Remove Oil Pump

Post by **l0nestar** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:16 pm

Alright everyone, quick, basic, to the point.

How do I remove the oil pump?

I used pages EN-120 and EN-131, but they did not provide much information other than EN-120 stating about a 'seal cutter', but I do not want to remove the entire oil pan if I do not have to. I did notice that all of the bolts that I removed had the factory gray 'loctite' on them, so that was nice. I could not find a place to break the seal to pry the pump off. (I do realize that when I go to remove the pump it must be pulled straight off (evenly) and not 'c***-eyed'.

Background:I have been dis-assembling the RB25 and got to a stopping point. I cannot remove the Oil Pump. I have removed the upper timing cover, main pulley, timing pulley, timing belt, and tensioner (or idler, cant remember which is which.) I removed all of the bolts from the pump and labeled and bagged them along with the bolts from the oil pan under the pump. I also removed the first two additional oil-pan bolts and loosened the next two as well. Do I need to remove the oil-pan completely first??

Sorry if everyone gets tired of me asking what may appear to be elementary questions. I look at a problem, attempt to solve it, research FSM, then search, THEN ASK! I don't know everything, but I am always ready to learn something! Plus I don't want to d!ck up anything on my RB. It is always better to learn from other peoples mistakes And I think that is also an important aspect of this forum that may be over looked some times.

Thanks!l0nestar.

Post by **Gold Digger** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:15 am

l0nestar wrote:Alright everyone, quick, basic, to the point.

How do I remove the oil pump?

I used pages EN-120 and EN-131, but they did not provide much information other than EN-120 stating about a 'seal cutter', but I do not want to remove the entire oil pan if I do not have to. I did notice that all of the bolts that I removed had the factory gray 'loctite' on them, so that was nice. I could not find a place to break the seal to pry the pump off. (I do realize that when I go to remove the pump it must be pulled straight off (evenly) and not 'c***-eyed'.

Background:I have been dis-assembling the RB25 and got to a stopping point. I cannot remove the Oil Pump. I have removed the upper timing cover, main pulley, timing pulley, timing belt, and tensioner (or idler, cant remember which is which.) I removed all of the bolts from the pump and labeled and bagged them along with the bolts from the oil pan under the pump. I also removed the first two additional oil-pan bolts and loosened the next two as well. Do I need to remove the oil-pan completely first??

Sorry if everyone gets tired of me asking what may appear to be elementary questions. I look at a problem, attempt to solve it, research FSM, then search, THEN ASK! I don't know everything, but I am always ready to learn something! Plus I don't want to d!ck up anything on my RB. It is always better to learn from other peoples mistakes And I think that is also an important aspect of this forum that may be over looked some times.

Thanks!l0nestar.

Can anyone help this guy out?

Post by **Darius** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:17 am

You pretty much have to drop the oil pan or at least loosen the bolts enough to be able to drop the front of it about 1/4". There is a bolt on the oil pump that hangs down a little bit lower than the rim of the pan, so you can't just slide it straight out.

But, if you drop the oil pan, you're going to need to run a new bead of silicon gasket so you might as well take the whole thing off.

Post by **l0nestar** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:35 am

Darius,

Do I need to use something like a seal cutter to cut it at the front? I understand about just removing the oil pan completely once I break the seal, I would just rather not remove it, but I guess I have no choice, but it is probably better that I do it in the end. My engine is still on the stand, so it should be fine. Thanks for the info about the 'hidden' bolt. That is the type of thing they should include in the FSM, or actual step-by-step instructions instead of 'open boot, disconnect ground, remove engine, remove oil pan, etc...'

I'm also _really_ hoping to find that I do not have a short-snout crank when I get the pump off. That is the whole reason for removing it.

Anyways, Thanks for answering my question Darius.

Post by **Darius** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:46 am

Seal cutter? I don't know what that is referring to.

If you have the engine on the stand, just remove the oil pan and remove the oil pump bolts. Pull off. The seal for the oil pump is paper and will probably tear up as your remove it so you will need a new one. You may also have to replace your oil pump to crankshaft seal, but maybe not.

Post by **gawdzilla** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:37 am

i think its possible to remove the oil pump without removing the pan. you'll just find it is a lot easier if you break the seal between the pump and the pan by removing the pan first.

also, if you remove the pan, its easy to pry at the pump from the back if its stuck on there. there are 2 dowels that help line the pump up to the block.

another thing to note is if you do not drop the pan just a little bit that regulator bolt on the bottom might interfere with the pan.

i would drop the pan, its not a big deal. liquid gasket that you can just clean off and redo. just try not to get crap into the pan while you're doing it. plus it gives you a chance to glance at your bottom end

Post by **Sil240** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:40 am

The seal cutter is a special tool to take off the oil pan, so you don't mess up the mating surfaces of the block and oil pan.Just use a razor blade and a Flat head.

