Re: Global Warming Thread

[cireecnop1]

You know there are also farms that, to reduce the methane gases from the manure,run their power of "cow pies" and also their furnaces. Im not to 100%familiar with the theory but it has to do with a sealed system that rotates the manure or something

...gotta go to work but "I'll Be back"

[AZhitman]

EV, I knew you were sharp, but I have a whole new appreciation.

If we were meant to be veggies, we'd have molars in the front.

I have also read the articles about a non-meat reliant society and the environmental impact.

I'm more concerned with what we're doing to our oceans, rivers and lakes, than what we're doing to the skies and atmosphere. I could go on a ROLL about the introduction of non-native fish and aquatic life and the devastation it causes, as well as the runoff issues from pesticides and manure, causing algal blooms that can kill off a million-year-old ecosystem in less than a decade.

BTW - I dated a girl whose parents owned a HUGE egg ranch. Guess what chickens eat?

Chickens.

[AZhitman]

Here's another one to think about:

Ever wonder why the state that is at the FOREFRONT of the "anti-car" movement (California) has the most cars per capita of any state?

Ever wonder why the "rich and famous" who blather on about "pollution" aren't giving up their chauffered limos and SUV's?

It's a "convenient target", it's trendy to blame the automobile.

Piss on the actors and musicians who try to wield their ill-informed and often erroneous influences.

[Clipsed]

I thought this was a Nissan forum, specifically a Versa forum???

[MinisterofDOOM]

Hitman pretty much nailed what I've been burning to say.

If cars are so evil and damaging air so bad, why are some states ELIMINATING their emissions testing programs?

Every time a major "issue" like global warming crops up, it's always conveniently directly related to somebody's agenda.

I was raised by a geologist and am very well educated (not just "informed" by the media and propaganda") on the topic of global warming. I can't even decide which inaccuracies and fallacies to begin rebutting when it comes to the topic.

I thought this was a Nissan forum, specifically a Versa forum???

Close. It's a Nissan owner forum. Specifically, a Versa owner forum.

[AZhitman]

I thought this was a Nissan forum, specifically a Versa forum???

And?

[Ever Victorious]

EV, I knew you were sharp, but I have a whole new appreciation.

Appreciated. I don't like to brag (because while I'm smart, I'm undisciplined, so I'm not good at any one thing) but I was a Johns Hopkins youth when I was in Jr. High. I could have really been something, had high school not happened... but that is a discussion for another day.

Quote »If we were meant to be veggies, we'd have molars in the front. [/quote]That, and our incisors would continuously grow throughout our life, like on rodents.

Quote »I'm more concerned with what we're doing to our oceans, rivers and lakes, than what we're doing to the skies and atmosphere. I could go on a ROLL about the introduction of non-native fish and aquatic life and the devastation it causes, as well as the runoff issues from pesticides and manure, causing algal blooms that can kill off a million-year-old ecosystem in less than a decade.[/quote]This one is of special importance to me, being from the Northwest. We at one time had the absolute greatest salmon industry in the world... not just in quantity, but quality. If you've ever had fresh King salmon out here, you know what I'm talking about.

But we over-fished and over-fished and over-fished and now our salmon runs are so bare we can't do commercial fishing in our own waters... we can only do sport fishing and tribal fishing (through various treaties that only NOW the US government is honoring). So what do we do? We build pens in Puget Sound and bring in Atlantic salmon, and raise them in farms.

So the massive amount of waste concentrates in areas of the Sound, causing dead zones, killing off another of our good fishing sources (Dungeness crab)... and then occasionally there will be a breach in one of these pens and a half million or so Atlantic salmon are suddenly swimming free in the Sound, muscling out what is left of our native population. But since we can't commercially fish because we would kill even MORE native salmon, we have to rely on sport fishers and killer whales to clean up the mess.

Wait, did I mention there is another twist?

Seemingly healthy killer whales have been showing up beached and dead on our shores in unusual numbers lately... noone has found a cause for it yet, but suspicion is that the Navy's new sonar systems they've been testing in our waters have something to do with it.

I thought this was a Nissan forum, specifically a Versa forum???

It is.

We're just having a lively discussion in a civil manner to keep from happening what happened in the last such thread. Something people have to get off their chests, so to speak.

