RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

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DETurbine
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RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby DETurbine » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:04 pm

Hell finally froze over. After years of putting it together I finally got it cranked over with the new Mega Squirt setup. I know there were a lot of people waiting to see if we could get it to work with the stock CAS, stock Ignitors, stock sensors, stock IAC, VVT, etc....basically plug and play except the GM intake air temp and no MAF. First time MS1 has ever been a plug and play setup for our motors. In the past people have done the Ford EDIS-6 or had a custom CAS wheel made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DroFlzaviSw

Once my friend gets it properly tuned and verify that everything works properly. He is thinking about getting some professional PC Boards made if anybody is interested in board kit or ready to run ECU. Another option rather then the more expensive stand alones or the PFC.


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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup! (DETurbine)

Postby HxC_Nismo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:38 pm

DETurbine wrote:Hell finally froze over. After years of putting it together I finally got it cranked over with the new Mega Squirt setup. I know there were a lot of people waiting to see if we could get it to work with the stock CAS, stock Ignitors, stock sensors, stock IAC, VVT, etc....basically plug and play except the GM intake air temp and no MAF. First time MS1 has ever been a plug and play setup for our motors. In the past people have done the Ford EDIS-6 or had a custom CAS wheel made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DroFlzaviSw

Once my friend gets it properly tuned and verify that everything works properly. He is thinking about getting some professional PC Boards made if anybody is interested in board kit or ready to run ECU. Another option rather then the more expensive stand alones or the PFC.
congrats on getting the megasquirt to work on the RB, cause thats not quite that easy to do. whats up with vid at 1:04 lmao, reminds me of a scene in the movie fight club lmao, you can get in trouble with youtube if they catch it.
Modified by HxC_Nismo at 9:45 PM 4/3/2010

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DETurbine
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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup! (HxC_Nismo)

Postby DETurbine » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:48 pm

HxC_Nismo wrote:

congrats on getting the megasquirt to work on the RB, cause thats not quite that easy to do. whats up with vid at 1:04 lmao, reminds me of a scene in the movie fight club lmao, you can get in trouble with youtube if they catch it.

Modified by HxC_Nismo at 9:45 PM 4/3/2010
yeah that's kinda what I was going for. Call it stupid, but after a few drinks on a weekend after finally starting my car, it seemed like a great idea.

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup! (DETurbine)

Postby meet07 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:54 pm

tell us more about it??!?!?!!??

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup! (meet07)

Postby DETurbine » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:57 pm

meet07 wrote:tell us more about it??!?!?!!??
How much are you wanting to know?

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Postby l0nestar » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:34 pm

I like!

(and I got a laugh at 1:04)

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DETurbine
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Postby DETurbine » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:07 am

Like I had stated in my first post. My friend is thinking about getting some professional PC boards made or a ready to use MS ecu if any of you are interested in doing this. I know us RB guys have limited options (either piggy back like the pfc, or full stand alone) in either you are spending about $850+ on the pfc or $1400+ for a full stand alone. This is a full stand alone and will be a very cheap option for us now. Once we get my car up and running and tuned to make sure everything is functioning properly he will be looking into getting them professionally made. This will be a plug and play unit. Only thing that will have to be switched out is a GM intake air temp.

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Postby WhatsADSM » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:57 am

Pretty cool... but aren't the MS outputs pretty limited?

Are you running sequential FI? Wastespark or direct? What FW base is this on?

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Postby l0nestar » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:35 am

Looks good man. Only question. What is your price-point you are trying to hit? Somewhere between NisTune and PFC?

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Re: (l0nestar)

Postby beav » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:21 am

I am Deturbines friend, His setup is using the latest MS1 Extra firmware, 29y I think. Its a true six channel coil on plug decoded by the add on board which directly drives the coils. It emulates a distributor to the megasquirt so only one input and one output is used. If you tried to do true six channel COP natively with the megasquirt and a different crank wheel or different cam wheel then it would use six of the megasquirts outputs and you would be limited. With deturbines, we have plenty of outputs left for VCT, idle air control, three stage shift light and a couple more I wired up but currently dont have any specific use for, fan control is a possibility but I was gonna try the stock fan switch for now. The injectors are batch fire, the new MS3 supports sequential injection and individual cylinder trim but the benefits are usually regarded as negligable if you even bother to attempt to tune for it. The MS3 has tons of outputs and features but is still pretty new and already sold out at the moment. MS2 or MS3 or actually just about any ecu that supports a distributor could be used with this decoder board. MS2 or MS3 would require a slightly taller case but should be do-able.

