Right to Repair Bill

[frapjap]

With more and more consumers holding onto their cars in the current economic crunch, repairs are going to be inevitable. Cars and their innerworkings are also becoming more and more complex as technology advances.The Right To Repair Bill is going to open up FSM's to generic, neighborhood mechanic businesses so that consumers have the chance to have their vehicles repaired correctly for a fair price- as opposed to the gouging by the dealer- cough, cough stealer cough, cough- ship.

Automakers are opposed, as well as the labor unions and designers. Making all of the research and propitary information available to Joe Blow Mechanic or, moving up the chain, Ford's new Sync available to Hyundai for disection by design.

Me? I'm in agreeance with the bill. Not wholly because everyone should have access to the repair materials, but because the prices of repair and maintenance on out of warranty repairs at a dealership are absurd. I don't agree with giving away the designs, but you can't really have your cake and eat it here too. I think we'll end up with something closer to a Haynes manual. A document with just enough information to get the job done.

What do ya'll think? Discuss.

http://www.righttorepair.org/main/http: ... epair.com/

[PoorManQ45]

Making all of the research and propitary information

What information would that be?

[Jesda]

I believe its a violation of intellectual property. Trade secrets are a big deal, essential to maintaining a competitive advantage.

Excessive complexity and an inability to find independent service should discourage a consumer from buying that particular car outside the warranty period. Sales and resale values will be affected. There's a built-in consequence.

But I don't have a definite opinion on this issue yet.

[C-Kwik]

I doubt its an issue of proprietary info. Anything that proprietary that they want to protect will be patented. Otherwise reverse engineers at other manufacturers could steal it quite easily.

As for parts manufacturers making aftermarket versions, I would think outside of patented designs whose manufacturing is likely limited, it would be easy enough to reverse engineer the individual parts.

Manucfacturers have an interest in protecting their dealers service departments. Its a big source of profit, especially on out of warranty repairs.

That said, what is to stop a mechanic from buying FSMs? I can understand the limitations on access to proprietary tools, but there are usually still alternative methods of detecting a problem and resolving it in most cases. The exceptions might be with reprogramming one of the on-board computers or something.

[Beancooker]

Flat out, I think the ENTIRE FSM should be publicly available for anyone who wants to read it. Just because you have the info in the FSM, doesn't mean you'll be a decent enough mechanic to fix your car.

The rest of the "research and propitiatory information" probably doesn't need to be disclosed.

Had I had the FSM for my Subie, I would have known how the triangle above the door panel came off. I wouldn't have broken one to learn how to take them off.

[PoorManQ45]

Flat out, I think the ENTIRE FSM should be publicly available for anyone who wants to read it. Just because you have the info in the FSM, doesn't mean you'll be a decent enough mechanic to fix your car.

I agree 100%!!!

Look at all the information on the internet, and yet service shops for trades are still open and doing well. Most people refuse to work on things themselves. They'll pay someone else to fix it.

So the only thing that would be hurt by freely publishing the FSMs is the dealer's bottom line as they'll be missing out on $100+ each book!

[Jesda]

"The only thing that would be hurt" is a great way to justify a lot of stupid, government-mandated garbage. Its a "derp derp im a consumer derp derp" mentality that opens the door to s***ty legislation created by foolish know-it-alls with good intentions.

Just because it feels practical doesn't make it right to use the force of law to compel others to succumb to your need for convenience.

Let the consumers discover that a manufacturer makes cars that are difficult to service, and let sales be affected. I'm not buying any Audis.

If it becomes a major issue, manufacturers will tout serviceability as a feature, as has occurred in the printing/imaging industry. Kodak and Xerox are using environmentally friendly remanufacturing to save money and reduce costs. They do it not because they love trees, rivers, and spotted owls, but because it allows them to be cost-competitive. They take back used hardware themselves for refurbishing instead of leaving it entirely to the aftermarket. Standardization and "design for remanufacturing" could catch on in the auto industry if someone wanted to be a little innovative.

[PoorManQ45]

You're missing it though. Consumers still wont even look at the information. Even if it is there!

Look at all the info that's available on Refrigerators and washing machines. Some brands are absolutely horribly designed. This information is readily available on the internet, but consumers choose not to look for it and take the advice of their sales person.

[Bubba1]

I suspect this bill is aimed at Volkswagen, who in recent years have made it increasingly more difficult for owners to have their get cars repaired except by dealers. For example, VW designed the Passat to require a special tool just to check automatic transmission fluid. The tool is expensive and must be purchased through VW. So most shops do not make enough money or work on enough Veedubs to warrant buying that special tool. In addition, the fluid itself is uber expensive and only available only VW dealers. Fluid Substitutions will void their warranty.

