Russia threatens Poland with nukes.

[rn79870]

The Iraq war was a necessity. I support it, both for US and Iraqi people. The war was done fabulously. Not because of President Bush, but the generals.

You've been talking to GW again. No one else would dare say that...

That's the situation we're in now. As soon as US pulls out of Iraq, Al Qaeda will take over and Russians will have excuse to come in, kick their asses and take over the country. Russians can always say that Al Qaeda in Iraq is contributing to Chechnyan rebels.

And risk being seen as another United States by the world?

Iran maybe sanctioned now, meaning they can't be Chinese, Russian allies. But as soon as US leaves Iraq, they will come to power in middle east and no one will stop them from dealing with the rest of the world. Nukes help too.

Do you have any idea what a large nuclear explosion does to the people, guilty and innocent alike. Not to mention the environment.

So not only US loses Iraq, they will lose the entire middle east.

Saudi Arabia ian't a small player in that region.

As for Poland, the war is as good as done. The only question is, how it will come out. Will it be a war of words and give them up for Russians or have a regional war and fight over them? Because Russians are prepared to go all the way on this. They did not put down 1,500 tanks next to Georgia for fun. That cost them tens of millions of dollars.

If the Russians were reminded that US is not so weak, they will attempt to reconsider the situation and try to focus again on their economy. They have been having Budget surplus since Putin got into power.If they see US blink, they will take the world one piece at a time. Putin is not going to haste like Hitler, he's a lot smarter.

I'd rather not go nose to nose with Russia. Do you have any idea what 1, just 1 Russian nuclear submarine with it's complement of missiles could do to US cities? You fail to understand that if you push a country hard enough, long enough, war becomes inevitable. Why not simply keep missiles out of Poland? Going to war with Russia would be like stomping on a rattlesnake barefooted. We'd squash the snake but we'd get a mighty painful, if not deadly bite the process.

[Cold_Zero]

My question is this, why do we need Anti Ballistic Missiles pointed at Russia in Eastern Europe? What does the United States gain from this? Is this an insurance plan for the future, just in case something changes in Russia? If that is the case why not park Missiles pointed at Pakistan, Iran, India and China? I know I would feel safer having ABMissiles pointed at Iran.bud

[Soravia]

Defence missiles point no where but up ward. They INTERCEPT ICBMs. Their own destruction power is very small. Russians saying Poland can't have interceptors is like saying Poland can't have an army to defend itself.

Everyone KNOWS Russia IS the reason Poland wants them. So do other ex-Soviet nations. They know what Russians CAN do and WILL DO. The Russians don't care about environment and crap. That's only for yuppie liberals. They'll do whatever they can to get what they want. If Russians cared about international view on them, they would not have started this war.

Only delusional people would think there are ANY liberal people in power in Russia at all. The ones in power are either Ex-KGB or their pawns.

Let's recite history again, just because Liberals have chronic Amnesia.

East and West Germany, Berlin wall.North and South Korea, Korean War.North and South Vietnam, Vietnam War.Afghanistan, Afghan War. These are just the big names Liberals see in movies. Stuff like Iran-Contra wars are things they don't know about, which leads to delusional ideas about talking with Iran without preconditions.

Russia and West are bound to be in conflict since that's the only direction for Russia to expand the power influence. China won't let them make a move to the East at all.

Cold war power map.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...0.png

[Cold_Zero]

I understand the concept of Air Defence and also SEAD and most of the other related topics.

I also understand that since there is no De Facto state of war between the two countries Poland and Russia or even the United States and Russia. And this can be construed as an act of aggression on the side of the West. If your neighbor parks an MBT in his lawn next to your house and you thought that the both of you were cool, would that start to raise questions about the relationship between you and your neighbor? It doesn't matter where the MBT's barrel is pointed, it's going to raise some serious questions with the Home Owners Association.

This reminds me of a great man and maybe the Russians have taken this stance.

Why the **** are you calling me liberal and what does that have to do with the price of Vodka in Poland? I think liberals are very capable of remembering history. But while we are on the topic, the Untied States can find the time to forget the transgression of Germany during WWII and Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, yet we can’t seem to get over the fact that the Cold War is over. Or maybe what you are saying is that it is NOT over and we never really “Won the Cold War without firing a shot.”

[Cold_Zero]

Also

http://www.france24.com/en/200...MONDEWarsaw and Washington signed a deal Wednesday to deploy part of a US missile shield in Poland, insisting the aim is to ward off Iranian attacks, despite deep Russian anger at the move.

