Really? They're gonna force the issue here?

[AZhitman]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/22/ci ... rtisement/

See, THIS is a perfect example of why the Right (and a lot of Independents and Libertarians) are PISSED.

Keep pushing and pushing and pushing... there's gonna be a revolution, and the ACLU won't be able to save you.

[96Qowner]

There will always be stupid people. This is another good example of too many laws. People like having laws because it makes them feel like the errant behavior won't happen, and if it does, they want a stern penalty, just in case. This law, whatever the heck it is, allowed someone to ruin a portion of this woman's life. I can't think of any legitimate reason for the complaint or the prosecution. This is the sort of law that allows individuals and groups to be selectively prosecuted. No one could have intended for it to be enforced in this way, but lookey here, it happened.

It's disgusting. But since there will always be stupid people in the world, that's what will happen with this sort of law. Seriously? You can't ask for a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Jewish roommate? Even in said church?

Tuesday. Maybe on Tuesday, people will start taking a different look at government. Maybe law isn't all that lovely.

[AZhitman]

...but you can advertise for a roommate of a certain gender.

Hmmm.

How about a skinny roommate? A nudist roommate? How about a non-smoker? If not, why not?

On a side note, I've apparently run afoul of the law, as I discriminated VERY heavily in renting out my house. Why? BECAUSE IT'S MY HOUSE.

[96Qowner]

...but you can advertise for a roommate of a certain gender.

Hmmm.

How about a skinny roommate? A nudist roommate? How about a non-smoker? If not, why not?

On a side note, I've apparently run afoul of the law, as I discriminated VERY heavily in renting out my house. Why? BECAUSE IT'S MY HOUSE.

LOL, gawd, that reminds me. Back in the day, I once tried to place an ad for a "respectable Freak". The lady at the newspaper wouldn't take it, we argued, was a lost cause, oh well.

[IBCoupe]

Yay, Fair Housing Act of 1968.

If memory serves, there are exceptions for people renting out rooms in their homes as to actual discrimination, but not for advertising in a publication like a newspaper - I can't get to Foxnews.com here, so I don't know how it was advertised. I wish you'd have posted this before 12:20 AM EST, 'cause then I'd have seen it last night and brought my property book with me to work. In the meantime, I'll check and see what the professor posted for notes on that section.

[IBCoupe]

Okay, yep: Fair Housing Act section 803(b)(1) (42 U.S.C. 3603(b)(1)) states that, for rentals, section 804 prohibitions against discrimination don't apply if you don't use a broker or real estate agent (but you're free to use a lawyer, escrow agent, title company, etc.) to sell or rent it on your behalf, and if you don't put out a "publication, posting or mailing, after notice, of any advertisement or written notice" that violates the prohibitions of section 804(c).

Here's what section 804(c) says:

To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation, or discrimination.

I know that there were some cases about mentioning gender, but I don't quite recall. I'll keep looking.

EDIT: So Courts have ruled because you're going to be sharing living spaces and bathrooms, it's okay to advertise that an apartment is same-sex. Now, if a dude posts an ad looking for a female roommate, I'm not sure that he's got the same protection. I don't see anything in the FHA that prohibits against discrimination by sexual orientation, but your State's law might pick up where the FHA left off in 1964.

[IBCoupe]

LOL, gawd, that reminds me. Back in the day, I once tried to place an ad for a "respectable Freak". The lady at the newspaper wouldn't take it, we argued, was a lost cause, oh well.

They're covering their butts. Even if they didn't think it was lewd, there are certain phrases they stay away of in order to avoid violating the FHA, because they're in trouble for posting it.

[AppleBonker]

IBC, question for you. In reading the article, it doesn't seem clear what the rental is. As in, the woman who posted the ad may be renting out a room in her house/condo/apartment. Or, she may be seeking a person to go in on a 2-3 bedroom apartment that she has not yet signed a lease for. Wouldn't those two situations be completely different under the law? I can understand why a law would exist to prevent someone from discriminating when renting out living space. But if she is just looking for someone to help offset the cost of a place she doesn't live in yet, I can't imagine how this would be an issue.

For the record, I think the lawsuit is stupid. I'm not sure who complained, or why they were at a church and not practicing that religion (or they just had a beef with this woman and wanted to see her get in trouble - which doesn't seem very Christian). I certainly wouldn't feel discriminated against in this case. I can tell you for certain that if someone were seeking a Christian roommate and posted an ad identical to this, I would NOT want to live with them and they would not want to live with me. I'm all for getting that out in the open so we don't have a long, uncomfortable 12 month lease to deal with. However, if there was an awesome apartment complex in my area that said they would only rent to Christians, I'd be a bit more annoyed.

[IBCoupe]

God dammit. I hate this stupid work network. Lost my post.

