Republican District Democratic Win

[telcoman]

As I previously predicted!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/nyreg ... ml?_r=1&hp

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... ml?hpid=z2

Every elected Republican and Tea Party member that voted for Ryan's plan should begin planning for a new line of work.

Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ as you leave.

"...The House seat became vacant after Rep. Christopher Lee (R-N.Y.) resigned following revelations that he had posted shirtless pictures of himself online."

Thank you Chris Lee for giving the Dems another seat

Telcoman

[AZhitman]

*yawn*

[telcoman]

*yawn*

Go back to sleep Greg

You were probably dreaming that is was November 2012 and the Dems took back the house, a fillibuster proof senate and Obama won reelection.

Now that couldn't happen could it?

[IBCoupe]

She won by being very moderate. Let that be a lesson to everyone. This woman will be making headlines in the same way that Scott Brown is now.

[HashiriyaS14]

She won by being very moderate. Let that be a lesson to everyone. This woman will be making headlines in the same way that Scott Brown is now.

^^
That's one way to think of it.

Most of the population doesn't like extremism in any guise on principle, so when faced with something that they consider extremist (Paul Ryan Medicare plan) vs anything else, most people are going to opt for "anything else".

That said, I *don't* necessarily think that this race was a true referendum on the Medicare vote the way the Dems say it is, just because the Tea candidate upset the balance so much. This does NOT get the GOP off the hook, however.

The GOP has put together a very uncomfortable coalition with Tea, they are stranger bedfellows than they openly admit. If the GOP goes with an establishment candidate (Romney, even Pawlenty), it is entirely possible that we will see more and more races, up to and including the Presidential race, wherein we've got a third Tea candidate. This will utterly ruin things for the GOP everywhere it occurs, and so they need to keep their coalition together (i.e. appease Tea) or be crushed.

[IBCoupe]

More and more, Hash, I think appeasing the TEA partiers means abandoning independents, though.

[Cold_Zero]

Hey, the Republicans can alienate TEA party members and make them effectively independents.

[AZhitman]

^ I prefer that idea.

BTW, the Dems were probably upset that Lee took his shirtless pictures down... gave them one less thing to fap to.

What a stupid bunch of irrelevant crap.

[n00b240]

From what I could gather, the central issue in this vote was the Paul Ryan Plan. Nice to see the People in this one district do not like this plan. It doesn't necessarily mean they like Obama's plan. But rather than the news networks talking about how this is a setback for republicans. GOP is on the mad defensive for backing the plan. Pundits for both sides, spinning like crazy

How about a new discussion, on alternatives to the Ryan plan, and Obama's plan. Also, its one friggin district, relax entertainment news media, relax. I wish journalism would come back to its roots

[telcoman]

From what I could gather, the central issue in this vote was the Paul Ryan Plan. Nice to see the People in this one district do not like this plan. It doesn't necessarily mean they like Obama's plan. But rather than the news networks talking about how this is a setback for republicans. GOP is on the mad defensive for backing the plan. Pundits for both sides, spinning like crazy

How about a new discussion, on alternatives to the Ryan plan, and Obama's plan. Also, its one friggin district, relax entertainment news media, relax. I wish journalism would come back to its roots

And this

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/us/po ... ml?_r=2&hp

Telcoman

[telcoman]

She won by being very moderate. Let that be a lesson to everyone. This woman will be making headlines in the same way that Scott Brown is now.

^^
That's one way to think of it.

Most of the population doesn't like extremism in any guise on principle, so when faced with something that they consider extremist (Paul Ryan Medicare plan) vs anything else, most people are going to opt for "anything else".

That said, I *don't* necessarily think that this race was a true referendum on the Medicare vote the way the Dems say it is, just because the Tea candidate upset the balance so much. This does NOT get the GOP off the hook, however.

The GOP has put together a very uncomfortable coalition with Tea, they are stranger bedfellows than they openly admit. If the GOP goes with an establishment candidate (Romney, even Pawlenty), it is entirely possible that we will see more and more races, up to and including the Presidential race, wherein we've got a third Tea candidate. This will utterly ruin things for the GOP everywhere it occurs, and so they need to keep their coalition together (i.e. appease Tea) or be crushed.