So.... if this whole Missile Shield is about stopping Iranian Missiles from hitting Europe why not work with Israel and Turkey to deploy the shield south closer to the Iranian border? Or heck, work with Russia to put the Missile Defense Shield in Russia to help defend them.Call me confused, but Poland is no where near Iran.

[heliochrome85]

alas, there you go again.. you and your knowledge of geography....

[rn79870]

Vietnam? You forgot, we were there to save us from the evil communist who were planning on taking California as soon as they got Vietnam. Never mind that 90% of the south Vietnamese didn't give a tinkers hoot whether they were communist or not. In fact, they wanted to raise rice and feed their kids, and they could care less who was in power. There was a common joke at that time: For Sale, South Vietnamese M1, never fired, dropped only once. (when they ran like hell from their 1st. battle)

The evil communist took over south Vietnam and guess what, I haven't seen one invading army anywhere around here. I guess maybe the experts were wrong about that one too.

[Soravia]

Vietnamese didn't care, neither did the Koreans. But War was still war. Commies and Captialist don't go along like oil and water.

That's simple as that.

We could call this Cold War 2 now. The fact is, the conflicts are real and the intents behind them are strikingly obvious. There can be only one, at least for Mr. Putin. If events like these don't remind you of Hitler, I don't know what it reminds you of.

[heliochrome85]

i have read many posts by you and have acertained:1.) you seem to reference hitler/nazis alot, usually incorrectly

2.) you don't seem to understand how the world works

3.) also don't seem to read much about any of the topics you "discuss"

we have some serious experts on this forum, CZ--Military History, RN-Vietnam War, etc. in a fight between you and them, i suspect they will win.

BTW, the US and Russia are not in a cold war part two regardless of your beliefs. Russians require strong leaders and in that sense, Putin is just filling the role. Their crankyness is entirely understandable. This missile shield will fail, and is just a diversion from the real requirements for national security, being the active seeking of loose nuclear material and its proper containment. You wanna make sure we arent at risk of attack? make sure they dont get into the hands of terrorists by making sure the guy guarding the missile silo is paid a proper wage, rather than cents a day.

[rn79870]

Vietnamese didn't care, neither did the Koreans. But War was still war. Commies and Captialist don't go along like oil and water.

That's simple as that.

Actually, the Koreans did. They fought and fought hard. They did care who governed their country. ROK troops were, and are man for man, one of the best trained armies around. This is probably due to military service in Korea being regarded as a "Holy duty."

Soravia, we appreciate your desire to see only the best for the USA, but seriously, you need to open your eyes to the mistakes this country has made in the past and help keep the US from repeating the same errors in the future.

[Soravia]

Missile shield is a VERY good protection in face of something like Iranian and North Korean missiles, or for Poland, nukes from Russia. This is just a step toward having Poland build up its own military power. Without a nuke missile shield, no matter how strong Polish army is, it will be wiped out quickly by nukes if Russians want to attack Poland when the time comes.

With the Missile shield, Poland doesn't have to be a hostage for Russia anymore. Would anyone want their country to be held hostage as buffer zone and be kept from developing fully?

[Cold_Zero]

Call me crazy, but the justification for this Missile Defense Shield is to combat Ballistic Missiles from Rogue States. If the shield exists in Great Britain, Greenland, the United States and now Poland, what rogue states is this system going to protect against? Those damn pesky Polar Bears from the Artic? I always suspected them. To me it is awfully reminiscent of the DEWS (Distance Early Warning System) that we maintained during the Cold War in Alaska/Canada and the GIUK Gap.

Pakistan (which is kept in check with India and the US Military aid to fight terrorism), China and North Korea are going to launch their Missiles over the Pacific Ocean if they are going to target the United States. So why wasn't Japan tapped to host a site? Especially since the North Koreans seem keen on launching their test missiles over Sea of Japan and Japan. One of the reasons why the Japanese purchased 4 Arleigh Burke (Kongo) Class ships capable of deploying the RIM 161B (SM-3 block IA) against the types of missiles that the North Koreans were shooting over their home country. It should also be noted that the USS Mustin DDG-89 was rushed to Yokosuka (which is deployed as an Anti Ballistic Missile Destroyer) because of the North Korean missile tests. To be honest, Japan, Western Canada, Alaska and the Pacific Islands makes much more sense in deploying an Anti Ballistic Missile Shield.