IBC, question for you. In reading the article, it doesn't seem clear what the rental is. As in, the woman who posted the ad may be renting out a room in her house/condo/apartment. Or, she may be seeking a person to go in on a 2-3 bedroom apartment that she has not yet signed a lease for. Wouldn't those two situations be completely different under the law? I can understand why a law would exist to prevent someone from discriminating when renting out living space. But if she is just looking for someone to help offset the cost of a place she doesn't live in yet, I can't imagine how this would be an issue.

My intuition is that the distinction doesn't make a difference. Advertising a discriminatory intent in rental purposes is the same whether you're trying to organize a team to begin a new lease or whether you're trying to give out a new lease, but I haven't done any caselaw research on it, so I could very well be wrong.

For the record, I think the lawsuit is stupid. I'm not sure who complained, or why they were at a church and not practicing that religion (or they just had a beef with this woman and wanted to see her get in trouble - which doesn't seem very Christian). I certainly wouldn't feel discriminated against in this case. I can tell you for certain that if someone were seeking a Christian roommate and posted an ad identical to this, I would NOT want to live with them and they would not want to live with me. I'm all for getting that out in the open so we don't have a long, uncomfortable 12 month lease to deal with. However, if there was an awesome apartment complex in my area that said they would only rent to Christians, I'd be a bit more annoyed.

Not knowing even the particulars of the instant case that are given in the link, I can't speculate on the motivation or circumstances that led to the lawsuit. But, as for your second point about wanting to know about the bigotry, I bet that's something you would discover shortly after you responded to a nondiscriminatory advertisement. I suppose that the intent of the law is a balancing act, on that front, between the cost to you (rhetorically-speaking) of that phone call you wouldn't otherwise make or that email you wouldn't otherwise type up, and the cost to society of publicized (and perhaps implicitly condoned?) bigotry in providing housing.

[AppleBonker]

Interesting. Then there is a lot of illegal crap going on in the CL postings. Though I find it odd that it would be considered discriminatory to seek a similarly-minded individual to share and apartment with. That just seems like good practice to me.

Either way, this seems a bit off. It's illegal for this woman to have a written ad stating "Christian only" but it would be completely legal for her to place an ad that said nothing about religion, but then ask that question immediately upon first meeting the prospective roommate? I don't see how that is helping anyone. It just seems like a waste of time.

With that said, I'm not disputing the legal issue at hand. I'm just pointing out it seems to be a colossal waste of time to prosecute this woman.

[IBCoupe]

Interesting. Then there is a lot of illegal crap going on in the CL postings. Though I find it odd that it would be considered discriminatory to seek a similarly-minded individual to share and apartment with. That just seems like good practice to me.

Either way, this seems a bit off. It's illegal for this woman to have a written ad stating "Christian only" but it would be completely legal for her to place an ad that said nothing about religion, but then ask that question immediately upon first meeting the prospective roommate? I don't see how that is helping anyone. It just seems like a waste of time.

With that said, I'm not disputing the legal issue at hand. I'm just pointing out it seems to be a colossal waste of time to prosecute this woman.

I won't dispute your last comment at all, but I'm not going to say it is a waste of time. It might just be that my unfamiliarity with this area of law could be causing me to miss an important legal question that has yet to be answered. Should this case give rise to a shift in the interpretation of the FHA, it might just be that it's not a complete waste of time. That said, I can't come close to making the claim that this will happen.

Lawyerspeak for "You may be right."

[dusred]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this area the area heavily populated with Muslims? . . that could bring up more questions. . .

If the woman was smart she would just place a regular ad and then extensively interview each person. Eventually she would find a Christian to live with her and everyone would be happy.

[96Qowner]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this area the area heavily populated with Muslims? . . that could bring up more questions. . .

She posted the ad on her own church bulletin board.

[AZhitman]

I'm with IB - I'd hope this would lead to closer scrutiny of the laws on this matter.

If I were perusing the ads, looking for a room to rent, and ran across one that said, "no white males over 6' tall with scruffy facial hair", I'd prefer that to, say, responding to the ad, driving across town, only to be met by a crazy woman with bad memories of her 6' tall, scruffy-faced stepfather molesting her.

Political correctness serves only to further weaken the already pathetically weak among us.

[IBCoupe]

Re: Muslim neighborhood

That probably helps the plaintiff's case.

[AZhitman]

There are no "Muslim neighborhoods".

If you'd like to posit that there are, then feel free to define what makes a neighborhood "Muslim".

[AppleBonker]

Should this case give rise to a shift in the interpretation of the FHA, it might just be that it's not a complete waste of time.

Well, I would agree that it wouldn't be a complete waste, but certainly the defendant would be out at least some time and money, no?

[96Qowner]

Heheh, in a "Muslim neighborhood", is EVERYONE Muslim?