Recieved my Import Auto-Performance Equal Length Manifold

[j-z]

no i wont be making any. check this guy out. http://www.lovefab.com right now hes putting an h22 turbo air/water intercooled in the back of a del sol. should be cool to see what it does when hes done. if i paid $700 for a mani i would expect to get something of ^ that quality. not whatever this cheap rip thingy is.

[Nathan]

You also have to consider the number of boosted hondas compared to the number of boosted 240's, in order to make a profit welling KA manifolds, you are going to have to sell them for more, it's just a matter of volume. Also, development is something you pay for with every manifold too, it's much harder to figure out placement of a turbo on a KA than it is a Honda...the requirements are different. Ie: KA, can't hit the MC, have to clear AC lines, does it have ABS? that matters etc. Honda: dont hit the radiator. It's a bit easier on the honda so there is less development time. Comparing honda manifolds to 240 manifolds isn't very fair at all imo. Also, I would be interested to know what gauge stainless he's using, what kind in particular, how thick flanges are etc. All of that is very important in manifold design. I KNOW that 8 ga. mild steel is pretty damned sturdy as it's thick as hell, easy to weld, and doesn't expand as much as stainless does.

[TrunkMonkey]

You also have to consider the number of boosted hondas compared to the number of boosted 240's, in order to make a profit welling KA manifolds, you are going to have to sell them for more, it's just a matter of volume.

bingo.

i'm always hearing people complain about the price of certain KA aftermarket parts. they look at the price of honda, dsm, or even SR parts and wonder why some KA items cost so much. it all has to do with demand. as popular as the KA is becoming, it still has a long way to go when compared to other engines.

-demetrius

[j-z]

comparing one turbo 4 cylinder manifold to another turbo 4 cylinder manifold is equal as can be. hondas you have to clear ALOT more stuff then on the ka. once you have a jig made thats all you need than you can just whip em out. it looks like there is ALOT more development time with the lovefab sst mani than this thing were talking about. it has a true merge collector, high quality stainless, and high quality flanges. then look at the other thing. wtf? i bet if you guys got together and send him a bare block and head and specific measurements on where to place things he would make one of those sst manis for the same price. and i dont really see how you have to jack the price way up to make profit.

[Nathan]

I fail to see how a fwd honda is similar to a rwd nissan in the least. With the exception of having the same number of cylinders, they are about as different as possible. Especially, when you consider the volume argument I stated earlier. Yes, the lovefab mani's look nice no doubt, but is their functionality really increased over the IAP mani? I don't think theres a big difference. The true merge collector argument sure sounds nice, but what's it really matter? On the IAP mani, the runners all come into the collecter at a very nice, relatively straight angle, and immediately feed straight into the turbo. The exhaust stream is just going to get broken up and hit all kinds of turbulence at the turbine anyway, so what's it matter? Also, I still contend that I dont care for stainless, it expands more than mild steel, it is harder to weld, and it is more prone to cracking. Sure it looks nice, but you can kiss the idea of a low key engine bay goodbye, and it's likely you'll have to deal with cracking on it. Also, the lovefab mani's dont look to incorporate any kind of bracing. This is all a mute argument anyway as it doesn't appear lovefab (wtf kinda name is that?) makes KA manifolds anyway. I know I'm sure as hell not about to send him an entire engine, thats dumb as hell.

[j-z]

no dude a bare block and head like a spare. not the motor out of your car. a fwd honda and a rwd nissan is totally different. but the turbo manifold is almost the same thing. not saying that you can swap the two. but the same principle is used when making one or the other. and the merge collector on the lovefab mani flows alot smoother than that other thing. you see no bracing on his mani because they dont need any. theyre strong and proven. and how is stainless more prone to cracking than mild steel? stainless is used on all of the high power vehicles. it only cracks if it wasnt built right. which cody at lovefab has no problem with. yeah he doesnt make any ka manifolds but like i said if you send him something to mock up on hell most likely do it for you. therefore you will have something that is worth your money, QUALITY.

[Nathan]

no dude a bare block and head like a spare

I know...still, thats at least a hundred bucks just to ship one way, and not too many people keep spare whole engines around. Also, it's a proven fact that stainless mani's crack more than mild. The reason you see them on all the high powered cars is all the owners can afford a little bit o' bling and bare stainless transfers less heat than bare mild steel. Nobody wants to coat stainless, thats why you always see them. I'm still saying the merge collector doesn't matter a damned bit when in about 1 millisecond of time, the whole exhaust stream is going to go blasting through what amounts to a fan blade spinning at 100,000 rpms. It might matter a shade more if I had a turbine housing that was nicely polished up inside or something, but I dont and neither do 99% of people, it's just a moot point to me. This is a stupid argument, why don't you have a mani fabbed up by lovefab and come back and tell us how it is? It's possible it'd be a very viable option but right now the IAP mani is the ONLY equal length KA mani on the market that I am aware of. Until that changes, then frankly, they can charge a relatively high price for it. (high as compared to jgs etc.) It still isn't like it costs 1200 bucks ie: full race.

