories were pointless.

As for getting to learn the different races, try out the challenge modes. I have yet to play them, but the developers said they added them in to allow people to learn some of the new tactics and specifics of the races.

The challenge modes are a lot of fun. But they still don't explain things like creep tumors. Still had to figure that out on your own. Like you said, the challenge modes are all about TACTICS. Base management is left to you to figure out on your own.

And as for old strats not working: my build order for Terran is still functioning and working. The only snag I run into is that I have to produce a star port now to get medics, so I get put behind having a decent marine expeditionary force.

My old build order is DEAD. No goliaths, no bats, no medics. Even the bunker slot upgrade at the engineering bay changes things up because of the expanded defensive options it offers after tier 1 (since you can fit more varied combos in your bunkers).

[Hijacker]

Early game terran, I generally stack 2 marines and a marauder into a bunker. I rarely drop the resources on the upgrade for space since by that point I'm busy teching up. As for your old build order, the viking is probably your best bet for a goliath replacement, but they always feel very weak. I replaced bats with marauders in my order since the marauder occupies the bat's old tech spot. Plus with the slowing upgrade, my marines get a chance to deal some decent damage before getting into melee range.

I miss the old medics. The new medi-vac is ok, but it's clunky, and often it will stop following units. Plus you can't easily click it to follow, you have to attack move, otherwise it just picks up the unit.

As for base management, I had to experiment, but I had my old game start build to fall back on, and it seemed to work the best. I tried building a bit different during beta based on what some friends said, but it didn't work out so well. I had Marenta just load up a ton of vs AI matches and had her work on base management for a ton of matches. Zerg was hit the worst in the overhaul I think. I had no problem finding a groove with toss as I was able to get zealots into a medium AI base before it had its first troop built.

[MinisterofDOOM]

As for your old build order, the viking is probably your best bet for a goliath replacement, but they always feel very weak. I replaced bats with marauders in my order since the marauder occupies the bat's old tech spot. Plus with the slowing upgrade, my marines get a chance to deal some decent damage before getting into melee range.

Vikings suck. Tranformation takes forever and they can't attack while changing, so they're hard to micro well enough to use as a real goliath replacement.
Marauders, with slowing, are an okay alternative to bats, but they don't chew through zerglings like the bat did or the Hellion does.

I miss the old medics. The new medi-vac is ok, but it's clunky, and often it will stop following units. Plus you can't easily click it to follow, you have to attack move, otherwise it just picks up the unit.

I definitely agree. Auto-cast healing isn't as streamlined as I'd hoped. And making the medivac an air unit means you can no longer use infantry to bypass air defenses unless you leave your healers behind.

As for base management, I had to experiment, but I had my old game start build to fall back on, and it seemed to work the best. I tried building a bit different during beta based on what some friends said, but it didn't work out so well. I had Marenta just load up a ton of vs AI matches and had her work on base management for a ton of matches. Zerg was hit the worst in the overhaul I think. I had no problem finding a groove with toss as I was able to get zealots into a medium AI base before it had its first troop built.

Yeah, I'm the same way. I always hit sort of a "dead spot" in my Zerg build order where I'm waiting for resources (usually either control or vespene) before I can finally crank out some Hydras. And since roaches need the tunneling claws upgrade for superfast healing, they're not really that useful at that point...and spending vespene on tunneling claws means I have to wait that much longer to get hydras out. And that's when the marauders or stalkers show up and I'm boned.

[bigbadberry3]

I haven't logged a lot of SC2 hours (still boycotting but I'll use my friends), but it seems that Z is the least played as it is so weak? Zergling rush no longer useful as harvesters killing zerglings no longer requires any skill at all. The rest of Z, excluding brood lords, seem to be weak, and Z expansion also seems much slower which leaves it underpowered. Thoughts?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Brood lords are evil unless you have hellions or something else that can counter the broodlings in a hurry. And it can toss broodlings from outside the range of even upgraded missile turrets. That, combined with the effectiveness of broodlings en masse against structures, makes it a fantastic aerial siege unit.

I agree that zerg expansion can be slow. I think it's ridiculous that you have to wait until tier 2 to get the produce creep ability for overlords. It is, admittedly, less a permanent base expansion ability and more a tool for establishing forward positions on the battlefield, but by the time I've got a lair somewhere, I've probably also got a new hive off at another point, providing additional creep without bothering with overlords or queens. But getting overlords to base-entrance chokepoints early on to support crawlers can mean the difference between survival and defeat in the early game.

Pylons are much simpler and less involved, since you're usually cranking out more to keep up with supply than you actually need for building placement.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Judging by the official forum threads, TvZ seems to be the worst as far as balance goes. It's just that terran is so damn flexible and has so many hard counters for zerg. TvP is a little more evenly matched but throw ghosts into the mix with EMP and ANYTHING toss throws against them is crippled right off the bat. MMMG>anything toss can come up with. High templars might be able to get off a storm before they get EMPed, and what damage it does will quickly be healed. Collosi get massacred by Marauders. Only thing I've seen work against that are carriers, and that's assuming the terran player neglected to get vikings. Lots of crying for a balance patch...