[Jemdawg]

I suppose I'll be the first to state chaos theory, since that is where I generally stand in this discussion. Simply, for those who are not familiar with it, chaos theory states that the universe is essentially randomized and the outcomes produced are the product of chaos, that is unpredictability, and we are not the ones directly causing it. Simply our being here is causing the butterfly effect to be more radical, which is why in the past few years we have had a more randomized amount of big storms. It would be hard to prevent any of the symptomatic results of global warming with us occupying this earth. For all we know, we could have simple sped up the earth's cycles, causing things to happen faster and seem more urgent. Why should we drop all of our cars or do any of the things that we are told to do to prevent this? We shouldn't try to solve a problem with an assumed solution.

[cireecnop1]

EV, I knew you were sharp, but I have a whole new appreciation.

....I'm more concerned with what we're doing to our oceans, rivers and lakes, than what we're doing to the skies and atmosphere......

okay well on the topis of oceans, with the global temperature increasing its causing coral reefs to die of, and i think the term is "bleach". That sucks, since those are the most lively parts of out waters.

[cireecnop1]

Every time a major "issue" like global warming crops up, it's always conveniently directly related to somebody's agenda.

Are you refering to cars needing stricter emissions? or Oil consumption, I'm just curious only because I dont see these as "agendas" but more like solutions. And just to clarify, its not only cars that pollute, but its the major point in this discussion since after all this is a Car forum.

[proxim2020]

I thought this was a Nissan forum, specifically a Versa forum???

There have been numerous conversations as to why this topic exists. Those who do not wish to participate or just check in to see what new information has been posted, can skip this topic altogether.

[proxim2020]

You know there are also farms that, to reduce the methane gases from the manure,run their power of "cow pies" and also their furnaces. Im not to 100%familiar with the theory but it has to do with a sealed system that rotates the manure or something

...gotta go to work but "I'll Be back"

I've seen a system like this before. The company, that made manure enriched topsoils, would place the manure into piles that would rotate every once in a while in huge cylinders. The methane would be captured and converted into electricity by way of burning it. The company was in a very rural area and didn't want to pay the thousands to have electricity run to the property. So they came up with the ingenious idea that costs roughly the same amount of money. The benefit comes from not having to pay a huge electric bill each month.

[7speed]

That's awesome! We're talking about sustainability theories in one of my classes right now, and it's very interesting what some people come up with to reduce their impact.

[proxim2020]

I think we've scratched the surface here with things you could do to reduce your impact. You should share some of the ideas that you've heard.

[Ever Victorious]

Well, here's one that I overlooked initially but in retrospect is an impact reducer...

I don't buy my meat packaged in plastic and styrofoam/plastic containers. I buy from the butcher block at my local Albertsons, so it's wrapped in wax paper. Smaller mass of waste, and it's (eventually) degradable, unlike styrofoam. No different cost for the food itself.

And our state is trying something new:

Taking what would be waste tires, and turning them into new paving surfaces (they are experimenting with two new kinds of "quieter" pavement, one includes the recycled rubber...)

[AZhitman]

We have the reclaimed rubber test highways here in Phoenix (US 60), but DPS hates it - Speeds are increased over 20%.

It's awesome - great grip, and your car sounds virtually silent, very little tire noise.

[Ever Victorious]

Ours is I-5 through Lynnwood, one of the biggest speed traps in the area... so speed is not an issue for me.

I actually hated driving the V over that stuff. I'm used to road noise. The V was a quiet car on NORMAL pavement. When I drove over the rubber pavement in the V, I found myself needing to crank up the stereo because my ears would trick my mind into thinking I had gone completely deaf.

[proxim2020]

And our state is trying something new:

Taking what would be waste tires, and turning them into new paving surfaces (they are experimenting with two new kinds of "quieter" pavement, one includes the recycled rubber...)

I've heard of a few cities that use recycled rubber sidewalks to solve the problem of frost heaves under the sidewalks. It's costly to repair the sidewalk when heaves pop up or roots grow underneath. Freeze thaw cycles also help accelerate the life of the concrete. Rubber sidewalks are more flexible and can expand way more than concrete without breaking. It's very plentiful and God is it ever so soft on the knees. I've walked on it before and I love the stuff.

On a side note, I'm watching Headline News and who comes on? Al Gore. Oh God . He's now preaching that the temperatures around the world will increase by 43 degrees by 2010. Hmmm, so you mean to tell me that the 105 degree summers we've had down here for the last 30 years will all of a sudden jump to 148 in 3 years? I think he's heading the Global Warming Hysteria. I'm all for informing people, but everything that comes out of his mouth is meant to scare you into changing your life.

