Rebuild, take 3

[float_6969]

So I've been bad about keeping my peeps updated on my engine status. So here's a little history if you don't know it. I bought my CA as a font cut back around '05. I installed it shortly after with a FMIC, 3" turbo back, KA TB, Apex N1 single, and an Apex PowerFC w/550's. I beat the crap out of it for about a year until the piston rings started leaking so badly that it was burning so much oil that I couldn't drive it on the street anymore. So I pulled the motor and had it rebuilt with some custom CP pistons with 10:1 compression (I thought it was 9.5:1 at the time) and 83.5mm overbore. I also put new bearings in it, new oil pump, new water pump, polished combustion chambers, port matched intake manifold, polished head, an S15 SR BB T28, SSAC turbo mani, mid mount intercooler, oil cooler, and an SDS EM4F (standalone). This did me well until I realized that placing the air filter in the fender well for a CAI with out the plastic fender liner is a bad idea because the rocks from the tire punch holes in the air filter and then debris gets into the turbo and mess up the compressor impeller. So I swapped in the stock CA T25 because I had it laying around. I cranked that thing up to 15psi and ran it like that until somebody offered me more money than I could pass up for my S13 w/a KA-T. I then bought an S14 to swap the CA into. I ran it with the same setup as in the S13 (minus a LTA intercooler instead of the mid-mount) for a while until TMS (themadscientist) offered to sell me his HKS turbo kit, which I couldn't pass up. I had to remove the brake booster and redesign the braking system to get it to fit, but fit it did. Then I had an oil filter fail, and ruin the head and all of the bearings in the block . So rebuild number two. This was supposed to be a simple rebuild, but since the head was ruined I had to put in my 4 port head I've had laying around forever. I port matched and polished it (including combustion chambers and the sub-manifold, and a valve job) and put it all together. It didn't run like it did before, but my intercooler setup wasn't what it should have been and I had also installed some HKS 264's and cam gears I'd had for a while so I wrote it off as that. I hadn't had a chance to tune it yet either, so I wasn't too worried about the poor performance. I should have known better. I discovered that the HKS 264's HAVE to be indexed (ie; use the cam gears to set the cam timing). I hadn't done this, so I pulled the spark plugs to set TDC so I could index the cams and discovered that the #4 spark plug was in BAD shape. The ground strap was melted and the porcelain was cracked and a piece was missing. I did a compression test and found that all 4 cylinders were low, but #4 was REALLY low. I could also see that there were some marks on the top of the piston. So I pulled the engine and tore it down. The company that built the engine (no longer in business...surprise, surprise) failed to the debur the second ring on the fourth cylinder. This caused the ring to badly score the cylinder. I'm guessing this caused the issue with the spark plug. So now I'm on engine rebuild #3. I also found out that the last machine shop had re-surfaced my flywheel, but they're not supposed to do that with a steel flywheel with a hardened surface PLUS they didn't step it properly and it's a JUN flywheel, so I have no way to find out what the step was supposed to be. I also found out the my SPEC Stage 3 clutch was finally near the end of it's life (it and the flywheel were installed when I first bought the motor, well over 50K HARD miles ago) Anyway, I'm using a different engine builder now(of course). This guy does the work himself (the last place just had guys working for him and it always seemed like it was a different guy every week) and seems to know is stuff. Current setup will be;
-Supertech pistons, 84.5mm, 8.5:1 compression (the overbore will yield 8.75:1 if I did my math correctly). They're not great compared to the CP's, but they won't be noisy when cold like the CP's were and won't wear the cylinders like the CP's did. (there was no crosshatch left on the cylinder with the CP's at 40k miles and compression had dropped from 215psi right after break in, to 195psi right before I tore it down after the oil filter failure).
-Supertech rings, but the 2nd ring has been modified by Total Seal to be a gapless ring. My plan is to help cut down on my CA's infamous amounts of copious blowby.

2013-10-16-1757.jpg by nismoman240sx, on Flickr

2013-10-16-1758.jpg by nismoman240sx, on Flickr

2013-10-16-1761.jpg by nismoman240sx, on Flickr

2013-10-16-1759.jpg by nismoman240sx, on Flickr
-King Bearings coated by Calico (as per my new machinist suggestion)
-Stock rods with ARP rod bolts (my machinist said that the big end of the rods were still perfectly round after the ARP rod bolts. You should still ALWAYS check the rods for roundness when you change the hardware, but many other ppl have had the same results as I had)
-SR ACT street/track steel flywheel

2013-10-16-1755.jpg by nismoman240sx, on Flickr
-SR ACT 6 puck clutch with sprung hub.

