RB26 chewing up power steering belts

[mattblancarte]

Hey everyone. I mentioned this in a thread a while ago, but can't find it.

I just got done with two track days this weekend, and destroyed two power steering belts. The first one threw off one of the ribs, and the second one folded over on itself. Both were tensioned properly, so I'm thinking this has something to do with the alignment of the balancer and the pulley.

Can I fix this without getting a new balancer, or is that the only solution. Just makes me nervous because the next track I'll be running at has some very dangerous corners, and I don't want to lose power steering at at the wrong time.

[Joe]

very dangerous corners? in arizona?

gotta be firebird main? haha who do you drive with matt? (nasa, PAS, etc)

its very strange youre tossing belts. I would check the pulley alignment with the crank and make 100% sure its not bent. do you happen to have the one it tossed? im interested to see it.

[mattblancarte]

I'm actually moving to Redmond, WA in a month. I'll be running at Pacific Raceways, Bremerton, and Portland International Raceway.

There are several high-speed corners at pacific raceways that have no run off area, just a flight into the woods lol.

I run with NASA out here in AZ. Just got my TT license yesterday! It was quite the eye-opener to run in big bore TT... so much more fun than HPDE. I ran a 1:12:825 on street tires. Some dude in a crazy Viper race car ran a 1:03.

I don't have a pic, but if you can imagine the four ribs on the PS belt, and one of them being gone, that is what it looks like. I think it may be misaligned with the crank pully, but I dunno... I lost PS when I was on the NASCAR turn 3 at PIR on Saturday... was a bit sketchy.

The second one I put on just folded over on itself. If you can imagine the fourth rib folded, that's what it looked like until I fixed it.

[ddjernes]

did you check your ribs on the pulleys all the way around? If you have a piece of the pulley that is broken or messed up its likely to tear up belts under stress. if thats not it check the alignment.

[mattblancarte]

Indeed, I did. It's a Greddy pulley and it's relatively new. I took part of my hot IC pipe off, took the belt off, and will be checking the alignment with a straight edge in the morning.

[Coolwhip]

damn man, you haven't solved this issue yet?

We need to see what balancer you are using and what power steering pump as well.

Reason being is that the R32 RB26 offsets the powersteering pump belt by a few mm out than the RB25 and also uses a 4 rib belt. The R33/34 also misaligns the powersteering belt as well differing from the R32 RB26 setup.

Since you have a swapped motor you need to figure out what components were used.

One of the reasons why the Ross Tuffbond MetalJackets (RB26 app) had underdrive the powersteering pulley was to prevent the tossing of belts. I spoke to Ross about this as the stock and previous model balancers were tossing p/s belts on track cars on various power levels (majority being higher powered/revving motors).

If you are eating a rib on the belt it's more than likely misaligned as in a mix and match of components between pump and balancer.

[SamuraiSam]

I'm actually moving to Redmond, WA in a month. I'll be running at Pacific Raceways, Bremerton, and Portland International Raceway.

There are several high-speed corners at pacific raceways that have no run off area, just a flight into the woods lol.

I run with NASA out here in AZ. Just got my TT license yesterday! It was quite the eye-opener to run in big bore TT... so much more fun than HPDE. I ran a 1:12:825 on street tires. Some dude in a crazy Viper race car ran a 1:03.

I don't have a pic, but if you can imagine the four ribs on the PS belt, and one of them being gone, that is what it looks like. I think it may be misaligned with the crank pully, but I dunno... I lost PS when I was on the NASCAR turn 3 at PIR on Saturday... was a bit sketchy.

The second one I put on just folded over on itself. If you can imagine the fourth rib folded, that's what it looked like until I fixed it.

Dude. Pacific Raceways is a beast. I love it. Are you using all stock bracketry and pullies? Sometimes the RB25's and RB26's get swapped and don't work properly. Sometimes the wrong bracket and right pump. Sometimes the right bracket and wrong pump. Previous poster mentioned a big issue, which is the difference between the 'Early' and 'Late' crankshaft styles which move the main damper a little bit. I like to use the ATI damper, and haven't had any problems with belt misalignment yet. The nice part about the ATI is the front powersteering drive is removable/space-able- a swapper's golden ticket.

If you don't get the issue fixed before moving, please swing by our shop: http://www.upgarageusa.com. We won't charge you anything to take a quick look.

[WhatsADSM]

Interesting you post it.

I have also ripped apart one PS belt and just recently threw one on my 26 as well.

ATI damper on a R33 setup.

Samurai and/or Coolwhip.. Is there any measurements which can be taken to see if they are misaligned. When I stare at it I can't see an issue, but then again we are talking about a few mm.

[mattblancarte]

damn man, you haven't solved this issue yet?

We need to see what balancer you are using and what power steering pump as well.