If somebody wanted a fully assembled MS1 setup just like this that is ready to wire in and run I am pretty sure it could be done for $500 including the GM IAT and a small pigtail harness to wire into the ecus harness. I wouldnt really be makin any real profit, just sharing some of the work that went into making DETurbines work. MS2 or mS3 would be a bit more due the upgraded cpus and larger cases. If I had a junk ecu to salvage the clip from a true plug and play jumper harness would be possible. I could possibly rewire harnesses too. Just the add on boards price alone would come down to how cheap I can get them made, small quantities are not too cheap which is why I figured I might as well get a few made and see if anybody wanted one instead of getting one nice one made just for DETurbine.

Modified by beav at 12:26 PM 4/5/2010
Modified by beav at 12:28 PM 4/5/2010

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Re: (beav)

Postby WhatsADSM » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:01 am

beav wrote:I am Deturbines friend, His setup is using the latest MS1 Extra firmware, 29y I think. Its a true six channel coil on plug decoded by the add on board which directly drives the coils. It emulates a distributor to the megasquirt so only one input and one output is used. If you tried to do true six channel COP natively with the megasquirt and a different crank wheel or different cam wheel then it would use six of the megasquirts outputs and you would be limited. With deturbines, we have plenty of outputs left for VCT, idle air control, three stage shift light and a couple more I wired up but currently dont have any specific use for, fan control is a possibility but I was gonna try the stock fan switch for now. The injectors are batch fire, the new MS3 supports sequential injection and individual cylinder trim but the benefits are usually regarded as negligable if you even bother to attempt to tune for it. The MS3 has tons of outputs and features but is still pretty new and already sold out at the moment. MS2 or MS3 or actually just about any ecu that supports a distributor could be used with this decoder board. MS2 or MS3 would require a slightly taller case but should be do-able.

If somebody wanted a fully assembled MS1 setup just like this that is ready to wire in and run I am pretty sure it could be done for $500 including the GM IAT and a small pigtail harness to wire into the ecus harness. I wouldnt really be makin any real profit, just sharing some of the work that went into making DETurbines work. MS2 or mS3 would be a bit more due the upgraded cpus and larger cases. If I had a junk ecu to salvage the clip from a true plug and play jumper harness would be possible. I could possibly rewire harnesses too. Just the add on boards price alone would come down to how cheap I can get them made, small quantities are not too cheap which is why I figured I might as well get a few made and see if anybody wanted one instead of getting one nice one made just for DETurbine.

Modified by beav at 12:26 PM 4/5/2010

Modified by beav at 12:28 PM 4/5/2010
I agree in terms of WOT that batch versus sequential won't really make any difference. Although in terms of drivability and fuel economy sequential FI should def. be a little better. So are running right now with just the Megasquirt or are you also running the stock ECU for stuff like the idle?

Also I take it since they are banked that they are high Z injector drivers?

Overall it is a pretty cool setup and nice to see other setups out there. I think in terms of large scale take up of it the wiring will be the issue for sure. Most people don't want to wire every input/output and would rather have a plug and play solution. Especially considering Nistune+repinned ECU is around the $500 range as well. If you can find the female ECU plug though you would be in business

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Re: (beav)

Postby WhatsADSM » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:13 am

beav wrote:I am Deturbines friend, His setup is using the latest MS1 Extra firmware, 29y I think. Its a true six channel coil on plug decoded by the add on board which directly drives the coils. It emulates a distributor to the megasquirt so only one input and one output is used. If you tried to do true six channel COP natively with the megasquirt and a different crank wheel or different cam wheel then it would use six of the megasquirts outputs and you would be limited. With deturbines, we have plenty of outputs left for VCT, idle air control, three stage shift light and a couple more I wired up but currently dont have any specific use for, fan control is a possibility but I was gonna try the stock fan switch for now. The injectors are batch fire, the new MS3 supports sequential injection and individual cylinder trim but the benefits are usually regarded as negligable if you even bother to attempt to tune for it. The MS3 has tons of outputs and features but is still pretty new and already sold out at the moment. MS2 or MS3 or actually just about any ecu that supports a distributor could be used with this decoder board. MS2 or MS3 would require a slightly taller case but should be do-able.