It seems like every time we get into an El Nino period, the global warming debate stirs up again. The El Nino's and La Nina's are natural oceanic phenomenons that were discovered in the 20's that cause strange weather patterns. Then, it was discovered that the event went all the way back 200 years before that. Despite what the media has been projecting, the events haven't increased in intensity or frequency as of yet. We are currently one now. It started last year and it's carrying on into this year. This may explain the odd weather that some are having.

I also think that preaching to American's really won't do anything. We still have India and China who are heading down the same road that we are. Once we get those 2 countries on board, we can get a lot of progress done.

[cireecnop1]

agreed, America alone won't do anything. but we need to realise that we are the #1 polluter, I think Japan is #2 but thats only because they are so heavily populated that with such a small land mass of course that (small) nation will be recognized as a large polluter. but if we wait for others to act who knows how long it will take thats the whole point. we need to do something about it NOW, not just when everyone agrees that its a problem, by that time it will be too late.

[audtatious]

I also think that preaching to American's really won't do anything. We still have India and China who are heading down the same road that we are. Once we get those 2 countries on board, we can get a lot of progress done.

Gore is an absolute imbicile. Imagine if he had been elected prez?

China is one country that is really screwing things up. "If you believe the hype", they have horrible work conditions and no real policy against pollution. For the 2008 Olympics, they are forcing all factories in a 100-200 mile range of Beijing to try and keep the city relatively clear of pollution. They are also looking at banning car use during that timeframe as well.

"According to a World Bank report on environmental conditions in 21st-century China, a resident of Beijing is subjected to about seven times more particulates than a resident of Los Angeles and about eight times as much sulfur dioxide."

Those who are pissed because the US didn't sign the Koyoto agreement simply don't care that it would have handicapped the US (who would have tried to adjust) and others (who won't follow it anyway). If China, India and others are exempt, what real good is it going to do? We, as in the US, are constantly working on solving pollution issues as it is.

[cireecnop1]

yea we're working real hard , We (the U.S.) dont want to have stricter fuel economy standards since they/we are worried that it will sink our already sinking American car companies.except thats backwards,that's why the less polluting,more efficient foreign cars are crippling our american auto industry. Last month didn't Toyota become the number one car in America? passing up GM and Ford and Chrysler? Diamler-Chrysler is now #2 and im sure thats only on a technicality of that fact that Mercedes is apart of their company. a good example of this is that almost everyone here bought their Versa for the fact of better gas mileage. I dont think GM or Ford even have a car that can compete with the V.

[Ever Victorious]

Pure economy wise, the Aveo can compete with the Versa... but they are still night and day in design. The Aveo is REALLY designed as an econobox, and the Versa is far more upscale. The ION can almost compete, and the 4-door coupe version has pretty good space, great accessibility, and a near 50-50 weight split.

The most fuel efficient SUV is actually American... the Escape/Mariner Hybrid beats out the Highlander Hybrid by a little bit, but it is also a smaller vehicle... not in the same size class.

The least expensive hybrid is also American, in the Saturn Vue Green Line. It's not a whole lot more efficient than small 4-cylinder SUV's, and doesn't have an AWD option.... OR A SPARE TIRE!

But as a general rule, imports are more efficient and less expensive than comparably equipped American cars. Case in point: the new Caliber vs. the Versa. Caliber starts at about $14k, V at $12.5k. Fully loaded, they are $22k and $19k respectively. While a loaded Caliber has some nice features like an AWD CVT, it's also attached to their least efficient engine... and a base Caliber doesn't even have all of the features a base V does.

[audtatious]

yea we're working real hard , We (the U.S.) dont want to have stricter fuel economy standards since they/we are worried that it will sink our already sinking American car companies.except thats backwards,that's why the less polluting,more efficient foreign cars are crippling our american auto industry. Last month didn't Toyota become the number one car in America? passing up GM and Ford and Chrysler? Diamler-Chrysler is now #2 and im sure thats only on a technicality of that fact that Mercedes is apart of their company. a good example of this is that almost everyone here bought their Versa for the fact of better gas mileage. I dont think GM or Ford even have a car that can compete with the V.