Reason being is that the R32 RB26 offsets the powersteering pump belt by a few mm out than the RB25 and also uses a 4 rib belt. The R33/34 also misaligns the powersteering belt as well differing from the R32 RB26 setup.

Since you have a swapped motor you need to figure out what components were used.

One of the reasons why the Ross Tuffbond MetalJackets (RB26 app) had underdrive the powersteering pulley was to prevent the tossing of belts. I spoke to Ross about this as the stock and previous model balancers were tossing p/s belts on track cars on various power levels (majority being higher powered/revving motors).

If you are eating a rib on the belt it's more than likely misaligned as in a mix and match of components between pump and balancer.

Hmmmm... I'll need to call the shop that did the motor swap (G-Dimension) to confirm, but this is beginning to make sense. The motor is a frankenstein of r32, r33, and r34 parts. Crank (and balancer, I assume) is r33, which makes me think that the balancer is, as well. The pump, I have no clue. I'll look into this more in depth, and take some pics for you guys.

I'm a total n00b when it comes to wrenching, as in I know track maintenance and basic basic stuff.

Luckily, my businesses partner's dad is in town and he is a very experienced fab/mechanic (even though he is an airline pilot for Alaska Airlines). He's going to help me a align it best we can, but after hearing the above wisdom... I have a feeling that it may not be the complete issue.

Dude. Pacific Raceways is a beast. I love it. Are you using all stock bracketry and pullies? Sometimes the RB25's and RB26's get swapped and don't work properly. Sometimes the wrong bracket and right pump. Sometimes the right bracket and wrong pump. Previous poster mentioned a big issue, which is the difference between the 'Early' and 'Late' crankshaft styles which move the main damper a little bit. I like to use the ATI damper, and haven't had any problems with belt misalignment yet. The nice part about the ATI is the front powersteering drive is removable/space-able- a swapper's golden ticket.

If you don't get the issue fixed before moving, please swing by our shop: http://www.upgarageusa.com. We won't charge you anything to take a quick look.

It seriously is! I don't want to fly around turn 1 at 150mph and lose PS! That could spell doom for me and the car at that speed.

Some guy in TT group 2 smacked into the oval at PIR this past weekend, and probably would have died had he not been wearing his HANS device.

Greddy pulley, stock damper I believe. Pics may confirm this one way or the other.

I'll swing by your guy's shop just because you have that ridiculous yellow S chassis with the 26. So beautiful!

[mattblancarte]

Okay, have an update.

Just took the car into DynoComp, and we revved the motor up and witnessed an interesting event. When the motor is revved to 5k or so and you let off the throttle, the PS belt starts oscillating and you can see waves. That would definitely be why I'm throwing the belts.

Your thoughts, please.

[SamuraiSam]

Either the belt is tensioned wrong- too much, too little- the pullies are misaligned as said before - or one or both of the pulleys is deflecting. The pulley isn't balanced, the crank pulley isn't harmonically dampened (like the stock damper, or an ATI, etc), there's an egg shape to a cruddy aluminum pulley, etc...

There are differences I think, between the early R32, and at least the R33 or R34 dampers. The cranks are different, but don't know if the 'depth' of the damper needed to be changed due to the wider oil pump drive. Most of the recent RB26 bottom end stuff I've done was with R34 OE cranks so I don't know... There are major differences with the different models power steering pumps (R32 way different with the HICAS impeller and lines built into the P/S pump, with a different bracket to accomodate) and the way they will line up with the ideal belt depth.

The yellow 26 S13 was beautiful. We have some other fun projects right now though. A long term build, RB25 drift car (with all RB26 turbos and OE manifolds, all the twin turbo setup) just left under its own power, and we have an interesting build sitting on the dyno right now waiting for its PowerFC D-jetro to be tuned...

...There's a reason the shop is called Fairlady Motors...

[Coolwhip]

the oil pump drive does not effect the positioning of the dampner, nor will the difference in year cranks.

The first pulley to the water pump, alternator is positioned the same on all RB motors throughout all the years.

As SamuraiSam mentioned, the change in the HICAS powersteering system from the R32 to R33 changed that pulley system.

http://blog.rawbrokerage.com/2....aspx

Matt, identify your balancer. And does your p/s pump have a "Y" looking return port?

[gawdzilla]

^ 2nd that. i test fit a 25 pump to a 26 crank pulley and the alignment is off. you can visibly see it does not line up. try to find out which pulley you have, then try to match the pump. iirc you can run 25 pulley with ka24de pump. i did that and had no alignment issues but the pump i got was dead :-\

[mattblancarte]

The balancer currently on my motor is the rb26 balancer. Just checked, and it looks just like the one in your blog post. The pulleys are Greddy.

I can't find a "Y" configuration on the return post for the PS pump. I've looked at a few pics of HICAS pumps and mine is not one, at least from the look of it.

[Coolwhip]

I think we can narrow it down to you having:

R32 RB26 BalancerR33 RB25 Powersteering pump.