The reason why? Because the US is not worried about missile attacks from rogue states, they are worried about missile attacks from Russia.bud

[Jager]

CZ, why should we sit back and twiddle thumbs when russia is making manuevers, even if we dont know exactly what or why they are doing them.

if poland (a nato ally) wants military hardware what right as a member of nato do we have to say no sorry we cant.

and why has no one considered that russia who was petitioning themselves to join nato years ago is now intensely afraid of nato.

something is going on, and while I agre a ring of anti ICBM sites is not the best way to start diplomacy, nor better relations, the russian government has over the past 15 years pulled farther and farther into a more isolationist world view, which has boosted their economy, but to do so then retaliate with incredible overkill in south otessia to defend russian people there, just steam rolling over any diplomatic steps themselves, i think they lose the right to be shocked when their former vassel states who still remember the horrors of communist control start getting antsy.

the US may be saber rattling at russia, and we can bemoan screwing stuff up over there, but lets all be honest with this last part.

Russia could have called in the UN, started a diplomatic outcry, brought in press, or even allowed refugees into russia. ie they could have negotiated or pulled global strings into making georgia give up real fast. their choice to use hard military tactics just means they lost any chance of the rest of the world wanting to discuss things with them. their actions precipitate our response.

they used MBTs, we negate their nukes and make them really uncomfortable.

no president in US history faced with defacto military response sits down and goes well, guess its time to be more diplomatic and negotiate, HELL NO. we may open channels but we are also covering our backsides.

[Cold_Zero]

CZ, why should we sit back and twiddle thumbs when russia is making manuevers, even if we dont know exactly what or why they are doing them.

Just to make it clear to everyone that we (like Russia) are pursuing a near same agenda. I want everyone to put away the old Cold War rhetoric and this bogus concept of America’s Divine Call to rule the world.

Quote »if poland (a nato ally) wants military hardware what right as a member of nato do we have to say no sorry we cant.

and why has no one considered that russia who was petitioning themselves to join nato years ago is now intensely afraid of nato. [/quote]Last night I was talking with my father a Retired Lieutenant Colonel who served in Germany during the Cold War and saw first hand what the Russians were capable of. He made the same point about Poland having the right to defend themselves. While your comment doesn’t fall on deaf ears, it should be pointed out that these missile stations will be manned by United States Military Personnel. Which means we will run the tracking systems and have our finger on the button if the need to deploy them ever arises. I guess my point is, if we are deploying this system to defend against rogue states, why not say what we mean and mean what we say? Because it looks like we are hiding something if these missiles are placed in line to defend against a Russian attack but say they are for rogue states like North Korea and Iran.

Quote »something is going on, and while I agre a ring of anti ICBM sites is not the best way to start diplomacy, nor better relations, the russian government has over the past 15 years pulled farther and farther into a more isolationist world view, which has boosted their economy, but to do so then retaliate with incredible overkill in south otessia to defend russian people there, just steam rolling over any diplomatic steps themselves, i think they lose the right to be shocked when their former vassel states who still remember the horrors of communist control start getting antsy.[/quote]I have to say, threatening a former ally with the use of Nuclear Weapons is totally uncalled for. While I can understand some of the dynamics that are probably going into the mentality of Russia, I can not understand the level of response that all this stuff is invoking. I totally understand why Kennedy mobilized our countries military in a preparation for an invasion and all out war against Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Because the Soviets and Cuba were going to park ICBMs off the coast of Florida and give the US Command 15 minutes to respond if they were ever deployed. This situation is different in that we are talking about Surface to Air Missiles targeted at ICBMs. But while we do not trust the Russians, make no mistake, at some level the Russians do not trust us, nor the West.

Quote »the US may be saber rattling at russia, and we can bemoan screwing stuff up over there, but lets all be honest with this last part.

Russia could have called in the UN, started a diplomatic outcry, brought in press, or even allowed refugees into russia. ie they could have negotiated or pulled global strings into making georgia give up real fast. their choice to use hard military tactics just means they lost any chance of the rest of the world wanting to discuss things with them. their actions precipitate our response.

they used MBTs, we negate their nukes and make them really uncomfortable.

no president in US history faced with defacto military response sits down and goes well, guess its time to be more diplomatic and negotiate, HELL NO. we may open channels but we are also covering our backsides.[/quote]I think Russia trusts the UN just about as much as we do. When common interests are served then we are all on board, when they don’t (like the case in Iraq with the Oil for Weapons/Cash… I mean Food Program) we go it alone. Russia could have conducted itself in a better way. Even the Russians that I know here at work say the same thing. But with this Georgian Conflict, measured response or not, when you have a country that attacks you, your Peace Keepers or your close allies, you totally remove their ability to do it again. I think most people in the United States understands that mentality.Bud