I was talking about pollution in general, not just transportation. Were you aware that 30% of the Nations ozone (as related to smog) is simply drifting over here from other countries? The EPA is constantly tightning the "noose" on products. We are far better than we once were and are improving all the time. Of course, those who want the US to turn green in a couple of years time simply want you to think everything wrong with the world environment is at OUR hands.

[proxim2020]

Last month didn't Toyota become the number one car in America? passing up GM and Ford and Chrysler? Diamler-Chrysler is now #2 and im sure thats only on a technicality of that fact that Mercedes is apart of their company.

They still haven't moved up in rank yet, at least that's what Blomberg reports. They are still in #3, but it's expected that they will move to #1 before the year ends. They trail Ford by so little, that you can pretty much give them the #2 spot already. They will easily pass GM this year. I guess all those Red Tag and Employee discount sales just couldn't keep them at the top.

[cireecnop1]

I guess maybe it was on a month-to-month basis that Toyota passed Ford, but you're right they aren;t far behind and will be catching up very soon.

[marleyfan]

I was talking about pollution in general, not just transportation. Were you aware that 30% of the Nations ozone (as related to smog) is simply drifting over here from other countries? The EPA is constantly tightning the "noose" on products. We are far better than we once were and are improving all the time. Of course, those who want the US to turn green in a couple of years time simply want you to think everything wrong with the world environment is at OUR hands.

It is important to remember that, like it or not, the US is seen as the world leader. It would have been beneficial had the US recognized that fact and made a commitment which wasn't strictly based on its own economy. While many like to lay the blame for the world's troubles squarely on the shoulders of the US, many would simply like to see them set a good and responsible example as a world leader.

[audtatious]

What you really mean is "The world would like the US to foot the bill and pay the price to go through the major changes (financially and otherwise) involved with going totally Green"

Nothing will ever get done globally until fair policy and concensus can be reached. In order for that to happen, the UN will need to step out of the picture since they seem to want blame put squarely on our shoulders at every step. The Greenies in the US need to take an appropriate direction instead of pointing all blame at the auto industry and CO2 which is NOT the major issue with Global Warming (per their own "God Father" of the Global Warming debate).

For the most part, us "stepping up to the plate" means we would be combatting OUR problems along with those who are not in check. As I stated before, 30% of our pollution is from other countries. Other countries (western europe in general) gets a small percentage of our NE factories pollution. Sandstorms in the Sahara and Alaskan spruce fires can increase smog levels in Florida before going global. Volcanic activity globally effects the atmosphere. Methane gas releases from the oceans is another contributor to Greenhouse gasses.

While I have no problem with an appropriate direction for helping the environment, I have yet seen any real legislation being proposed that would help from a global standpoint. Until that happens we will continually be penalized for being a prosperous nation.

[cireecnop1]

I know that transportation is not the only cause for CO2 emissions, but it is a big one, along with the industrial parts of our nation. the other CO2 causes you listed are all natural occurances, since they are natural the planet should "naturally" be able to cope with the changes the forest fires(unless they were started by humans) cause along with the volcanic gases. Its fine that Mother nature causes its own emissions but we don't need to be adding to that amount

[audtatious]

Again, you are concentrating on CO2 only. CO2 is not the major problem today. Making strides to keep it from being a major problem is a proper direction but focusing on it as THE problem gets us nowhere.

[AZhitman]

I won't even get started on "Algore", because he's a "sky is falling" nincompoop who failed science class.

I think people miss the point. Transportation is a convenient scapegoat. But it's one of the LEAST of our concerns.

But, for fun, let's look at transportation-generated pollution:

As we've already seen (page 1), cars are a small, very small portion of the problem. Very small.

When you look at particulate matter, big trucks are certainly a contributor, but moreso are the monster earth-moving machines that generate thousands of times more particulate matter (mining, deforestation, urban sprawl, digging, drilling, etc). We call it dust.

Even that contribution pales in comparison to that generated by industry / factories / power generating facilities...

Commercial airlines are a significantly larger polluter than cars, generating 10x the pollution per passenger than if each person had driven a 2003 model-year vehicle instead of taking that flight. Where's the uproar there? WHERE?

Don't be led around by the nose. Do your own research. And don't get your news from a guy who stands to benefit in a political manner from mass hysteria.

In my next installment, I'll explain to you VERY CLEARLY how we could ALL REDUCE pollution AND waste by driving a 1972 model-year car for another 10 years, rather than buying a modern, so-called "green" car.