S14 and S13 as road course cars

[turtl631]

For anybody who has had experience with HPDEs, etc in an S chassis car, care to share what you feel are the strengths and weaknesses? I'd just like to see a general discussion about the merits of S chassis cars on the track. I'm going to be getting another S14 within the year and I plan to set it up with a focus on road courses. I'll do some autoX, drift, maybe a few drag runs, but the main focus will surely be track. S14 seems like it will be a good combo of price, parts availability, reliability, and RWD, and much nicer as a daily than an S13. One thing I'm a little worried about is just information/community; very few people run 240s on road courses it seems. I see many dedicated drifters and draggers, and a handful of autocross guys, but not too many serious track enthusiasts. I know Nismo Freak had his s14 set up pretty hardcore for road courses, but I don't recall it ever really working. There are some guys on the other forums (and maybe here too..._Def_ with the s13 FB comes to mind) who track their cars, and I know orion tracks his s14 regularly. Other than that though, there don't seem to be too many hardcore guys out there. I see that as the main drawback to a 240 versus say, a EF or EG civic hatch, or a miata: they have so much track support that its easy to find a formula for going fast in a safe/fun manner. Any thoughts?

[ForsakenTH]

i dont have a lot of experience but i felt my Zenki S14 did a good job up at nelson ledges in OH. for the most part my car is stock. It stuck in the corners nicely but in the rain you have to watch it because the rear likes to come around. even if your on a wet line it still gets a little lose. i think it was gripping better then a lot of other cars though in the rain.

as far as the S13, the only thing i have heard is you want to go with the coupe cause there is less weight due to less windows. just what i heard from my instructor who drives a S13

[91rs13]

Well Due to some technical issues, I only got in a few laps my last time out on the track ( first time with my S-13 with CA18det) --but it felt great.

I go back to Watkins Glen Aug 18th, with the ZCCA National Convention --I hope I can tell you more then.

My first impressions are the car will be a much better Track car than an AutoX car. But my last regular track car was an old 510 race car --so having a turbo and more"modern" suspension could be clouding my perception.

FYI --I went through and replaced all bushings, shocks (Koni Yellow adjustable), Sway bars and springs ( Whiteline) prior to the motor swap--so the car should handle well.

BTW --For IT Racing, the s13 Coupe is supposed to be about 80 lbs lighter.

[nismofly]

^^^ are you going to be at the auto mall in syracuse during the convention?

i plan on heading up there

[InsanityInc]

240s are very popular for road courses, and they can handle extremely well with minor suspension tuning.

[GhostDriver]

I'll be totally honest and say that the S13 or 240SX isn't the best choice for a strict track car but it's a pretty damn platform for getting to learn the basics. As you get more seat time and experience you'll be able to progess with it by upgrading it to your needs.BTw, Orion's car is a badass...I've seen it in action.
Modified by GhostDriver at 9:59 PM 8/9/2005

[turtl631]

Cool, I'd like to do some track days with him if he ever comes up to Road Atlanta. I agree that an S chassis car isn't the best option ever for a track car, but for a street/track car and for learning, it seems like a good way to go. The main problems I see with it are weight, chassis strength/rigidity, and mac struts in front.

[nismofly]

make sure youre running at least falken azenzis when you go, pretty much any other tire youre going to have big problems with

the azenzis youll at least get a ways before they start to go away...but also dont plan on driving home on them, or the tires you run regardless

[turtl631]

I'm gonna run Kumho MX when I'm getting started for their heat resistance and price. _Def_ and orion also run them, so I figure they'll be fine for my first couple of track days.

[USsil80]

i might agree that the 240 is getting a little old in the suspension area.. but is that the only reason people are saying that the 240 isn't a great track car... you can get the wieght down to 2500-2600lb with the driver.. so are there really any other down falls to it...

[GhostDriver]

so are there really any other down falls to it...

MacPherson struts<dual wishbone.

[Bubba1]

Iused to run my old stock S13 regularly at HPDE's. Great fun. That stuff that instructor said about coupe versus hatch is a bunch of crap. They peform/handle the same.As a road course car, the 240sx is a wonderful forgiving car that's in dire need of power. My friends used to jokingly call mine a "rolling chicane"240's fare better at flatter tracks. At hilly tracks, you'll very quickly discover the lack of torque and lack of a turbo charger.

You'll also find 240's understeer quite a bit as you approach their limit, but its wonderful suspension makes it very easy to compensate.

The power band is between 3500 and 5500 rpm, so I found myself paying more close attention to the rev's than in my 240 than in other cars that have more torque. Some might call it extra work, I found it entertaining.