Since the RB26 powersteering pump has a "Y" type return port from both pressure cavities on the pump. And since the RB25 only has one, then there is no merging Y port.

(insert RB25 p/s pump picture here)

Now here is were my theory comes in...

Your balancer has a 4 ribbed p/s pulley, correct. Equavilating to a 26 balancer.

The RB25 powersteering pump you have installed originally had a 3 ribbed pulley.

Since there was a RB26 Greddy pulley kit installed replacing your factory RB25 powersteering pulley, your pump should now have 4 ribs.

However, since the pump itself is offset since it does not align the same spot as the orignal RB26 pump did, 4 or 3 rib pulley regardless will be "inword" towards the rear of the motor due to it's mounting properties.

Solutions:

Get a RB25 balancerorGet a RB26 R32 powersteering pump and modify it for RWDorMake a custom/modify the bracket to offset the powersteering pump further towards the front of the car to align with the balancer.

Tell me if that sounds right as I'm going off what you've posted and don't have pictures to actually verify the components used during your swap.

[mattblancarte]

I think we can narrow it down to you having:

Custom/modify the bracket to offset the powersteering pump further towards the front of the car to align with the balancer.

Tell me if that sounds right as I'm going off what you've posted and don't have pictures to actually verify the components used during your swap.

This is the current path I'm going to go for. My business partner's dad was in town last weekend, and we pulled the PS pump off to get an idea of what we could do. We're going to shave off a bit from the bracket, and install washers or something to space it for proper alignment.



I'll get a pic up of the PS pump so you can confirm.

[darksurfer81]

Sorry to ressurrect this topic, but I want to get power steering on my RB26 swap in my S13. Just from searching around I gather that I need P/S pump from a RB26 a balancer and a bracket. So basically what Im asking is what all do I need since my info is fragmented!

[gawdzilla]

basically your balancer needs to match your ps pump. theres hacks you can do to get rid of the hicas port if your ps pump has that and your car does not.

you can run rb25 balancer with rb25 ps pump or 26 balancer with 26 pump

[Bluefire]

Hmmm I wonder why I didn't see this thread earlier... Anyways, I did the Rb26 install in your car. The crank pulley is the stock R32 crank pulley. As for the power steering pump assembly, its a frankenstein. I believe I used an RB25 power steering bracket, a KA powersteering pump, and RB26 R32 Greddy pulley. I thought the alignment was pretty good , considering all the dyno runs we made on it. Maybe your gonna have to shim it a bit....

[NCPP]

I had exactly the same problem with my RB26.

What I did, was replace the Powser Steering pump with a pump from a CA18 - The pulley on the power steering pump is undo-able (Not pressed on), so take the pulled off, and flip it over. Do it back up, and you're away. From memory, I used a Rb25 Power Steering mount to the block.

I tried HEAPS of different combinations (CA18, RD28, RB20, RB25 even a Z18!!) and the CA18 one was PERFECT

Hope that helps some of you out a bit

[mattblancarte]

Hmmm I wonder why I didn't see this thread earlier... Anyways, I did the Rb26 install in your car. The crank pulley is the stock R32 crank pulley. As for the power steering pump assembly, its a frankenstein. I believe I used an RB25 power steering bracket, a KA powersteering pump, and RB26 R32 Greddy pulley. I thought the alignment was pretty good , considering all the dyno runs we made on it. Maybe your gonna have to shim it a bit....

Ahhhhhhh... I see.

Any other knick knacks or things I should know about the motor?

[Coolwhip]

damn matt, just get us a picture and we'll be able to confirm what you are working with.

But there are always ways around these type of issues. Not the bad.

[Bluefire]

Ahhhhhhh... I see.

Any other knick knacks or things I should know about the motor?

mmm not much else funky stuff I had to do... I'm sure you already know it has a metal headgasket and HKS pistons...

Oh I think I have a diagram for the fuse block under the dash. I had to do a lot of extra wiring to get the lights, accessories, cluster, etc, working. I'll check tomorrow

[mattblancarte]

damn matt, just get us a picture and we'll be able to confirm what you are working with.

But there are always ways around these type of issues. Not the bad.

Lol sorry man. I got lazy with the issue because I re-did the tension and I haven't had much trouble with the belt since.

After replacing it, I've driven about 500 miles and done about 85 minutes track time. No real damage to the belt after all that.

mmm not much else funky stuff I had to do... I'm sure you already know it has a metal headgasket and HKS pistons...

Oh I think I have a diagram for the fuse block under the dash. I had to do a lot of extra wiring to get the lights, accessories, cluster, etc, working. I'll check tomorrow

Didn't know about the headgasket (which is awesome ), but knew about the pistons.

A fuse diagram would be GREAT! I've blown a few here and there, so to know exactly what everything is will be such a useful tool. Please shoot me an email if you find it!