[Jesda]

This information is readily available on the internet, but consumers choose not to look for it and take the advice of their sales person.

Instead, they sign online petitions and nag their representatives to write new and unnecessary laws.

[Jesda]

I suspect this bill is aimed at Volkswagen, who in recent years have made it increasingly more difficult for owners to have their get cars repaired except by dealers. For example, VW designed the Passat to require a special tool just to check automatic transmission fluid. The tool is expensive and must be purchased through VW. So most shops do not make enough money or work on enough Veedubs to warrant buying that special tool. In addition, the fluid itself is uber expensive and only available only VW dealers. Fluid Substitutions will void their warranty.

Indeed, which is why sites like Edmunds calculate Total Cost of Ownership, not just resale value and purchase price.

[PoorManQ45]

I suspect this bill is aimed at Volkswagen, who in recent years have made it increasingly more difficult for owners to have their get cars repaired except by dealers. For example, VW designed the Passat to require a special tool just to check automatic transmission fluid. The tool is expensive and must be purchased through VW. So most shops do not make enough money or work on enough Veedubs to warrant buying that special tool. In addition, the fluid itself is uber expensive and only available only VW dealers. Fluid Substitutions will void their warranty.

That one completely pissed me off. We were looking at new cars awhile back. the Jetta and Passat came up. We test drove them. They are awesome cars for the money . But the dealership required maintenance was an instant nail in the coffin. They weren't even throwing in free three year wear and tear at the time...

[Jesda]

That one completely pissed me off. We were looking at new cars awhile back. the Jetta and Passat came up. We test drove them. They are awesome cars for the money . But the dealership required maintenance was an instant nail in the coffin. They weren't even throwing in free three year wear and tear at the time...

So what did you buy instead?

[AZhitman]

I suspect this bill is aimed at Volkswagen, who in recent years have made it increasingly more difficult for owners to have their get cars repaired except by dealers. For example, VW designed the Passat to require a special tool just to check automatic transmission fluid. The tool is expensive and must be purchased through VW. So most shops do not make enough money or work on enough Veedubs to warrant buying that special tool. In addition, the fluid itself is uber expensive and only available only VW dealers. Fluid Substitutions will void their warranty.

This one is SO bogus.

I (foolishly) bought a 02 TDi at the peak of the gas crisis a couple years back, and paid WAY too much for it. 50mpg was great, but the car was overweight, boring, and uninspired. Plus, I HATE German interiors and ergonomics.

Anyway, replacing the timing belt = $300-400 in tools. Expensive tool to check the ATF. Same for several other normally-servicable parts. Special dealer-only coolant. Special dealer-only oil. Closest dealer? 22 miles away, through the most congested part of town. Bullcrap.

Should I have done my research? Of course. Then again, I had no reason to suspect the car would be such a prissyass maintenance whore.

I took a $5K loss JUST to get the damned thing out of my driveway. Lesson learned.

[Jesda]

Then again, I had no reason to suspect the car would be such a prissyass maintenance whore.

Sure you did. Of my 30,000 posts, at least 1,000 were devoted to hating VW. [the rest are evenly divided between bacon and kelly clarkson, which now ironically are both pig-like]

[PoorManQ45]

So what did you buy instead?

Hyundai Elantra

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

I'm for it...simply because I believe in open source and that my gf runs a jag/land rover/ferrari/mini repair shop and the bill would mean a dramatic increase in paying customers for them. Everyone knows that the Jag dealer in Portland is a gigantic rip-off that sometimes puts out shoddy work but the car owners have nowhere else to go if they own newer machines.

[Mr1der]

Sure you did. Of my 30,000 posts, at least 1,000 were devoted to hating VW. [the rest are evenly divided between bacon and kelly clarkson, which now ironically are both pig-like]

you owe me a keyboard and a bottle of Coke Zero.

d!ck.

[AZhitman]

Sure you did. Of my 30,000 posts, at least 1,000 were devoted to hating VW. [the rest are evenly divided between bacon and kelly clarkson, which now ironically are both pig-like]

Win.

Can I ever be forgiven?

[Dattebayo]

SO what's wrong with Bill again?

[Chaotic_Warlord]

I'm all for this, after all if the manufacturers are concerned about each other using them to reverse engineer then systems, what's to stop those same companies from buying one of there competitors cars and reverse engineering them at a plant. All else fails just not put any of the electronics systems (like Ford's Sync), after all if anything in these systems fails you pretty much have to purchase all new components anyways, but for the mechanicals and electrical circuits you can pretty much do yourself.