[j-z]

i bet the collector design does make a difference. and i dont think that race teams use stainless for bling. the stainless that youre talking about cracking is most likely the cheap **** you see on ebay. ive never seen/heard of one these high quality stainless manis crack. this goes for lovefab, full-race, super t, kooks, kiwi etc. i wont be going through lovefab as im most likely gonna end up doing my own stainless jgs log mani. youre right this is a stupid argument. i was just expressing my opinion that the iap manifold isnt worth what it cost. look at how much you get when you buy product a and look at what you get when you buy product b for the same x amount of dollars. ya know?

[andrave]

why does everyone like stainless for manifolds? sure it looks prettier but its MORE prone to cracking and its harder to weld when it does...

[Nathan]

I understand what your saying, I'm just saying that you CANNOT buy product B for the same amount of money. Full race has talked about a KA mani, but we all know it'll be the usual 1200, which is almost twice what the IAP mani is. Also, it's not the cheap mani's I've heard of cracking, it's the JIC's, customs, and yes...even a full race. I'd bet you dollars to pesos that the race teams DO care about looks, and also use stainless because it has better heat transfer properties than mild steel, unless the mild is coated. Also, they aren't nearly as worried about longevity of it

[TurboKA37]

i wish i had a welder and welding abilities. along with a mandrel bending machine. that way i could sell all kinds of custom piping, manifolds, and exhausts for a decent price to you guys. i wouldnt mind making a small profit cus i enjoy making things such as these. the lovefab manifolds look really nice and they come with a lifetime warranty so i wouldnt really care if stainless was a bit more prone to cracking. but the fact is that lovefab doesnt make a manifold for the KA and you do not know what they would charge to make one for you so there is no way you can make a valid arguement. does anyone have a dyno chart showing the difference between a log and equal-length manifold on the same car? im really interested to see what the difference would be. i understand that a equal length mani will allow exhaust gases to hit the turbine at equal intervals but i really dont think that would make much if any difference in spool time or peak hp. this is assuming that both maifolds match the head nicely and have equally sized runners (thickness)

[MarkEmark]

I for one think the manifold looks very nice!

Looks like the quality is top-notch, and it should be an improvement over the simple log-manifolds--let us know how it goes.

I don't know why some people are so belligerent-seems like there's always someone there to attempt to bring someone's ideas/purchases down. Robert's obviously happy and excited about his purchase-so i'm happy for him. Who cares what kind of deal one can get if "such and such" happens in the imagined world of the hypothetical. As it stands, that's the best manifold available for the KA-T for the cheapest price. Period. People need to keep their comments about what THEY'D do if they had the money, or a KA-T for that matter, (as if anyone cares), to themselves.

[TurboKA37]

by the way, i also think that the IAP manifold is a great buy and looks to be of great quality. definatley shows that the KA-T aftermarket is going in the right direction

[j-z]

mark- what you just posted was YOUR opinion. what i posted was MY opinion. i was just voicing what i thought about this mani. and well, you all know now that i dont think its worth what it cost. i have no intention in bringing this guys purchase down, thats just gay. i will hit cody up later today and see what he can do. hes a nice guy and maybe yall people can get yourselves something worth your hard earned cash.

[275Performance]

edited

[j-z]

welp good news guys! i feel bad to kinda jack this guys thread. but since it was mentioned and asked here ima post it here too. i talked to cody at lovefab and he said to make a ka mani would be the same price of the sst on his site which is $700 i believe. the mani would be the sst style with mounting the turbo on top and a ext wg flange. he just needs a mock up block and head. now us ka people have a better option.

[Nathan]

welp good news guys! i feel bad to kinda jack this guys thread.

Then start a new one...I still doubt anybody is about to send him a whole motor, thats ridiculous. Your best bet is finding someone local who wants a mani and will let him use their car as a testbed of sorts. Also, fitment for a mani is hard to do with a 240 and should really be done ON a car, the master cylinder is a *****. Oh, and it's 825 with shipping Thats still 175 bucks more than the IAP.

[j-z]

this subject isnt that big of a deal to just post. he guys if you want a nice mani call this guy. yeah. what i figured was if someone local to him wanted to drop a ka off at his shop. beat up broke down kas are abundunt. he wont have a problem at all fabing a mani up with just a head and block. thats what he told me all he needs. i mean **** he opened up his own shop and is throwing an h22 in the back of a del slo so im sure he knows what hes doing. he must have went up in price cuase i havent checked his prices out in a while. its still well worth it to dish out for something of higher quality. im done

[fiznat]

Im happy for you guys with the IAP manis... but $700 really just is TOO MUCH. I can understand that a lot of effort went into the design of these things and all that, but comeon...the're mild steel pipes welded together. I really hate the market for import parts... it seems that companies feel like they can just charge whatever cause people will pay it. I want IAP to come on and tell us what kind of profit margin theyre runnin on a $700 mani... Its certanly possible that I dont know what I'm talking about, but I bet actual cost is a *lot* lower than the price.