You can hear Paul Ryan backpedal here

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/vp/ ... 4#43166054

I have to give him credit for at least appearing on MSNBC. Many others on the right will only appear on Fox which is one reason why they can win a primary but never win in a general election.

Telcoman

[telcoman]

From what I could gather, the central issue in this vote was the Paul Ryan Plan. Nice to see the People in this one district do not like this plan. It doesn't necessarily mean they like Obama's plan. But rather than the news networks talking about how this is a setback for republicans. GOP is on the mad defensive for backing the plan. Pundits for both sides, spinning like crazy

How about a new discussion, on alternatives to the Ryan plan, and Obama's plan. Also, its one friggin district, relax entertainment news media, relax. I wish journalism would come back to its roots

The position of the right is quite clear

http://www.wrno.com/pages/Morning_Show. ... le=8593640

Since the 2010 elections the right has been one huge scam and the american people are now waking up to it.
People who never voted for e Dem in their life are not going to allow their medicare and social security to be taken away.

Telcoman

[n00b240]

I have to give him credit for at least appearing on MSNBC. Many others on the right will only appear on Fox which is one reason why they can win a primary but never win in a general election.

Telcoman

I agree with the appearing on Fox. But I wouldnt say never win

[telcoman]

I have to give him credit for at least appearing on MSNBC. Many others on the right will only appear on Fox which is one reason why they can win a primary but never win in a general election.

Telcoman

I agree with the appearing on Fox. But I wouldnt say never win

You are correct. I should have said highly unlikely rather than never. My bad

[AZhitman]

Vague generalities, bumper stickery slogans, hastily-edited posts, and unsupported contentions.

Must be a telcothread.

[HashiriyaS14]

^ I prefer that idea.

Bud and IB make an interesting point in concert though.

It would appear that for the GOP, Tea and traditional independents are a zero-sum game, they can't have both.

This is of pivotal importance to the American political landscape, as the ability of the GOP to create a majority coalition is going to shape our nation in material ways.


Ultimately, I just don't see how Tea can work as a party electorally. In the United States, you only matter if you can shape yourself into a majority, and their demands of ideological purity are so stringent that I just don't see them ever doing that. They'd rather lose and "be right" than compromise and win, and that mindset doesn't work in the American political system.

[AZhitman]

They'd rather lose and "be right" than compromise and win

Can't say I dislike that mantra. Wish there was more of it.

Somehow, integrity is following self-reliance, industriousness and character down the drain.

[IBCoupe]

At some point, Greg, "integrity" turns into "boneheadedness," which turns into "douchebaggery."

Moral integrity is one thing. Trying to break the system (a la playing chicken with our country's credit card payment) because you don't get your way is childish, and shouldn't be rewarded.

[HashiriyaS14]

They'd rather lose and "be right" than compromise and win

Can't say I dislike that mantra. Wish there was more of it.

Somehow, integrity is following self-reliance, industriousness and character down the drain.

This is a noble sentiment, after a fashion, but it will lead to irrelevance.

You're either trying to put a majority coalition together or you're accepting life on the margins. If the former, have at it, but it'll be tough when you're insisting on ideological purity. If the latter, then you're not allowed to kvetch about anything...ever.

[srellim234]

In this instance, though, the Tea Party people don't have the integrity. Fully two thirds of them when polled are saying, "Don't touch MY social security and Medicare. We are demanding it be cut, but not for ME."

The devil in the details of cutting things is always deciding what you are willing to give up yourself when demanding others do likewise. The Tea Party people are apparently just like the Democrats and Republicans in Congress have been all along: they are more than willing to force it on others who are powerless but they are not willing to abide by cuts themselves.

[AZhitman]

In this instance, though, the Tea Party people don't have the integrity. Fully two thirds of them when polled are saying, "Don't touch MY social security and Medicare. We are demanding it be cut, but not for ME."

Maybe that's my problem - I'm perfectly willing to accept cuts to both programs. As such, I'm not a great spokesperson for EITHER side of this debate.