[MinisterofDOOM]

My Lincoln has no transmission dipstick. Instead, you simply remove the fill plug (at the max fill level on the trans pan) and see if oil spills out. If not, you add until it reaches that level. FAIL.

I haven't read enough about this law to know what I think, but I do believe that EVERY OWNER should have free access to the same factory service manuals their dealer uses. You can often buy them from the dealer, they are just so prohibitively priced that few individuals ever will. All I'd really like to change is that cost. I'd like to see FSMs available for download alongside regular owners' manuals and maintenance schedules on manufacturer's websites. I can understand paying ~$50 or less for the materials that go into a printed FSM, but anything beyond that is just the manufacturer trying to restrict access to information that shouldn't be restricted.

[PoorManQ45]

How about treat cars like PC video games.

Every owners manual has a CD Key in it that is good for one manual. Then "install" that manual on said computer with no way but to call the manufacturer to unlock it. LOL

[MinisterofDOOM]

I honestly don't think copy-protection should be a consideration for things like manuals and FSMs. They are not produced for profit. Free distribution by any means (including redistribution by third parties so long as contents are unaltered) should be encouraged.

[PoorManQ45]

This is true.

I don't see why there is any objection from anyone other then manufacturers and dealers.

[Jesda]

Its not even about copyrights or design secrets. Its about justifying the use of government to force manufacturers to provide you with a convenience.

The serviceability of a car is a competitive issue, not something you have a "right" to. You are free, by all means, to design your own specialized tools and sell them to other vehicle owners. You are also free to not buy a Volkswagen or Audi. It is you, the consumer, who is obligated to become educated and know what kind of car your independent technician is comfortable with working on.

Government should be used very sparingly for infrastructure, for defense, and for the provision of local and regional services. It is NOT there for the 'convenience' of used car owners who are 'annoyed' and should have done their research.

Does anyone operate on a set of principles anymore, or is it just a question of what feels easy?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Its not even about copyrights or design secrets. Its about justifying the use of government to force manufacturers to provide you with a convenience.

Does anyone operate on a set of principles anymore, or is it just a question of what feels easy?

It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with availability of information. I will repair my own car whether I have an FSM or not, unless I don't have the proper equipment, at which point I will go to a dealer or mechanic, whether I have an FSM or not.

99% of the population of the world can't even hold a pencil the right way, let alone perform their own repairs. But at least with access to the car's documentation they can make informed decisions. How is FSM access any different than information on a forum, aside from the fact that its origins mean it is likely more dependable? Owner knowledge does not harm the manufacturer or the dealer. But it DOES benefit the owner.

Again, I'm not talking about tools or proprietary info here. I'm talking about shop manuals which, again, you can buy if you have the cash. The cash is the issue. Why should an owner have to pay $400 for a shop manual?

It's not about what's "easy," it's about information.

Government should be used very sparingly for infrastructure, for defense, and for the provision of local and regional services. It is NOT there for the 'convenience' of used car owners who are 'annoyed' and should have done their research.

I agree with you on this. But at the same time, I can acknowledge that there are situations in which a push is required. I'm an Imperialist, which means that I prefer to let the people rule themselves until I see them doing something really stupid, at which point the government needs to step in and say "No."

I'm not saying the LAW as a whole is good. I'm saying service manuals should be freely available. Not proprietary parts or any of that crap. Just manuals. Just INFORMATION. I'll even pay for it if it comes printed on paper. But putting a $400 pricetag on a maintenance manual is just as wrong as expecting the manufacturer to give out all their trade secrets so little shops can compete on the same level.

[Dattebayo]

I can kind of see what Jes is getting at tho, since he works in books and all...

College textbooks sometimes cost a whole sh*tload too. Is the govt going to step in and make those books cost less as well?

Some would say the reason why repair manuals cost so much is because of the limited run or the royalties given to the authors... They are entitled to their fair share as well I think... (doesn't mean i have to like it)

[MinisterofDOOM]

College textbooks sometimes cost a whole sh*tload too. Is the govt going to step in and make those books cost less as well?

The difference is that textbooks are written by someone to make money. They need to make money off it. If FMSs were intended to sell for profit, you'd find an FSM section at every book store. They are not. They are simply designed as repair aids. Their sales do not support anything directly. So therefore making them free isn't taking the food off of some poor author's table.

(FWIW, I'd be happy with an FSM section at every bookstore, too. Like I said before $50 is fine, several hundred is not.)

[Dattebayo]

Well you'd have to prove it I think. And as I said before, I would think they cost more because of the limited run.

I really don't like it, but it would only be another reason for the govt to spend more money on sh*t that really doesn't matter.