s13sr20chris..intercooler theory...

[bangstanger]

is there a point at where the air temp is no longer really a factor in turbo charged applications. I.E. if there were a way to cool the air greatly below ambient air temps would there be a point where that would stop giving you gains...and if so / or not...is there an optimum temp you would want the incoming air to be at...For now assume this is a stock standard turbo 240 for any neccesary factors.

I ask because I am working on a silly idea and would like to know if its worth pursuing to fabrication...since I dont have any of the parts yet..lol..

thanks for any info ya got..

Carl

Actually I guess... to make it matter you would have to assume increased boost pressures....as all I have seen on stock would cancel any real gains...so with or without specific numbers for boost and turbo outlet temps do you think you can figure this out?
Modified by bangstanger at 6:45 PM 1/23/2005

[madbouncy]

Air will keep getting densier as it gets colder, well as far as you'll be dealing, I don't think you'd get it cold enough to take it out of the gas state. However, water is densiest at 4 degrees C, so the water vapor in the air will have something to do with it as well. So if you get too much water vapor in the air, then taking it below that temp will actually start to make the air less dense. However, the colder the air the less water it holds, so hopefully most of the water vapor would be out of the ar as it gets colder, which you'd have to be careful you don't end up getting it too cold and have a lot of condenstation inside your intercooler, if that's possible.

From what I know, as long as you can ignite the mixture, the colder the better. It's not so much a direct gain from the cold air as it is just that you get more of it in there. The colder you get the less worry about detonation there is, so you can run more boost on the same octane. How far below do you plan on taking it?

Somebody else will cmoe in that knows something, that should help you out more.

[navysnail]

you might try the engeneering forum too, as well as here

i figure, when you get to a certain point, your fuel isnt going to evaporate as easilly so you may start having problems with that to a poiint, although that would have to be really cold. also, i dont know when you would have problems with condensation, think of an air compressor, when it compresses it heats up, then when it cools, air will spray out the end of your air tool if you dont have a water filter. same idea would apply to an engine i would think...

[bangstanger]

With any luck I am looking to get ....at highway speeds around 50-60 degrees Fthat is just a guess since what I am working with is a little iffy...I understand I will have a turbo outlet temp somewhere between 170-370 or at least from what I have read...I am assuming around 15lbs of boost (sidenote..I understand the mechanicals and thats not what this post is about.. so no worries to durability or such yet.thanks..eg bottom end and all) I am also trying to account for the pressure drop that I will experience...hopefully not more than about 2-4 psi. thanks

[madbouncy]

The only thing I was thinking about the condensation would be if it stayed there, then say a few days later the temp drops and it freezes, not sure if that would do anything but getting any water that freezes in your hoses could really screw you over.

You'll be fine if you do that. I mean just think about winter. Your engine is taking in air that could be at 0 or even below 0. It'll just give you some extra power because of the extra air getting in, as long as your computer can compensate for the added fuel. I'd say go for it. Worse that might happen is your engine takes a tiny bit longer to heat up, but that's assuming you're boosting while your engine is cold, which I can't imagine would be good for it at the least.

[bangstanger]

well with that is there an optimum temp for fuel atomization versus air density

Imagine if on whatever turbo setup you have if you drop the air temp (accounting for pressure drop) wouldnt it be best as cold as possible ie dense...

I imagine I will have to make sure the fuel system can supply for it also huh...

[s13sr20chris]

fuel atomisation will not be a problem so much at high rpms. look at the race cars. they move the injectors back further into the intake manifold giving more time for the fuel to mix. this sucks the heat out of the air and gives a power boost.

i think if you can get intake temps at 50* then do it. you will make more power i assure you. air to water intercoolers are capable of this sort of thing and they make big power.

[bangstanger]

that is along the lines I was thinking..except that I wont be using water as my medium...

I am was about to shed my A/C equipment since I have a new daily driver and started thinking...scary huh.. well If I rig a setup where the evaporator acted like an intercooler with heavy modification...

I know I have gotten my A/C inside to blow at almost 40 out the vents....but it was also only cooling roughly 100 degree temps inside the car...not sure how cool it will be able to get the compressed air that I have read runs well above 100 coming from a turbo. The only other concern I have is over heating my a/c system...this is why I am looking at this possibility..

.. run a small intercooler up front then into my "set-up" before the TB

do you think I can keep the pressure up without causing too much lag...this is going to be an SCCA road course style racer so quick accel out of corners is more along the lines of what I am looking for.

and thanks for the input.

[s13sr20chris]

my friend i think you are looking for a free ride. i am all for finding one but i think the power used to turn the a/c compressor will kill any gains made by the temperature reduction.

[bangstanger]

Yeah .. I was kinda thinking that... my only arguement is that it runs strong around town as is now with the ac running...so I guess it would come down to the possible power gain vs the weight reduction and drag reduction....already runnin with the underdrive pulleys to try and help...

but from a strictly mechanical stand point if I get the charge temp down ..no matter what, it should give me the potential for more power correct?

[Scott McLellan]

Ummm, it's already been done before. I read about a new Ford Lightning concept truck that uses the a/c system for like 30 (i think) extra hp but only for like 30 seconds, then the a/c system has to recover. It is basically like a small reusable nos bottle:) Well, Ford designed this so I'm sure they new how to do it efficiently, but just the fact that they took the time to do it goes to show that it might be worth it for you. I'd say that you definately wouldn't be able to run it continuously or it would just suck power b/c the a/c system definately would be worked to try to keep up, but if it was a temporary thing like on the lightning, i'd say cool. The thing you have to remember though w/ the lightning is that after that 30 sec. of more power, the a/c system has to run for a while to catch up before it can be used again and that "recharge" time will suck power that doesn't return anything.

[bangstanger]

Really... I hadnt heard about the lightning.. I will definately have to look into that thanks Scott...do you know where to find tech info for it, etc?

But if it does work wouldnt that be cool.. hit you a/c button and go down that last straight away..lol...

I do wonder about a (pre) intercooler though if that would help any or not..does anyone know avg outlet temps for a decent intercooler. . maybe that would help my "ac intercooler" last a little longer?

[Scott McLellan]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/car...ID=14

This is all I could find...

[Scott McLellan]

:P

"As a result of this cool technology, the SVT Lighting concept can give its driver as much as 50 transient horsepower for short bursts of 30-45 seconds and regenerate within 2 minutes under normal driving conditions. While its effect is similar to that of an aftermarket nitrous oxide system, the SuperCooler is completely self-contained, environmentally friendly and regenerative. "

[bangstanger]

I guess I was just a little late in developement huh...thanks for the link Scott.. it was great.. now I just need to find out how to adapt my idea and their tech into my car..lol

I will keep ya posted on results..maybe a kit for the 240 could result? lol

[Scott McLellan]

Ya, I have thought of ideas that I thought were "new" to but soon found out that they were already invented. All it would take though is one good idea that nobody has thought of....hmmm. Definately keep me posted about your results! I'm sure if you searched long enough, you could come up with some technical info on this setup. And also, just because an idea was thought up doesn't mean that's the end. If you could refine the system or modify it enough to produce more power or cool something else or if you come up with another idea in the process of creating this system, well, whatever. I am a engineering student and this is the stuff I like