YES!!! You HAVE to take the Oil pan off.Unless there is some other way I don't know of. I rebuilt my motor like a year and change ago.

Did your timing gear come off ok??I had to beat the back of the oil pump to get it off.

Tools:Dead Blow Hammer2-3 Foot 2X4

Good luck

Post by **l0nestar** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:58 am

Sil240,

I will take your instructions. The timing gear came right off. I just jiggled it and it slid right off the shaft!

Thanks!

Post by **l0nestar** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:06 am

Darius,

Sil240 answered what the Seal Cutter is. There is a picture on page EN-120 to see what I am referring to.

I plan on replacing my pump with an N1, since I am going to be running an external oil-cooler. Hopefully I do not have to replace the seal :-\ , but I would just add that to the ever-growing list of items to replace. I also had already planned on using Permatex water pump sealant on the oil pump, unless anybody has any suggestions / corrections for that along with re-sealing the oil-pan. I hope to have this issue resolved either tomorrow afternoon, or on Wed 24-JAN (after my shift work is done).

Post by **l0nestar** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:12 am

Gawdzilla,I will proceed to remove the pan. What should I look for while inspecting my bottom end? I will take pictures and post them when I get to that point.

Everybody (gawdzilla, Darius, sil240, Laurel), Thanks for the info!

Post by **Carl H** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:02 am

i highly sudgest filling your new n1 pump with assembly lube as it will help it prime and get oil flowing faster on startup...course you should always prime the motor before first restart anyways.

Post by **Sil240** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:07 am

Liquid Gasket is what nissan tells you to use.At least in my Gasket kit.Don't remember what the FSM says to use.But I believe there is no Oil Pan Gasket.Just don't go crazy with the permatex, use the Red/orange one also.

Post by **Carl H** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:53 pm

permatex grey gasket maker ftw!nothing else should be used as other types wont yeild to the torque applied by bolts and tends to break stuff.

Post by **BoostFab** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:04 pm

use this

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:42 am

Edit: Accidental refresh / double post.

Thanks for the info guys! I will use that as well. Do you know what I am talking about (Permatex Water-pump sealant?) I will use the gray if that is the suggested 'Best Method'. The 'Moment of Truth' is approaching rapidly. (for the snout)

Sil240,The oil-pan 'gasket' is just sealant as far as I can tell. I'm going to clean and remove it here in a few minutes. I remember stripping my oil-pan when i rebuilt the SBC in my Impala SS.

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:58 am

Carl H wrote:i highly sudgest filling your new n1 pump with assembly lube as it will help it prime and get oil flowing faster on startup...course you should always prime the motor before first restart anyways.

Carl,What type of lube is it? If I go to an AutoZone and ask for 'Assembly Lube' _should_ the attendant have a clue? Is it similar to cam lube?.. Just went to SumittRacing, is this what you are talking about? (below) Do you suggest literally filling the pump with the fluid or just making sure it is well lubricated and filling with some engine oil before I attempt to start it? (I know about priming before you start, but thanks for the remind! ) Also, on another thread you said something about dis-assembling the pump and red loc-titing the screws. Is this a normal thing, or more of a race thing? Just wondering. Thanks!

http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku ?
Modified by l0nestar at 1:32 PM 1/19/2007

Post by **Shocker** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:38 am

just use this stuff right here for assembly lube...

no really, when you take the pan off really make sure you remove all the excess gasket from both the block and the pan. That way when you reinstall in, its a very nice seal.. oil leaks are nasty. Dont over torque the pan bolts either..

Post by **Stealth-Z** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:07 am

gawdzilla wrote:i think its possible to remove the oil pump without removing the pan. you'll just find it is a lot easier if you break the seal between the pump and the pan by removing the pan first.

also, if you remove the pan, its easy to pry at the pump from the back if its stuck on there. there are 2 dowels that help line the pump up to the block.

another thing to note is if you do not drop the pan just a little bit that regulator bolt on the bottom might interfere with the pan.

i would drop the pan, its not a big deal. liquid gasket that you can just clean off and redo. just try not to get crap into the pan while you're doing it. plus it gives you a chance to glance at your bottom end

You may be able to get the pump out without lowering the pan. But getting it back in is a different story. This was one persons idea of how to get the pump installed without lowering the pan...

Post by **Shocker** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:31 am

I agree with Stealth.. the crossmember makes it a ***** to get the oil pan back on.. especially w/o a car lift. its just tight and awkward.. I learned this lesson the hard way when I did my old Ka's timing chain, I didnt seal the pan well enough.. and what do you know.. leaky leaky... When I did the RB the motor was out of the car, so it was cake. nice seal.

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:01 am

Well, This thread has been moved just a few up to a new one:

zer...37295

*sigh* This is going to be a longer project than I had anticipated... I may as well just blueprint it now.

