Repeated Transmission Failure (planetary)
Repeated Transmission Failure (planetary)
Hello guys, thought I'd drop a line or two since I haven't posted for awhile. Just went thru the third RE4R03a Planetary gears.. First went on my second Q45 when it shifted from 3rd to OD at 135.. The second was similar and with the help of this forum and my friend who owns a transmission shop I thought I had it cured. Well on the way back from New Orleans. Almost the same senerio as the first except I was holding it in 3rd around 130 it seemed like I was putting on the brake at the same time.. Anyway the engine didn't loose power but I started to slow down and around 80 began a knock . Drove about another 4 miles. Trying to figure out Eng or transmission.. Then it started sounding like a few loose marbles but the eng didn't miss or loose power. I pulled over and got a truck and towed it from Beaumont TX to Dallas TX. Found the lastest technical manaul on the transmission from ATSG and started looking. Almost to last few pages I found two pages Repeat Planetary Failure and Repeated Planetary Failure. There's a mod to the case and to the sun gear to increase fluid circulation on the first page and on the Repeated Planetary Failure second page a how to add a cooler.. If anyone is about to do a transmission overhaul this would be a good time to do the other mods..
No, I wouldn't drive my Q without a cooler... I have the cooler and Mobil ATF running or had.. But, again I had thought that with the Level 10 kit , cooler etc I wouldn't have the planetary problem. But it's listed in the ATSG to remove the bushing from the sun gear and to remove a plug from the rear of the housing. I had tried a 2002 Lexus 430 , a Mercedes SL500, and when I had the transmission problem I was playing with a SS Camero 2002. The Lexus ran up to 125 and quit , the Mercedes never did anything, and the Camero wouldn't pass 130
The overhaul was done with their kit here in TX without the pump mod..No one mentioned a mod to the pump and no one mentioned the mod to the case or sun gear again that's out of the ATSG book I just received that specifies Repeat and Repeated Planetary failure Tthe overhaul was over a year ago. Had a few shifts at 140 into OD . Overall I really liked the transmission with the kit just wish there had been a memo on the other mods to be done. I'm going back with a complete overhaul bushings, bands, and new mods.
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Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Study the way the ATF flows from the TC thru cooler [in radiator or other] and back to the rear planetary FIRST.Measuring the temperature out of the cooler is more important than the pan temperature which feeds the pump. You may see scarey peaks in temperature which are galling the rear planetary.
When you do a BG machine flush, you always measure the exchange time to gauge the pump/seal HEALTH.........the at idle in park 750-800 rpm rate should be 14 quarts in 3.5 minutes [no more than 4.0 minutes= 4 to 3.5 quarts per minute.
We see ranges of 3.5 minutes to as bad a 6.5 minutes [last legs]
Obviously if the rear planetaries are getting less flow than design something will fail.
Plenty of TSB about blocked in pan filters and in rad heat exchangers which look good until cut open.The metal lines to and from transmission before the coolers must be flushed out to remove the possible scale from degraded ATF.
Narrowing of the arteries just like humans.
A well maintained one [which has received $1000-$1,200 in flush/filter maintenance 6@30k=$800 + pan drops] should last 200,000 miles vs maybe 80k - 100 - 120k in doing nothing.
The problem is / was nothing was done at 30k and maybe nothing at 60k.I always recommend a pan drop and clean on a remanned at 1 year or 12k, then a immediate flush , then you can wait till 42k to start the 30k flush cycle.
When you get a good one [you'll know in 30 days] you want to keep it that way!
When you do a BG machine flush, you always measure the exchange time to gauge the pump/seal HEALTH.........the at idle in park 750-800 rpm rate should be 14 quarts in 3.5 minutes [no more than 4.0 minutes= 4 to 3.5 quarts per minute.
We see ranges of 3.5 minutes to as bad a 6.5 minutes [last legs]
Obviously if the rear planetaries are getting less flow than design something will fail.
Plenty of TSB about blocked in pan filters and in rad heat exchangers which look good until cut open.The metal lines to and from transmission before the coolers must be flushed out to remove the possible scale from degraded ATF.
Narrowing of the arteries just like humans.
A well maintained one [which has received $1000-$1,200 in flush/filter maintenance 6@30k=$800 + pan drops] should last 200,000 miles vs maybe 80k - 100 - 120k in doing nothing.
The problem is / was nothing was done at 30k and maybe nothing at 60k.I always recommend a pan drop and clean on a remanned at 1 year or 12k, then a immediate flush , then you can wait till 42k to start the 30k flush cycle.
When you get a good one [you'll know in 30 days] you want to keep it that way!
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docsmile71
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 4:16 am
Does this Planetary failure affect all first gen Q's? Who can do these mods for you, the dealer? How come Infiniti doesn't send out a TSB to get these things fixed?
My Honda accord had 125K hard miles on the auto transmission and it had no problems...and Honda's are infamous for their weak slushboxes. I expect at least 200K on the Q. Am I stretching it here?
My Honda accord had 125K hard miles on the auto transmission and it had no problems...and Honda's are infamous for their weak slushboxes. I expect at least 200K on the Q. Am I stretching it here?
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Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Most transmissons use the same design specs 100,000 full shift cycles at varying engine torque power loads.
The question is the reserve [how much power] the transmission sees vs the design limits. the RE4R03A is actualy overloaded by the actual 90-93 Q engine output [290 lb/ft published vs 300-310 real].................the transmission maker assumes the ATF is clean and kept at a safe temperature.........the AT designers specs didn't get to the owners manual or the heat budget design.
Same with the new JRE5 transmission used on the Q and M the specs are just equal to the engine power [333 lb/ft] BUT the same transmission is used on the G35 with only 250-260 lb/ft [it will last longer].
Other than reducing power shifts [WOT], few shifts per mile [highway driving], about all you can do is keep the ATF clean and at optimum viscousity [away from heat].
Owners are missing that the early Q was only designed to last 80-100k what they thought a lux owner would keep it. They didn't consider it in the used market at all........in Japan nobody bought older lux cars as the rehabilitation cost were too high.
The Japanese understood that it can cost more to keep up a older used lux car than to make the payments on a new one unless you let them run into the ground [and the Janese would never do that after all most Q/Presidents were purchased by Corporations or the Government.
Lexus attacked the problem differently and used extra reserve on components with lower powered engines till 1998.Mercedes always matched engines with a 15-20% reserve transmissions.
The question is the reserve [how much power] the transmission sees vs the design limits. the RE4R03A is actualy overloaded by the actual 90-93 Q engine output [290 lb/ft published vs 300-310 real].................the transmission maker assumes the ATF is clean and kept at a safe temperature.........the AT designers specs didn't get to the owners manual or the heat budget design.
Same with the new JRE5 transmission used on the Q and M the specs are just equal to the engine power [333 lb/ft] BUT the same transmission is used on the G35 with only 250-260 lb/ft [it will last longer].
Other than reducing power shifts [WOT], few shifts per mile [highway driving], about all you can do is keep the ATF clean and at optimum viscousity [away from heat].
Owners are missing that the early Q was only designed to last 80-100k what they thought a lux owner would keep it. They didn't consider it in the used market at all........in Japan nobody bought older lux cars as the rehabilitation cost were too high.
The Japanese understood that it can cost more to keep up a older used lux car than to make the payments on a new one unless you let them run into the ground [and the Janese would never do that after all most Q/Presidents were purchased by Corporations or the Government.
Lexus attacked the problem differently and used extra reserve on components with lower powered engines till 1998.Mercedes always matched engines with a 15-20% reserve transmissions.