S13's track capability?

[Def]

Hey guys,

I'm looking to get a dedicated HPDE car in the future since the thought of wadding up my M3 makes me more than a little nervous. BTW - when I say track, I mean road course for all you drag racing fiends out there.

I've always loved Nissans, so I've really been looking at an S13 240SX.

Just have a few questions for the people that have really pushed their S13's:

1. How is the braking on these cars? I see alot of people upgrade to Z32 brakes. How cheaply could one do this via a junkyard and a little bit of patience? What size are the Z32 rotors, are they vented front and rear?

2. Are there any glaring problems with the S13 suspension design? Any bushings that fail under hard use, are they hard to change out? For instance, on my car, the rear trailing arm bushings can fail with heavy use and then rip the carrier out of the subframe. It costs about $2k to fix this! Needless to say, I couldn't deal with a repair of that cost on a car that isn't worth much more than that.

3. What is the widest set of wheels and tires you can fit in the fenderwells with slight rolling of the fenders? I'd probably use 16" wheels with something like Azenis at the beginning. Any chance you can fit something monsterous like a 16x8.5 or 16x9" wide wheel under the stock bodywork?

4. How light can you feasible get an S13 with minimal options by taking out things like backseat and spare, go to a lighter battery and any other "cheaper" ways to reduce weight. 2500-2600lbs sounds really nice if it's possible!

5. I'm really intrigued by the chance of an engine swap to bolster power down the road. I wouldn't immediately spring for more power when I got the car, because power is probably the last thing you really want to improve when out on the track(brakes and handling come way before that). Yet is there a chance one could do a CA18DET or SR20DET swap for ~$2k, or is that too little? I do all my work myself, so a drop-in swap of a 4 banger doesn't sound all that hard. Nothing a weekend and a case or two of beer can't get out of the way.

6. Last but not least, I'm 6'3" with a relatively long torso. How is headroom in these cars without a sunroof? How about headroom with an SA rated helmet? That would take away about 1.5" of headroom. I suppose I could try to get a fixed-back seat to save weight and get me closer to the floorboard, but is that even going to be a real tight fit?

Anything else you guys want to add, feel free.

RWD and light weight sounds awesome. I just need a fun car to do HPDEs with that isn't too expensive to mod and wouldn't make me want to kill myself if I managed to be stupid and wad it up into a wall, and an S13 sounds like it's the ticket!

Thanks in advance guys.

[C-Kwik]

The Z32 brakes give more fade resistance than anything else. You'll find better braking distances with better tires. Find an ABS model and that should give you plenty of stopping power. I believe the rear are vented, but few have done the rear swap.

There are no huge failure prone areas in the suspension. Tension rods up front havebeen known to leak, but is a rather easy fix. You options of stiffer bushings or spherical bushings. If it;s a track dedicated car, you might want to run a somewhat stiff suspension. The front strut suspension can be a cause for major understeer if the body rolls too much. You may want to dial in some negative camber as well to give a better contact patch. The rear suspension is pretty good from the factory. You can upgrade bushings for better response. If you add a lot more power though, you may want to go to stiffer sub-frame bushings as they can flex quite a bit and have a vague feeling under hard acceleration.

The rears should accomodate 9 inch wide wheels no problem. 10 inch wide wheels might even fit. The fronts should fit an 8 inch wide wheel with little issue. Larger wheels will start to require very tight offsets and may start to stick out.

Figure an S13 will weigh about 2700 lbs. 2500-2600 wouldn't be too difficult.

Motor swaps. Just depends. I've seen motors sell for less than $2K. But at that price, it might be hard to find a complete motor with low mileage that is in great condition. Patience is probably the key to finding a deal here.

The 240's are short on headroom. Try to avoid a car with a sunroof. And there is not much room to lower the seating position with an aftermarket seat. In fact, it's hard to even match the low height of the factory seats. A fixed seat with sidemounted rails would be the best option. Bottom mounted rails will likely lift the seat higher than stock. I'm 5'7" and i hit the roof of my S14 with my helmet on.

[XS042]

I am 6'-4" and own a 93 240sx SE fastback and I have no problems as far as head room even with helmet on. I use it for a daily driver and autox car.As far as the suspension goes, I'd replace the front tension rods. They have these giant liquid filled bushings that are full of gooey slop. There are plenty of inexpensive suspension camber adjustment parts available. The rear suspension shares a very similar design to the 300zx multilink and is excellent even in stock form.As far as motor swaps I would be very careful and research who you are buying from and their reputation. There are many scammers out there who will neglect to tell you the little details. I've heard there is someone selling sr20det on ebay that have no ECU, wiring harness, and intercooler but fail to mention that. I'd definitely try to see the what your buying in person as pictures are often decieving and not the picture of the engine being purchased.:pimp

[WingsNThangs]

I am 6'-4" and own a 93 240sx SE fastback and I have no problems as far as head room even with helmet on. I use it for a daily driver and autox car.

What kind of seats are in your car? Are they deep? My friend who is 6'5" is pretty cramped in my car.

[Def]

Thanks for the responses guys.

It's good to hear the S13 seems to have adequate headroom(do you have stock seats?).

I probably won't buy a 240SX for quite a while(maybe a year or more), but I like to form plans well in advance so I at least can budget out what to do and when. Hopefully by that time I'll actually be getting paid to be a glorified mathmatician(or you might know them as... engineers ).