Here is a hint:

I think I'm gonna either drink a beer, or take a nap before I go into work in 2 hours.

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:02 am

Hey, and it even has a 'Spill Proof Cap!' Thanks, it is what I have _always_ wanted. I think I may need some soon.

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:04 am

My Gosh Stealth-Z, I want to know who to _NOT_ take work to after seeing _that_. Scares me! Now that is the reason I do all of my own work...

Post by **Stealth-Z** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:20 am

l0nestar wrote:My Gosh Stealth-Z, I want to know who to _NOT_ take work to after seeing _that_. Scares me! Now that is the reason I do all of my own work...

A few years ago I purchased what was supposed to be a disassembled complete RB26 less the block. Thought it would work out great for the RB30 block. Well, the oil pump was just one of the suprises. Much of the parts and bolts were expensive paperweights.Before I sold some of the parts from it I had them checked out at the machine shop first. I just cannot sleep at night knowing I deliberetly sold crap to someone!

Don't feel to bad about the crank collar. I had it installed on my RB30 crank.

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:33 am

Stealth-Z wrote: Don't feel to bad about the crank collar. I had it installed on my RB30 crank.

Stealth-Z, My Gosh... an RB30DETT into an old Fairlady. Nice! I bet that thing will move and surprise a _lot_ of people!

I would feel the exact same way about selling parts to people, knowing full well they were bad. I know that I am most definitely NOT the only person in this situation either. Now I have to get on the phone to find a reputable place to have it installed at. I just emailed GTR Shop to inquire about getting one shipped here. Which collar did you use? Was it bolt on or welded in? I have a problem paying $100+ for just the collar... I see you live in Sacramento, but how much (if you don't mind me asking) did you pay for your collar + installation? (you can email me this if you want..) Did you have anything else done to the crank while it was in the shop (other than balanced of course!) (Micro polish, lightened, etc.)? Thanks!
Modified by l0nestar at 9:14 PM 1/19/2007

Post by **Stealth-Z** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:19 am

I have the JUN collar. Got it about a year ago from http://www.rhdjapan.com for $139.00 plus about $10.00 shipping.The machinist turned down the crank snout, heated up the collar and then press fit it on. Then drilled and threaded the set screws.

As for the install price? Have not received the bill yet. Everything has been balanced now, I am waiting on a time to assemble it. My preference is to be there for assembly. The machinist has no problems with that. It is just a matter of me getting some time off from work to do it.

This is the current mess the motor will eventually go into.http://www.fairladyzg.com/body.htm

Post by **Darius** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:00 pm

"Don't feel bad about the crank collar" was exactly what I was going to say. Quite a few guys in the forum have fully rebuilt their motors now, so there should be more than enough threads for you to read on the topic.

Post by **l0nestar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:48 pm

I dunno man, the search function here is kinda.. crappy..

I'm trying to see _what_ I would need to rebuild my bottom end or possibly blueprint my motor. I know that when I pull my crank out, I can inspect the bearings and I assume that will give me an idea of if I need to proceed any further than the crank. Suggestions? I'm debating between freshening the crank or going for a full blueprint. I know that if I went blueprint, I would, more or less, be getting a 'new' motor, but I am interested in what the approximate price would be. I am not interested in replacing the pistons or over-bore. Just stock and possibly a metal head-gasket. I'm keeping the stock turbo (for a while) to get used to the motor / chassis combo. I'm not really looking at over 300 whp (I know, stock snail is not adequate... but in time ) I don't have a problem with replacing something if, a.) it is broke, b.) it is going to break soon, or c.) It is a common wear / failure point. But honestly, just the collar and balance is looking good right now... (since I already have enough stuff to worry about :angry

All I really want to do is get my engine in the chassis, then onto a track by spring/ summer 07

I will be calling for machine shops around here on Tuesday.

Post by **Stealth-Z** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:30 am

Here is an idea of what the stock RB25 internals can handle.http://forums.hybridz.org/show...limit

Interesting that your oil pump is the newer style.

The RB20 that was originally going into my Z had the short crank and the new style pump. I am wondering if the factory did this. The motor was out of a later model R32 and had low Km. It did not appear to have been replaced.

Just my opinion but I am begining to think this crank collar modification is somewhat over rated. Why go through a partial rebuild? Just put it together and run it. You purchased it as a running motor not a rebuildable core.

Once you get deeper into disassembly, you will get the "As long as it's apart syndrome."

Post by **Carl H** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:16 am

ive heard horror stories of the n1 pump backing plates seperating from the pump because the screws worked loose...not a good thing to loose oil pressure at 8k+ rpm...i did it to fill the pump with assembly lube and also to loctite the screws in, make sure you use an impact screwdriver to get them out else they will strip.better to be safe than sorry.

Remove Oil Pump

Remove Oil Pump

Re: Remove Oil Pump (l0nestar)

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Re: Remove Oil Pump (Darius)

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