As with any underpowered car, there is no more satisfying feeling than chasing down a high horsepower sports car in a 140 hp japanese sporty coupe with all season radials. Especially when done on the main straight in front of witnesses

A few tips for using a stock 240 at an HPDE.

1. While a 240's seats are fine for the street, you'll find they won't hold you as well on the track. Unless you upgrade your belts or seats, you might consider a pair of $20 torso harness's that go around the seat back. many autocrossers use them.

2. upgrade your brake fluid to DOT4. (less likely to boil on you)

3. Watch your temperature gauge closely if you have a stock radiator. Remember a 240 has a pickup truck motor, not a race motor. So if you run it at 4K+ rpm for sustained periods, that needle will creep up fast especially on smaller tracks. Overheating far from home is not fun.

4. Your factory speed limiter is set at 118mph. If you hit on a straightaway hold on because you'll slow down very abruptly. The limiter is not a good thing to test if someone is following you closely.

5. Enjoy.

[InsanityInc]

MacPherson struts<dual wishbone.

Well, first off, double wishbones are not the end all of suspension design. Multilink is better, as it allows completely independent adjustability of all suspension parameters. Not to mention that's the only meaningful difference between straight up struts, DW and ML suspensions: adjustability. You can still run a track car just fine with front MP struts. Look at the number of 510 racecars doing extremely well.

[91rs13]

^^^ are you going to be at the auto mall in syracuse during the convention?

i plan on heading up there

I actually have to go to Syracuse for a Chrysler Internet thing on Wed, so I will probably try to see what they have going on in the afternoon for the convention. I know the AutoX is Friday, and one of the organizers "suggested" I might be able to get my car in it. So , I might be there. Look for a Red 240--same color as yours ( are 50% of the s13's Red--It seems like they are)

DJ

[turtl631]

Hehe, yea, tons of red s13 FBs out there!

Mac struts might not be the best setup, chosen mostly for cost/packaging reasons, but they're featured on TONS of cars that handle great (WRX, Evo, etc). I'm pretty sure there are differences besides adjustability between different suspension designs; IIRC double wishbones tend to have superior camber curves to Mac struts, Mac struts respond poorly to lowering with travel issues, etc. Rear multilink setup is quite cool though, thank you to Nissan for that.

I'm going to get around that underpowered thing with a stock block turbo KA setup similar to Orion's, so I should have more than enough power to keep up. I think its gonna be a lot of fun

[Bubba1]

Hehe, yea, tons of red s13 FBs out there!

Mac struts might not be the best setup, chosen mostly for cost/packaging reasons, but they're featured on TONS of cars that handle great (WRX, Evo, etc). I'm pretty sure there are differences besides adjustability between different suspension designs; IIRC double wishbones tend to have superior camber curves to Mac struts, Mac struts respond poorly to lowering with travel issues, etc. Rear multilink setup is quite cool though, thank you to Nissan for that.

I'm going to get around that underpowered thing with a stock block turbo KA setup similar to Orion's, so I should have more than enough power to keep up. I think its gonna be a lot of fun

FYI: Audi Club HPDE 11/19-20 (Sat/Sun) VIRginia Int'l Raceway. Danville VA,(at NC border near Danville). Very reachable from Georgia. Owning an Audi is not required. You oughta check it out... I'll be there.

[turtl631]

Sounds cool, unfortunately (or not) I'll be in Costa Rica at the time for study abroad. I actually won't even have another S14 til spring, but I hope to have it in good enough shape to try an HPDE by next summer or fall. A friend of mine from school who's also on NICO will probably be starting in HPDEs at the same time, we'll definitely keep an eye out for any other Nissans. Maybe even rock a NICO sticker at events, lol

[91rs13]

FYI: Audi Club HPDE 11/19-20 (Sat/Sun) VIRginia Int'l Raceway. Danville VA,(at NC border near Danville). Very reachable from Georgia. Owning an Audi is not required. You oughta check it out... I'll be there.

Can you post a link to this event --or e-mail me at [email protected] have a weeks vacation to burn and really want to go to VIR.

[Bubba1]

Can you post a link to this event --or e-mail me at [email protected] have a weeks vacation to burn and really want to go to VIR.

here's the link to the VIR event.

http://www.audiclubna.org/chap...id=16

if that doesn't work, usehttp://www.audicarclubna.org click on chapters, then choose Potomac

VIR is literally a country club with a world class race track instead of a golf course. The only downside is it's a long drive from NY, but it's well worth the trip. I go there 2x per year.

If you can't wait until November to hit the track, the October HPDE atSummit Point is much closer to you. I posted the link to the summit point HPDE in the Regional Forums menu in a thread titled "mark your calendars.