EDIT: it might not even be IAP thats makin the money, but dammit SOMEBODY is makin hardcore cash down the line there someplace.

[j-z]

thank you thats exactly what im trying to say too. yeah once they have a jig made its nothing after that. just plain ole mild steel welded together. is it even tig welded? thats why i say what the mani really is worth. i mean lets break it down. they probably get the head flange for $25 or so maybe cheaper a wg flange for prob $8 and all of that mild steel piping doesnt cost that much. they probably pay $100 or so for all of that piping maybe a lil more than but not to much. so lets say they probably spend around $150-$200 on materials alone. thats giving them some to play with too. and it doesn take long to weld it together if you have a jig made which they do. it most likely takes 2-3 hours to weld that thing. i just cant see it taking any longer. well lets see if its tig or miged first. and oh yeah i forgot to add in their ghetto collector. thats another $50 or so. so total material cost is around $225-250? this is my guess im not saying this is what they spend. so yeah if theyre producing these manis someones bankin for sure. now im done sorry

[alan-n]

Oh wow, that sounds like basic economics supply and demand. Until someone beats the IAP manifold for what it is at that price. If, ands or buts.... Money talks BS walks.

[Nathan]

It should be mentioned that the price recently dropped to 550 per manifold Unfortunately, it dropped AFTER I bought mine.

[Ubernoober]

Since I am in the market for a mani, I thought I would throw in my own largely worthless opinion.Revhard (and other cast "log" styles): Heavy-duty cast, largely indestructable and good heat retention. "Stocklike" appearance for discreet Turbo-cizing (Look Mr. Po-po. It came from the factory that way). Keeps the turbo up close on the engine. Direct wastegate positioning with little chance for pulses to bypass the gate and go to the turbo instead.IAP: Equal length is a large improvement in efficiency. Design looks sturdy and unlikely to crack or break. Well matched flange and ports. Can probably call for a somewhat customized design.

Let me first say this.... I prefer almost any equal length over a log style. I expect to pay a lot for my turbo setup and the last thing I want is a built-in limit from a given manifold design. SSA and IAP are the only currently offered non-custom-ordered equal lengths that I have seen (help if you know otherwise). The problem I have with the IAP is that the area directly entering the turbo is ugly, and I mean that in a design way not a beauty way. If they are going to put the wastegate out to the side like that, the merge zone needs to have a larger plenum area and the gate port needs to be pulled down off the flange. It bothers me that two of the exuast runners nearly bypass the location of the wastegate port. Not only that, but the wastegate is on a rather long standoff outside of the flowpath. Its like watching a Bernoulli aspirator in action. I think the basics are there, but it needs refinement. Bonk me if I'm wrong.

[Ubernoober]

Oh ya, and the prices are the prices. Even domestics can get reamed. Go look up the price for a set of Hooker Super-Comps that fit a 1970 Torino GT 351C. Made out of plinky 16-18 gauge steel too. Ya, THAT kind of price.

[Nathan]

Well, I'm through arguing about the design, but what I will say is that from the people who have their cars running with it, I haven't heard anything but good. Everyone I've talked to has noted a marked improvement in spoolup times and Marc's personal vehicles make more power per their modifications than similarly setup vehicles using different mani's. Hopefully with any luck I'll throw my two cents in on the power side of the argument soon

[WDRacing]

The ETD looks ok to me Nathan. I'd probably do about an hour or so of porting and cleaninf prior to shipping one out though if it were my product.

JZ, do you weld? Cause you don't sound all that experienced in the field. Properly done mig welding will last forever. Mig is also easier and quicker then tig, which is a benefit when building anything for mass production. Tig can be made to look pretty, thats the BIG bonus everyone gets. But you can grind and polish your mig welded jobs to make them look just as nice.

LoveFab shouldn't require a block at all, they should require a head. Since the mani comes nowhere close to the block. They also need model specific manifolds. Like mentioed earlier, things like ABS and whatnot make a difference.

It isn't as easy as your making it appear to just "make a jig".

WD

[alan-n]

Speaking of MIG welds and Mild steel, here we go with this debate again. The main reason race cars use stainless steel is because of one thing... .weight. If daily driving reliable and heat were a concern, mild steel rules over stainless. That is the ONLY reason stainlesss is prefered.

But for the daily driver, and materical cost for cost, mild steel is thicker and less shinier of a surface so it radiates less heat... to have the same effect with stainless you need a professional ceramic coat.

As for MIG welding vs TIG welding.... we are welding steel here not aluminum nor magnesium so as far as strength, reliability is concern. TIG welding provides no advantages besides the bling factor.

Once again the IAP rules the roost until someone can provide something better than what it is at a comparable price.

[den240]

RN240, how is that IAP mani holding up?

I may be buying one soon if ETD keeps delaying the one I ordered from them...

[Nathan]

The ETD looks ok to me Nathan.WD

No doubt, if it'd been on the market when I was shopping manifolds and the GB had been going, I'd have given it serious consideration. Just from looking at pictures, its probably my second favorite (I gotta root for what I have ya know )