2013-10-16-1756.jpg by nismoman240sx, on Flickr
-Get to the dyno and tune it for current setup and see what this HKS turbo setup does at 25psi!

[tommey]

The supertech pistons are nice, I have built two engines over the 550 hp mark with no problems.
The CP's standard wrist pins tend to break at those power levels.

Keep in mind that total seal rings often is a problem on turbo engines.
Some blocks get worn out quickly by them and others don't.

Better luck this time.
FYI, KING makes the Acl bearings, but I have nothing bad to say about normal KING bearings.

[r34 gtr]

Woooord! Good luck with it man, and holler at me if you need anything.

Oh and post pictures, dammit.

[float_6969]

tommey, I'm glad to hear you've had such great success with the supertech pistons. I was a bit leery of them, but they seem fine. They don't have an oil feed for the wrist pins from the oil rings, but I can't imagine that is going to be an issue.

As for the rings, I went back and forth about the total seal rings. I've read just about every pro and con on the web. AFAIK, nobody has tried them on the CA. I decided to be the guinea pig. I hope I don't regret it. I'm really hoping it cuts down on blowby on this engine.

I was just going to go with Clevites again, but my builder was wanting a better bearing for this power level. I considered the ACL Race bearings, but he could get the King bearings and have them coated by Calico for about the same money and he said he's NEVER had a failure with that combo, so I went with his advice.

Tim, unless you've got a baller intake manifold laying around, I'm pretty much set. The machine shop has all the parts, so no pics for now.

[tommey]

"A better bearing" ?
That`s a really weird statement from a engine builder, they usually know better.

A friend has been running Total seal rings in his CA for a long time, dont think he has any trouble with it.

Anyway i hope this works out for you this time.

I am a little curious why you`ve had problems with blowby, i have never experienced any trouble with CP rings.

[Izento]

I am very curious about this infamous blow by. My tuner says I'm not making as much power as he would like because of blow by. So, this is common in CAs even with new rings (I don't have new rings btw), or does the CA just wear through rings rapidly?

The total seal rings will make way higher compression, right? Isn't it harder to control higher compression? Meaning, it's harder to run higher boost because of increased temps, etc.

Please critique any of my information and offer your opinion as to what is true and what is hearsay.

[tommey]

The problems with an un bored block is that they usually are worn uneven, especially in the top of the cylinder (where it matters the most).
But on a bored and correctly gapped engine you should not have problems with this.

[boost_boy]

Dayumm Ryan,

I've heard this song before . Seriously, I think you're doing the right thing by rebuilding that puppy. Sometimes even when you do things by the numbers, the completed unit may not have the characteristics that you were expecting. The only thing I'm concerned with again is the HKS camshafts. If you can recall, one of my motors sports HKS cams as well (264 w/8.5mm intake and 272 w/8.5mm exhaust) which has been a very funny acting motor. It gives weird compression readings on the #1 and #4 cylinders with #1 being the lowest. I've used these camshafts before with good success and normal compression ratios, but as of lately, those weird reading have been around. Rebuilt engine has about 4 miles on it because the car continues to overheat (possible radiator) and also because the car is not registered nor insure, so I drive it around the neighborhood. Keep us posted on this and I'll updated the family on mine as well.

[float_6969]

"A better bearing" ?
That`s a really weird statement from a engine builder, they usually know better.

A friend has been running Total seal rings in his CA for a long time, dont think he has any trouble with it.

Anyway i hope this works out for you this time.

I am a little curious why you`ve had problems with blowby, i have never experienced any trouble with CP rings.

I'm not quoting him with the statement better bearing. I asked for his opinion and he said something like, "The Clevites are good, but for the power level and RPM's you're talking about, I'd like to see something with a steel backing and a smoother coating." I mentioned the ACL Race bearings, and he said he didn't have any experience with them, but that he has used the Calico coated King bearings a lot and had a lot of luck with them. There are NO local machine shops with lots of sport compact engine experience, but he had built a few SR20's and a bunch of B-series engine and hadn't had any of them come back and was willing to give me contact info for people he had built engines for that were happy with his work.

I'm REALLY glad to hear about your friend with the Total Seal rings.

The blowby issues have been since the first time I installed the engine when it was used, and has continued with both of the last rebuilds. Even on the first rebuild that had good compression, I STILL had enough crankcase pressure that I would consistently blow out the dipstick. It was worse with the last rebuild. CP rings both times. Maybe the builder over-gapped the rings? I know they were over-gapped this last time, but the first time, I had really good compression. I never checked the end gap when I tore it down, so I don't know what it was like. I have done A LOT of stuff to try and deal with all of the crankcase pressure I get. What finally seemed to solve it (and this was even with the last rebuild with the big ring end gap) was to totally eliminate the pipe that goes from the top of the oil filter mount and run a BIG hose from that pipe up to an SR20 air/oil separator and then run the outlet into the valve cover. That seemed to finally move enough air to keep the dipstick blowing out, but I also never ran more than 7psi, so I don't know how it would have acted with more boost.

