So I've spoken to a fair few knowledgeable people in the industry, and everybody is giving me a completely different bunch of advice as to what the correct procedure is for running my engine in.
Anyone here care to post their thoughts as to how I should run in my new rebuild to get the rings and bearings properly worn in?
Running in procedure
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kingkilburn
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Re: Running in procedure (Mettler)
Although I have never done it, in theory, the fast and hard method seems to make the most sense to me. If you want I can look up the article on it(an ex crew chief of super bikes wrote it, I believe).
Kylek
Kylek
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elwesso
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Re: Running in procedure (kingkilburn)
I wouldnt run it excessivly hard for the first few hundred miles, not because im concerned about engine wear just because I'd be nervous about something breaking... If you built your engine right its probably going to last a while and if you didnt its probably going to manifest itself quickly, regardless of how you drive it..
Basically I would go about 1000-2000km on the first oil change and then go balls to the walls after that.
Basically I would go about 1000-2000km on the first oil change and then go balls to the walls after that.
Re: Running in procedure (elwesso)
I've been trying to figure out what the best way to run mine in as well and really haven't found any consistent procedures. Everyone has their own opinion on what works best and it seems like everyones procedure contradicts everyone else's.
Really the main thing that I've gathered is that it's important to do an oil change right after you start it the first time. It makes sense to start it for the first time and let it reach operating temperature, shut it off and change the oil. Get all the initial chips out of the oil as well as the assembly lube.
I haven't decided what I'll do yet after that. Probably not do the HARD break-in like the one moto guy suggests, but load the engine at mid-rpms (up hills, etc.) for a few miles and change the oil again.
Really the main thing that I've gathered is that it's important to do an oil change right after you start it the first time. It makes sense to start it for the first time and let it reach operating temperature, shut it off and change the oil. Get all the initial chips out of the oil as well as the assembly lube.
I haven't decided what I'll do yet after that. Probably not do the HARD break-in like the one moto guy suggests, but load the engine at mid-rpms (up hills, etc.) for a few miles and change the oil again.
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SuperHatch
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Re: Running in procedure (Mettler)
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htmMettler wrote:So I've spoken to a fair few knowledgeable people in the industry, and everybody is giving me a completely different bunch of advice as to what the correct procedure is for running my engine in.
Anyone here care to post their thoughts as to how I should run in my new rebuild to get the rings and bearings properly worn in?
This is the "Fast and Hard" method that the people here are mentioning. I used this technique on a 4G63 I built. The motor built strong compression over the first 500 miles and had very little oil consumption. I ran piston-wall clearances as specified by the piston manufacturer and ran the mains and rods on the loose side of the factory tolerance.
As long as the motor is built "loose" I don't see a problem with fast and hard, as a matter of fact I'd recommend it for the same reasons this guys does. If it's a tighter motor, be more gentile with it.
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elwesso
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Re: Running in procedure (tmorgan4)
I always heard you wanted to wait on an oil change because the oil filter will just catch everything....tmorgan4 wrote:I've been trying to figure out what the best way to run mine in as well and really haven't found any consistent procedures. Everyone has their own opinion on what works best and it seems like everyones procedure contradicts everyone else's.
Really the main thing that I've gathered is that it's important to do an oil change right after you start it the first time. It makes sense to start it for the first time and let it reach operating temperature, shut it off and change the oil. Get all the initial chips out of the oil as well as the assembly lube.
I haven't decided what I'll do yet after that. Probably not do the HARD break-in like the one moto guy suggests, but load the engine at mid-rpms (up hills, etc.) for a few miles and change the oil again.
Re: Running in procedure (Mettler)
Everyone keep in mind;
Opinions are like @$$holes, Everybody has one.
So here's mine, run it hard. I've not had problems this way nor has anyone else I know. Of course I haven't compiled results from the various ways to break in an engine and measured central tendancy over time.
Opinions are like @$$holes, Everybody has one.
So here's mine, run it hard. I've not had problems this way nor has anyone else I know. Of course I haven't compiled results from the various ways to break in an engine and measured central tendancy over time.
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Mettler
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Hmmm, the problem with a hard run in is the strain you can place on big end bearings. It'd be great to achieve an awesome ring/bore wear in, but you do so at the risk of causing bottom end bearing issues.
I might go for a tentative hard run in, i.e. not rev above 5000rpm or so, but give it full throttle up to those revs in every gear.
It's gonna be hard because I've done the 45 crank swap and dunno if my ECU is automatically going to be sweet as with that.
I might go for a tentative hard run in, i.e. not rev above 5000rpm or so, but give it full throttle up to those revs in every gear.
It's gonna be hard because I've done the 45 crank swap and dunno if my ECU is automatically going to be sweet as with that.
I think your ecu should easily be able to compensate for the added cc's.
I have always heard to accelerate heavy but do not tach it up. Nice clean solid acceleration up to 4k for the first 500 with no prolonged highway usage. Basically city drive it somewhat harder than normal driving until you feel comfortable. Then and only then should you redline it and blow it up.