[zer0c123]

I see a lot of people complaining that the zerg is difficult to play. They said that about terran back in sc1 in the early days. For a time it was believed that terran was the worst race to play in a tournament. It just takes time for people to figure good tactics with a certain race. Some of the tactics for zerg from sc1 don't work anymore. I really miss the deflier unit, because darkswarm was a big problem solver late in the game. If the deflier was available in sc2, terran would get raped because they lack a low tier melee unit. One thing I notice is that you had to mange the creep now. Your units get a benefit early in the game from the creep until you can get the upper tier upgrades.

I also agree that the AI is pretty predictable and behaves the same as sc1 (i haven't tried hard yet). I don't believe I ever had to build an anti air structure around a mineral line for air defense. It's kind like following the idea of " If you build it, they will come." If I build a missile turrent around my minerals and the enemy sees it, the enemy will constantly harass it until destroyed. If i build nothing, then no air units ever come to my mineral line.

I really hate the fact that blizzard broke this game into 3 games, but it's the only way to earn a profit. That means we will have to buy the next 2 expansions in order to play online with the add-ons. I'm pretty sure we have to buy the next 2 expansions, because we had to do that with brood wars.

The one thing that annoyed me about this game is that you have to be connected to the internet to play single player. I didn't have internet where I was when I bought the game, but I went to the closest cafe with wifi. Therefore I was able to install the game; however, once I got home it didn't allow me to play single player. The game is set up so that once you log onto battle.net, your game will be authorized for 30 days to play offline, which will reset the next time you log back on. Well the option is bugged and doesn't work for the majority of people with a legit copy. I don't blame blizzard for using this tactic to curve piracy, but it obviously didn't work. This game was hacked the first day it got released, and is what I did to get the single player working until I got back from my trip.

Yea the box says broadband required, but I find that misleading. All my other games print specifically on the box regarding what the broadband is for, like Multiplayer: Broadband required or Online: Broadband required. Why would you need offline mode? Not everyone can be near a wifi spot 24/7.

[bigbadberry3]

Completely agree with the internet connection. My DSL is spotty at best so it's not worth the aggravation for me. I'm still upset and no LAN which is actually why I haven't bought the game yet. But back to the game play....

Units that were broken in SC1 were the:

Defiler
Vessel
H Templar

In my limited exposure to playing (although I have watched a good number of hours on TL), HT's are weak especially when transformed into archons, infestors aren't horrible but really are only useful late game, where as the vessel replacement overpowering.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

HT's are EXTREMELY useful mid-late game against Zerg and non-ghost terran armies. Other than collosi they are the only real option against roaches. Archons are a waste of supply after they removed their splash.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Epic, Hilarious Match
Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEV9niTm ... re=channel

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aLBqeKd ... re=channel

Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_w7sh6 ... re=channel

Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOY2ve7z ... re=channel

[MinisterofDOOM]

I've been playing around with oddball things in SC2. I discovered there's an achievement for building a Zealot when playing as Zerg. I got it when playing around with the Infestor's Neural Parasite ability (which mind-controls an enemy unit for a limited amount of time). I mind-controlled a probe, then quickly warped in a Nexus before losing it. My first Nexus was destroyed by an Immortal, but the second attempt was successful and I was able to build up a full base for both races.

Lemme tell you this:
Mothership + Brood Lords + Corruptors = ULTIMATE EVIL DOOM OF DOOM.
Brood Lords easily outrange photon cannons, and once the enemy detectors are down those cloaked Broodlings are a special kind of nasty. And Corruptors are tough enough as it is. Corruptors you can't see is just mean.

After getting Zerglot, I decided to try for the same thing with a Terran enemy. The problem with that is Neural Parasite's effects only last 15 seconds, where it takes 100 seconds of worker activity to complete a Command Center. The Protoss Warp-In structure setup means that wasn't a problem for the nexus. You just grab a worker and drop the building. With Terran you need it to survive for 7 durations worth of Neural Parasite.

If you play vs a Very Easy AI enemy and tech straight to Infestors, this is cake, especially if you keep a mass of Lings on hand to "neuter" the enemy base by ensuring they can't keep production structures up.

Some things worth noting:
--Medivacs can heal zerg Air units.
--Still can't put Zerg units in Bunkers (highly disappointing...imagine Hydras in a bunker!)
--Supply/Control/Psi are interchangeable. Overlords, Supply Depots, Pylons, Extra Supplies, and starting structures all contribute to the same supply pool. And of course the cap is still 200.
--Doesn't matter which Gas structure you're using, all races' workers can harvest from it.
--Upgrades are race-specific. You can't double up on armor/damage upgrades for units, Terran structure armor doesn't benefit Zerg, etc.
--You CAN Chrono Boost any building, regardless of race.
--The "Voice" for your stuff ("Spawn More Overlords" "The Hive Cluster is Under Attack") is the same for all your stuff, regardless of race. Terran Upgrades still trigger "Evolution Complete" and Protoss buildings still get "The Hive Cluster is Under Attack".