I am very curious about this infamous blow by. My tuner says I'm not making as much power as he would like because of blow by. So, this is common in CAs even with new rings (I don't have new rings btw), or does the CA just wear through rings rapidly?

The total seal rings will make way higher compression, right? Isn't it harder to control higher compression? Meaning, it's harder to run higher boost because of increased temps, etc.

Please critique any of my information and offer your opinion as to what is true and what is hearsay.

I have always had problems with blowby, and I have noticed many other members have mentioned it as well, but I don't know if it's an infamous problem.

Total Seal rings shouldn't make WAY higher compression, but they will make higher compression than a gapless ring with the same end gap. The concerns are that with higher boost levels that the rings can "lift" away from the cylinder wall because of excessive combustion pressures. This is more likely to happen at higher RPM's as well.

Dayumm Ryan,

I've heard this song before . Seriously, I think you're doing the right thing by rebuilding that puppy. Sometimes even when you do things by the numbers, the completed unit may not have the characteristics that you were expecting. The only thing I'm concerned with again is the HKS camshafts. If you can recall, one of my motors sports HKS cams as well (264 w/8.5mm intake and 272 w/8.5mm exhaust) which has been a very funny acting motor. It gives weird compression readings on the #1 and #4 cylinders with #1 being the lowest. I've used these camshafts before with good success and normal compression ratios, but as of lately, those weird reading have been around. Rebuilt engine has about 4 miles on it because the car continues to overheat (possible radiator) and also because the car is not registered nor insure, so I drive it around the neighborhood. Keep us posted on this and I'll updated the family on mine as well.

I'll keep a close eye on the compression ratio numbers. They were all pretty even on this last rebuild, and had the 2nd ring been de-burred and not damaged the cylinder wall, I think it would have been the same as the others.

Is that the motor with the custom intake manifold?

[boost_boy]

"YES" Very funny acting engine.

[float_6969]

Is it possible that IM isn't flowing evenly? That would give varying compression numbers like you're seeing and 1 and 4 would be the worst flowing if it did have a poor design. I'd be willing to bet those compression numbers would even out on a stock IM.

[dash]

compression test rpm so low, i doubt an intake manifold would make a difference in flow.
That would have to be one 'horrible' manifold imo

[float_6969]

True. The low port velocities from cranking shouldn't show any poor manifold design unless it's REALLY bad. Ignore my previous post, LOL

[float_6969]

First post updated with pictures of SR flywheel, SR ACT clutch kit, and Supertech 2nd rings (They're Napier 2nd rings BTW) modified by Total Seal to be gapless rings.

[tommey]

Any progress here? :-)

[boost_boy]

What I have learned is that when you decide to add aftermarket pistons in your old standard bores, one rarely takes into consideration of the expansion rate of the aftermarket pistons compared to the softer oem pistons. The oem pistons are very forgiving in a not-so-perfect bore, whereas the aftermarket pistons with the chrome moly rings will be a bit fussy and not yiel equal compression amongst indicidual cylinders. The naked eye cannot identify a distorted bore thus sticking aftermarket pistons and rings in your freshly honed stock bore can very well cause you instantaneous disappointment. The stock nissan pistons will forgive you and your out of round bores, to a certain extent .

I am currently going through this as well because my freshly re-done engine had changing compression ratios that were just nerve-racking to say the least. Cold compression tests yield lower than optimal numbers, but because the engine was cold, they were somewhat expected. Then the engine was warmed-up to a blistering 198* and the compression went to down in some cylinders and went up in others. Then when the engine started cooling down, the compression levels were at a totally different level and as the engine got colder the compression readings kept going back down until it got cold enough to return the readings back to what they were when the engine was completely cold. That told me alot about how my CP pistons expand and retract and also told me that my bores were out of round, even though they were well within nissan specifications. I decided to drop the block off for an 84mm pistons upgrade (bore) using JE pistons and after 12 years of using this particular motor with it's standard 83mm bore and 3 honing jobs on the stock bore, it is well over-due. So Ryan I know what you are going through, my brother .

[float_6969]

Any progress here? :-)

Machine shop called yesterday to say it was ready to pick up. I was busy today and wasn't able to get by before they closed to pick it up. I"m going to pick it up tomorrow after I get done with work. I have plans with my family all this weekend, so I won't get started on re-assembly until next week.