I have always heard to accelerate heavy but do not tach it up. Nice clean solid acceleration up to 4k for the first 500 with no prolonged highway usage. Basically city drive it somewhat harder than normal driving until you feel comfortable. Then and only then should you redline it and blow it up.
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Mettler
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Re: (T45)
I spose it's got the AFM to measure that, but what about the change in compression, do you think spark timing would be an issue? I may just socket this ECU and change the maps to VH45 maps.T45 wrote:I think your ecu should easily be able to compensate for the added cc's.
lol, will do!T45 wrote:Then and only then should you redline it and blow it up.
http://www.geocities.com/motor....htmli used a modified version of this for my motor and its strong with 170psi across...i did the 2-3k rpm bit to wear in the bearings (silly because bearings dont need to be broken in...) but to also help seat the rings, then i changed the oil broke it in with 14psi out of a 30r and changed the oil after about 100 miles...then onto regular intervals.just remember to prime the motor before its even started for the first time, this is what really causes wear to engines...i usualy pull the plugs out, disconnect the ecu and use a socket to roll the motor over by hand a few times then use the starter to build full oil pressure...
Correct me if I'm wrong but the bearings should not have any break-in. There isn't/shouldn't be any metal to metal contact to create a break-in condition.
For what it's worth I'd do the hard break-in like the Moto guy explains. Just make sure you do it in steps and in an organized fashion. Don't be afraid to go full throttle but I wouldn't rev the piss out of it until you get a few miles on it.
For what it's worth I'd do the hard break-in like the Moto guy explains. Just make sure you do it in steps and in an organized fashion. Don't be afraid to go full throttle but I wouldn't rev the piss out of it until you get a few miles on it.
Re: (Carl H)
Yes there is alot of different run in procedures out there and different people have different idea's. This is my theroy and it has worked on a hell of alot of engine I have rebuilt. Any thing form push rod petrol engine to a number of big horse power V8's and then on the other end of the scale alot of diesel's from air cooled deutz up to V16 Cat Cummins and Detroit.
Now the only thing that I believe that needs bedding in, in a new engine is the rings. Now if a engine is assembled correctly all your tolerance's are checked and if some aren't right the motor doesn't go together. So you don't need to worry about bearing nipping up and all that crap. People that say this engine should be nursed for a few thousand km or miles are all pulling them selves. A crank shaft or a cam shaft or a cylinder wall IS NOT going to wear that much in a few thousand km that you need to worry about taking it easy on the engine. If the engine clearance's are that tight when its going together, The engine will sieze the first time you give it a real hard time and the engine shouldn't have gone together. Say on your piston to bore clearance a quick basic measuremet that seem to work is 1 thou for every inch of bore diameter. Eg 4 inch bore a minium of 4 thou pist to bore clearance. This is just a rough ball park figure.
As I said before the only thing I believe that need to be run in in a engine is the ring. Now a compression ring from factory will never be the a perfect fit in a newly bored cylinder. There will be little inperfections in the casting that means it is not sealing perfectly. So what you need to do with your newly built engine is produce as much pressure above the ring's to force tham as hard as you can against the bores to try and make them the same shape as the bore so make a real good seal from initial start up. Now if you notice on the top side of compression rings they are slightly tappered in towards the piston. This is so compression can get down in behind the ring and force it out against the bore.
In saying all this the way I run a new engine or a rebuilt engine in is start it up. Bring it up to a high idle eg 800 900 rpm. (DON NOT LEAVE IT IDLING) Do all your checks eg oil pressure no major oil or coolant leaks timing, belt's aren't going to flick off and if a car or truck every thing is safe to drive. This should not take more than say 30 to 40 secs. Shut the engine down. Let it sit recheck your oils and waters and once agian check that every thing is safe to drive. Now i'm lucky enough that I live in the country so I have no stop start of traffic light's. I can drive out of my work shop and basically be on the open road. Now I will restart the car drive out the work shop and head down the road. Once i get past the 60km sign which is approx 3 km its hammer time. That engine needs to be under as much load as it can to get them rings bedding in. Now revs don't do this for you. Load does. High gears low speed and flat out on the loud pedal. Get the engine up to say 3/4 of its max rev and back off slow down and do it again and again and again. The more times the better. Even better again get as much weight in the car as possible to try and load the engine more, With in reason of course. Now obviously if the engine is pinging or not sounding right you stop and figure out whats wrong with it and procced on. IF the engine is assembled correctly, which it will have been if you just spent thousand's of dollars of your hard earned money on it, it will not come apart. If some thing inside is not assembled correctly it don't matter how much you nurse it from new it will still eventually say F@#k this i'm outta here. Along with alot $'s you just spent.
The first say 20 mins of a new engine are its most critcal so you need to have it loaded as much as you can in that time, from there on in the engine really is wearing out not running in. Now the last 16V 149 Detroit I built was approx 2400 hp We had this on the engine dyno for 4 hrs and thats its run in period. And it was a REAL HARD 4 hrs. (If you ever get a chance go into a engine shop wheather it be petrol or diesel and watch how they run a engine in on the dyno and you will be horrified. MAX LOAD FULL THROTTLE). After that it was installed to the unit it was in and put to work as hard as it could. So why should a car engine be any different.