It seems the only real issue I can see is with the brakes. What are the largest and cheapest rotors you can fit on the car? 97+ Q45 brakes? I understand the physics behind braking, and am not really concerned about the marginal increase in the lever arm or a small increase in the swept area of the pad(although both are nice to improve! ), but the mass of the rotor and how wide it is(for airflow) are key when out on the track and really hammering on the brakes. My M3 manages to work just fine with sticky street tires and Axxis Ultimates(~900*F fade temp) courtesy of its 12.4" 32mm thick rotors up front and 12.5" 26mm rotors out back(both vented. The car does weigh about 3100lbs without me in it though, and does only put out about 210rwhp.

So is there a low cost solution that can keep up with even the hardest track pounding on "moderate" track compounds, or are really insane pads like Hawk HT-10s or Blues needed on even street tires(like alot of Honda guys have to use when they make any decent amount of power with their puny brakes)? Or will I have to budget getting a bling-bling big brake kit?

As far as the engines, if I could get a decent powerband and eventually get about 250-280rwhp from a CA18DET that looks like an awesome engine due to its low price and bulletproof nature. An SR20DET has more cc's, but a much higher pricetag due to popularity. Bah...

Maybe I'll even be lucky and can get a car that's already modded. How much would an S13 with an SR20DET swap usually sell for? Probably just marginally more than a good-condition S13 with the stock KA24DE, or am I wrong?

Anyway, appreciate the responses guys. I've tried searching, but most the threads just repeat the same info over and over, and it's not quite what I'm looking for.

[96_S14_SE]

This doesnt really help but they have a fully race ready s14 in the latest sports car mag for a measly 50g's But it is a full race car with coustom engine chassis and the list goes on weighing in at a feather light 1850 lb min weight.

Best not forget to convert the hubs to 5 lug to ease install of large oem brakes. There are a few viable OEM brake options, but that depends on your budget, if buying new or used, and what size wheels you plan on running...

I would run the KA personally, with a nice forced induction setup. With the right buildup one could even squeeze a few more rpms out of it, but its not really needed. The main reason for keeping the KA (besides a love for it) is the raw availability abundance and low cost of replacement blocks... Downtime sucks if your motor is toast and your waiting for a new one, only to miss an event or two...

[Def]

HAH! I wish I had 50G's burning a hole in my pocket! But thanks for the info.

It seems like converting to a 5 lug setup is just too expensive to justify it. A competent machine shop could drill the rotors out for almost nothing. I always use OE blanks, so I could get 2 sets drilled to start out with and they'd probably last me a while.

I'd probably want either 15-16" wheels with the widest I could feasibly go front and rear(same size, don't want it staggered). Keeps things neutral, and you can rotate front to back. If I find myself overwhelming the rears, it seems it's very easy to step up another .5" or 1" in width back there.

As for going FI on the KA, not my cup of tea. The motor just isn't designed for it, and to do it correctly would make it easily more expensive than a ~250rwhp SR20 setup, plus you could still pop the block when really beating on it no matter how good your tuning is. I'd rather get a CA18DET or an SR20DET and then get some cams and a slightly upgraded turbo along with a few bolt-ons. Should pull strong up to redline and be pretty reliable.

Not to mention dropping some weight off the front!

[cosmo]

This doesnt really help but they have a fully race ready s14 in the latest sports car mag for a measly 50g's But it is a full race car with coustom engine chassis and the list goes on weighing in at a feather light 1850 lb min weight.

and what mag is this?

[Def]

and what mag is this?

Sports Car I think. The mag you get when you become a member of SCCA(Sports Car Club of America).

[96_S14_SE]

I said it was Sports Car magazine Basically all I read anymore is SCCA's Sports Car, and GRM or grass roots motorsports...

Pg 68, 4th column, 2nd entry, of the AUg 03' issue (been in there for a while actually) to be exact...

To hell with the rest of the mag's, but they are good for a laugh now and then.

Sorry about the OT...

[C-Kwik]

It seems the only real issue I can see is with the brakes. What are the largest and cheapest rotors you can fit on the car? 97+ Q45 brakes?

So is there a low cost solution that can keep up with even the hardest track pounding on "moderate" track compounds, or are really insane pads like Hawk HT-10s or Blues needed on even street tires(like alot of Honda guys have to use when they make any decent amount of power with their puny brakes)? Or will I have to budget getting a bling-bling big brake kit?

Most Nissan brakes use the same caliper mounting points as far as I know. Which leaves only the lug patterns and brake line fittings to deal with. I use Z32 brakes and the rotors are similar to the 95 and older Q45 rotors. 11" x 26 mm. Leter versions of Z32 brakes were available with 11" x 30mm rotors. Mne have not had any fade yet. High speed courses with a lot of high speed to low-speed braking zones may fade them a little, but with good pads, it shouldn't get out of hand.

Stock brakes are probably poor for any high speed tracks. It might handle the streets of willow ok, but SOW is more of a high speed autocross. Most braking areas are short and only one requires a long duration brake. I've seen stock ones work at SOW with no problems.

I'd just be on the safe side and upgrade to something larger.

[Def]

Are the 11"x30mm and 11"x26mm rotors commonly available as OE blanks? Like ~$40 a rotor or so? I figure a machine shop shouldn't charge more than $5 a rotor to drill to a 4x113.4mm bolt pattern(that is what S13s are right?).

So I'm guessing those brakes will fit under most 15" wheels right?

Are most 240SX owners going for 15 or 16" wheels? I figure I'd just use Azenis, and the 15 inchers(205/50-15) are really cheap and can still fit on 8 inch wide wheels just fine. The 215/45-16 Azenis are significantly more expensive, but I think a 16" inch wheel would just work better with the whole car. Finding a wheel in a diameter that small and a width that isn't $$$ is going to be a pain though.

[C-Kwik]

Haven't seen any blanks. Most just have them redrilled.

As far as fitment, 15 should fit, as long as the spokes clear. The backspacing of the wheel is usually the biggest problem.