Definitely need more Nissan folks representin'.

[s13sr20chris]

for the original post.

if your tracking your 240 i would start with the basics. get good shocks, tires, and a performance alignment. get yourself some good negative camber front and rear, 0 toe f/r or maybe just a hair of toe in, and just even up the caster up front.

i personally believe that alignment is the key to dirt cheap trackdays in a 240. also, keep the power down! i am looking to build an na ka for road racing as my sr is more than i am really qualified to race. i just hate the idea that i am holding back the car.

to go further, i am a firm believer that its more fun to drive a slow car(stock 240) fast then a fast car(motor mods) slow(relatively speaking).

[hannibal]

To the guys who road race, did you autoX first?

I'd like to get a 2nd 240sx (probably an S13) to autoX and eventually road race with. I met a guy named Steve from Philly that was setting up an S13 road race car. Ive been pretty interested since speaking with him.

Ive always thought that double wishbones were superior to struts, cause thats what F1 and Champ cars use...

[Bubba1]

[QUOTE=IWannaS15]To the guys who road race, did you autoX first?

Nope, did Skip Barber.

[turtl631]

Ive always thought that double wishbones were superior to struts, cause thats what F1 and Champ cars use...

They are. Struts however can be made to work well, that was my point in listing the cars that use them and handle well. I'd still rather have a multilink or double wishbone setup than struts in front, but I don't see many people complaining about how much the EVO VIII's handling is holding them back

[s13sr20chris]

porsche 911's all have struts. struts are fine if you can keep the suspension travel short. they have minimal losses to the multilink until you get into heavy roll or something like that.

[nismofly]

travel is good

roll is bad

[turtl631]

porsche 911's all have struts. struts are fine if you can keep the suspension travel short. they have minimal losses to the multilink until you get into heavy roll or something like that.

^^^what he said. I'd rather have the ability to lower my car without running into issues though. Look at the difference in lowering ability between cars like WRXs and B13 SERS, and ones like older Civics. Some funky things happen with struts if you try to lower much.

[InsanityInc]

^^^what he said. I'd rather have the ability to lower my car without running into issues though. Look at the difference in lowering ability between cars like WRXs and B13 SERS, and ones like older Civics. Some funky things happen with struts if you try to lower much.

Funky things happen with double wishbones as well, or really any suspension type for that matter. It's just far easier to adjust for the problem in a multilink or DW setup.

[s13sr20chris]

^^^what he said. I'd rather have the ability to lower my car without running into issues though. Look at the difference in lowering ability between cars like WRXs and B13 SERS, and ones like older Civics. Some funky things happen with struts if you try to lower much.

are we talking race car or road car? a race car does not need long travel. it can be nice but is not a necessity. look at those old hillclimb cars that used vw trailing arm suspensions(formula vee?). those things are incredible handling machines with JUNK suspension geometry. its similar to the incredible power engine builders are able to get out of the stupidest engine designs(pushrod, flathead, etc.). the trick is capitalizing on the strengths and minimizing weaknesses.

if you have a suspension setup that does not provide camber correction under roll or bound/rebound, what do you do? cut down on the roll and bound/rebound. basicly this means it has to be really stiffly sprung and swaybarred.

look at f1 cars. suspensions are optimal and they still have very short travel and very stiff spring/dampers.

friendly suggestion. dont get too wrapped up in minor setbacks. im not freaking out about my sr's stupid rocker arms.

[turtl631]

Lol, yea, this was more for just fun/discussion purposes. I'm not seriously concerned about the mac struts, as I'm sure I am incredibly far from them interfering with my ability to drive a car properly.

[drews240]

Hello all,

Newbie to the group but I will do my best. I run a slighly modified 90 s13 with a bore out and ported ka24e as a strict track car (trailer only) forged racing piston and ring kit, race cam, aluminum flywheel, racing clutch, all poly bushings and bigger torsion bars, tokico, cusco, tien and jic magic adjustable suspension stuff, q45 front calipers and machined rotors, stock rear calipers with KVR rotors, stainless brakelines, custom K&N intake, Jim Wolf computer, 8 point cage, front and rear upper strut bars, fluidyne cooling system, hotshot ceramic coated headers straight through to a 3" inlet performance can. We had a GT alignment done and use a set of motegi race lite 17" x 8" with Hankook zr1 r compound and for prictice sessions I use the Toyo ra-1 with Kosei 17" x 8" race rims.

This car is a great road racer, rear wheel all independant, quick and plenty of room for more quickness. If you have a solid one and it is your dream to road race it is a great car to do it in PERIOD!

Be wellDrew