Now I all ways run my engine in on a oil that have little or no friction modifiers in it so that those rings can really bed in hard. A good oil rep will be able to tell you what oil to run your engine in with. Obviously it differs with different engines. Definatley no synthetic oil's. You will all ways have oil consuption probs if you use them for running a engine in. Also I try and have the engine run as warm a possible. So that thermal efficency is at its best. No unburnt fuel getting in around the rings and bores glazing them up. Also change the oil and filter at around the 1000 to 1500km mark. For a laugh get your old filter and cut it open and have a look at whats inside. You'll die at the amount or metal in it. But don't be alarmed that's some what normal.
Then after that If its not run in it never wil be. Drive it like you would normally would but try and minimise the amount of idling it will do. Even on older engine's idling is the worst thing you can do to them.
Hope this is of some help. And hope I didn't dribble to much.
Now the only thing that I believe that needs bedding in, in a new engine is the rings. Now if a engine is assembled correctly all your tolerance's are checked and if some aren't right the motor doesn't go together. So you don't need to worry about bearing nipping up and all that crap. People that say this engine should be nursed for a few thousand km or miles are all pulling them selves. A crank shaft or a cam shaft or a cylinder wall IS NOT going to wear that much in a few thousand km that you need to worry about taking it easy on the engine. If the engine clearance's are that tight when its going together, The engine will sieze the first time you give it a real hard time and the engine shouldn't have gone together. Say on your piston to bore clearance a quick basic measuremet that seem to work is 1 thou for every inch of bore diameter. Eg 4 inch bore a minium of 4 thou pist to bore clearance. This is just a rough ball park figure.
As I said before the only thing I believe that need to be run in in a engine is the ring. Now a compression ring from factory will never be the a perfect fit in a newly bored cylinder. There will be little inperfections in the casting that means it is not sealing perfectly. So what you need to do with your newly built engine is produce as much pressure above the ring's to force tham as hard as you can against the bores to try and make them the same shape as the bore so make a real good seal from initial start up. Now if you notice on the top side of compression rings they are slightly tappered in towards the piston. This is so compression can get down in behind the ring and force it out against the bore.
In saying all this the way I run a new engine or a rebuilt engine in is start it up. Bring it up to a high idle eg 800 900 rpm. (DON NOT LEAVE IT IDLING) Do all your checks eg oil pressure no major oil or coolant leaks timing, belt's aren't going to flick off and if a car or truck every thing is safe to drive. This should not take more than say 30 to 40 secs. Shut the engine down. Let it sit recheck your oils and waters and once agian check that every thing is safe to drive. Now i'm lucky enough that I live in the country so I have no stop start of traffic light's. I can drive out of my work shop and basically be on the open road. Now I will restart the car drive out the work shop and head down the road. Once i get past the 60km sign which is approx 3 km its hammer time. That engine needs to be under as much load as it can to get them rings bedding in. Now revs don't do this for you. Load does. High gears low speed and flat out on the loud pedal. Get the engine up to say 3/4 of its max rev and back off slow down and do it again and again and again. The more times the better. Even better again get as much weight in the car as possible to try and load the engine more, With in reason of course. Now obviously if the engine is pinging or not sounding right you stop and figure out whats wrong with it and procced on. IF the engine is assembled correctly, which it will have been if you just spent thousand's of dollars of your hard earned money on it, it will not come apart. If some thing inside is not assembled correctly it don't matter how much you nurse it from new it will still eventually say F@#k this i'm outta here. Along with alot $'s you just spent.
The first say 20 mins of a new engine are its most critcal so you need to have it loaded as much as you can in that time, from there on in the engine really is wearing out not running in. Now the last 16V 149 Detroit I built was approx 2400 hp We had this on the engine dyno for 4 hrs and thats its run in period. And it was a REAL HARD 4 hrs. (If you ever get a chance go into a engine shop wheather it be petrol or diesel and watch how they run a engine in on the dyno and you will be horrified. MAX LOAD FULL THROTTLE). After that it was installed to the unit it was in and put to work as hard as it could. So why should a car engine be any different.
Now I all ways run my engine in on a oil that have little or no friction modifiers in it so that those rings can really bed in hard. A good oil rep will be able to tell you what oil to run your engine in with. Obviously it differs with different engines. Definatley no synthetic oil's. You will all ways have oil consuption probs if you use them for running a engine in. Also I try and have the engine run as warm a possible. So that thermal efficency is at its best. No unburnt fuel getting in around the rings and bores glazing them up. Also change the oil and filter at around the 1000 to 1500km mark. For a laugh get your old filter and cut it open and have a look at whats inside. You'll die at the amount or metal in it. But don't be alarmed that's some what normal.
Then after that If its not run in it never wil be. Drive it like you would normally would but try and minimise the amount of idling it will do. Even on older engine's idling is the worst thing you can do to them.
Hope this is of some help. And hope I didn't dribble to much.
Re: (gtrob)
Here's a really good read for any one that wants to. Explains in full what I have just said in a shortened version.http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Re: (Mettler)
Sorry Mate missed that one. Is the only way to run them in.