Call it "boneheadedness" if you wish, but that doesn't represent a viable alternative to my position, which is that EVERYONE is going to have to feel the burn (yes, even delusional old men in NJ in the early stages of Alzheimer's) if we're ever to avoid fiscally screwing our progeny.

Then again, most of the voting public is too lazy to really read proposals, so they just run with sensationalized and erroneous headlines (see "Don't Say Gay thread for example)... As such, they remain misinformed and can't comprehend that Ryan's plan didn't really do away with either program.

So, it's no surprise there's misguided outrage.

[HashiriyaS14]

At the moment, regardless of what gets said or who gets elected promising what, the majority will is NOT there yet to cut entitlements in order to reduce the deficit.

The 2010 House Freshmen thought they had a mandate and it's pretty clear that they didn't. People were raging, but most weren't prepared to endure any real austerity.

If you're one of those who are willing to deal with real austerity (i.e. myself, Greg, surely others), this can all be frustrating, but you can't blame it on the system. The system is doing it's job of reflecting the will of the majority.

[stebo0728]

What if we were to get some major SS/MC reform, PLUS, go ahead and end the Bush cuts. And then once the economy starts to balance back out, lets work on some major tax reform. My vote of course if for the FairTax, but there are other options on the table, and yet others I'm sure that we could muster up. One thing I'd like to see as part of the Flat Tax, if it were to pass, is an end to the payroll withholding. If someone things they will get hit with problems on April 15th, let them start their own interest bearing savings account, and pour the withholding amounts into it. But cutting that check on April 15th every year would go a long way to keeping taxation clear. Hardly anyone can tell you "What they paid" these days because the withholdings muck it up.

[R/T Hemi]

Actually, the Rep's made a critical mistake in the district. They mentioned cuts to medicare. They got slapped in the face for even thinking about that. So much for anyone doing that again.

[bigbadberry3]

What if we were to get some major SS/MC reform, PLUS, go ahead and end the Bush cuts. And then once the economy starts to balance back out, lets work on some major tax reform. .

Didn't read the rest because I was happy enough we got this far Agreed for completely feasible.

[stebo0728]

Actually, the Rep's made a critical mistake in the district. They mentioned cuts to medicare. They got slapped in the face for even thinking about that. So much for anyone doing that again.

They never learn do they, as soon as they open this can the democrats immediately jump into scare tactic mode, terrorizing the old folks with propaganda. Maybe one day they'll learn eh?

[stebo0728]

What if we were to get some major SS/MC reform, PLUS, go ahead and end the Bush cuts. And then once the economy starts to balance back out, lets work on some major tax reform. .

Didn't read the rest because I was happy enough we got this far Agreed for completely feasible.

Hey, entitlement reform is critical, if ending the Bush snips is what it takes to bring entitlement reform to the table, then lets do it. Im still convinced revenue will decrease, but probably marginally, and getting entitlement reform outweighs the negatives of ending the Bush cuts, at least thats my opinion.

BUT again, this is temporary. The Bush cuts may never come back, but thats ok because part of our deal is that we are at some point (in the NEAR future) going to give a serious swing at complete tax reform.

[telcoman]

Actually, the Rep's made a critical mistake in the district. They mentioned cuts to medicare. They got slapped in the face for even thinking about that. So much for anyone doing that again.

The Reps left revenue inhancement off the table.

That item alone makes any kind of compromise impossible

Anyone that is really serious about balancing a budget needs that item on the table

[stebo0728]

The Reps left revenue inhancement off the table.

Revenue enhancement isnt off the table. Democrats form of revenue enhancement doesnt work, it will have a contrary effect, shrinking revenue further.

But as I said above, if thats what it takes to get the bulk of the problem dealt with, entitlement bloating, then so be it.

[IBCoupe]

Democrats form of revenue enhancement doesnt work, it will have a contrary effect, shrinking revenue further.

[citation needed]

You know what? Nah, don't bother. It's 80 degrees out here, and I don't feel like getting into another tax debate with you, Stebo.