[float_6969]

What I have learned is that when you decide to add aftermarket pistons in your old standard bores, one rarely takes into consideration of the expansion rate of the aftermarket pistons compared to the softer oem pistons. The oem pistons are very forgiving in a not-so-perfect bore, whereas the aftermarket pistons with the chrome moly rings will be a bit fussy and not yiel equal compression amongst indicidual cylinders. The naked eye cannot identify a distorted bore thus sticking aftermarket pistons and rings in your freshly honed stock bore can very well cause you instantaneous disappointment. The stock nissan pistons will forgive you and your out of round bores, to a certain extent .

I am currently going through this as well because my freshly re-done engine had changing compression ratios that were just nerve-racking to say the least. Cold compression tests yield lower than optimal numbers, but because the engine was cold, they were somewhat expected. Then the engine was warmed-up to a blistering 198* and the compression went to down in some cylinders and went up in others. Then when the engine started cooling down, the compression levels were at a totally different level and as the engine got colder the compression readings kept going back down until it got cold enough to return the readings back to what they were when the engine was completely cold. That told me alot about how my CP pistons expand and retract and also told me that my bores were out of round, even though they were well within nissan specifications. I decided to drop the block off for an 84mm pistons upgrade (bore) using JE pistons and after 12 years of using this particular motor with it's standard 83mm bore and 3 honing jobs on the stock bore, it is well over-due. So Ryan I know what you are going through, my brother .

Yea, CP's expand a lot. That was part of the reason I went away from them this build. They were just sooo noisy when cold. The Supertech's shouldn't have that issue, although they aren't NEARLY as nice as the CP pistons and probably won't tolerate as much detonation. Since I'm on E85 (and I'm hoping to be brewing and distilling my own fuel with NO gasoline), I'm not worried about detonation anymore.

[Sideways s12]

what about wiseco's thats what I went with in my motor. The shop that built it has put wisecos in a buddy of mine's 240 with ca that he went 10's with I haven't heard of any problems with them.

Also welcome back to the game float! I know you haven't really left but nice to know your playing with the ca again.

[dash]

any details of your buddy's 10sec ca18 ?

[Sideways s12]

not off the top of my head I can ask exactly what was done I know he had procams port and polish wisecos not sure the comp or bore forged rods 1000cc injectors nistuned and z32 maf? my memory is a little.foggy as he has not been out in awhile.

[Sideways s12]

when I'm not on my phone ill post a vid

[float_6969]

what about wiseco's thats what I went with in my motor. The shop that built it has put wisecos in a buddy of mine's 240 with ca that he went 10's with I haven't heard of any problems with them.

Also welcome back to the game float! I know you haven't really left but nice to know your playing with the ca again.

I never researched Wiseco's because of the issues with the oil squirters, so IDK what type of aluminum they're using.

[Sideways s12]

ahh ok

[float_6969]

Minor update. I picked up the engine and parts yesterday. Tomorrow I will re-assemble the engine, and if the weather is nice, re-install it back in it's home! Pics forthcoming!

[Sideways s12]

nice

[float_6969]

Minor update again. I started re-assembly, but I screwed myself. I accidentally over-gapped one of the piston rings. I have a new set on order, but I'm stuck until that shows up.

[boost_boy]

Minor update again. I started re-assembly, but I screwed myself. I accidentally over-gapped one of the piston rings. I have a new set on order, but I'm stuck until that shows up.

Retard

[tommey]

That sucks!
I have severeal times experienced that the rings are over gapped out of the box also.
Thats really irritating.

[float_6969]

Minor update again. I started re-assembly, but I screwed myself. I accidentally over-gapped one of the piston rings. I have a new set on order, but I'm stuck until that shows up.

Retard

LOL! To my defense, it was my birthday, I was drinking, and I bumped the piston ring grinder with my elbow when I went to shoo the dog away... so it was more clumsiness than anything.

That sucks!
I have severeal times experienced that the rings are over gapped out of the box also.
Thats really irritating.

Yea, I kind of ran into that with the 2nd rings. They were all a bit bigger than what I would have liked (all at .019" end gap IIRC), but Total Seal assured me that the gap they ended up at out of the box was nothing to worry about because they are the gapless set. He said they've run the gaps at .080" on the gapless 2nd rings and had no loss in power, decrease in compression or increase in oil consumption.

Also, this was the first time I've ever had to file the oil control rails for being less than the minimum. (Min for oil control ring gap is usually .015" or greater) All of the top rings were plenty tight and left me the normal amount of grinding (IIRC, they were all at .009" of end gap out of the box).

Other than the odd size issues, the Supertech rings seemed to be of good quality.