If somebody wanted a fully assembled MS1 setup just like this that is ready to wire in and run I am pretty sure it could be done for $500 including the GM IAT and a small pigtail harness to wire into the ecus harness. I wouldnt really be makin any real profit, just sharing some of the work that went into making DETurbines work. MS2 or mS3 would be a bit more due the upgraded cpus and larger cases. If I had a junk ecu to salvage the clip from a true plug and play jumper harness would be possible. I could possibly rewire harnesses too. Just the add on boards price alone would come down to how cheap I can get them made, small quantities are not too cheap which is why I figured I might as well get a few made and see if anybody wanted one instead of getting one nice one made just for DETurbine.

Modified by beav at 12:26 PM 4/5/2010

Modified by beav at 12:28 PM 4/5/2010
So wait... I was just thinking, something isn't quite right about the sequencer/distributor thing.

Since you effectively TDMing all of the coil outputs on a single MS output you will definitely run into a bottleneck on that output.

Consider this:Say you want to spin this up to 8000 (normal for an RB). 8000 RPM is 133.33 rev/s. Which has a period of 7.5ms

Now because you are attempting to run a 6 cylinder that means that there are 3 separate spark events per 1 mechanical revolution. And assuming you aren't trimming the dwell between each cylinder differently (do any standalones support that?) that means that you only have a maximum of: 7.5ms/3 = 2.5ms of dwell per cylinder.

And 2.5ms is a MAXIMUM, essentially as you approach this number the ignition would just start falling apart since the edges would go away completely at 2.5ms. So... lets just say to be safe you limit it to 2.0ms.

You really couldn't have a system that runs more than about 2ms of dwell?

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Re: (WhatsADSM)

Postby beav » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:21 am

They are high impedance injectors but the MS supports low impedance as well. The way I have been told by people smarter than me is that the majority of the reason for sequential is for emissions, outside of idle or very low duty cycle the injectors are pretty much never firing into an open valve anyways. This is why the megasquirt setup is just now bothering with it, there hasnt been a lot of demand. If you are going all out an have the capability you can tune indiviual cylinder trims too but that is well outside the needs of most people. Megasquirt is pretty popular around here and there definately is no driveability issues if tuned right.

I agree its not everybody and I definately dont want to make it seem that way. I know there are a few others I have talked that already have or are planning on running megasquirt and this board would make it a hell of a lot easier since you dont have fab up a crank wheel or change any parts. If you have never tuned a car before and are intimated by auto wiring then start somewhere else. Any full standalone is a challenge and a big step and something more DIY like megasquirt is even more so.

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Re: (WhatsADSM)

Postby beav » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:25 am

WhatsADSM wrote:
So wait... I was just thinking, something isn't quite right about the sequencer/distributor thing.

Since you effectively TDMing all of the coil outputs on a single MS output you will definitely run into a bottleneck on that output.

Consider this:Say you want to spin this up to 8000 (normal for an RB). 8000 RPM is 133.33 rev/s. Which has a period of 7.5ms

Now because you are attempting to run a 6 cylinder that means that there are 3 separate spark events per 1 mechanical revolution. And assuming you aren't trimming the dwell between each cylinder differently (do any standalones support that?) that means that you only have a maximum of: 7.5ms/3 = 2.5ms of dwell per cylinder.

And 2.5ms is a MAXIMUM, essentially as you approach this number the ignition would just start falling apart since the edges would go away completely at 2.5ms. So... lets just say to be safe you limit it to 2.0ms.

You really couldn't have a system that runs more than about 2ms of dwell?
Correct, but everyone I have talked and the Motec website said these coilpacks only need 1.5ms of dwell so its still a non issue. Otherwise I would have added dwell control onto this boards microcontroller as well. Last I knew most of the megasquirts native COP or wasted spark setups dont actually support overlapping dwell either which is dissapointing, but distributor setups have worked fine that way for a hundred years.

Edit: and acutally I just remembered, the stock ecu is setup with the output just like mine because that is what I modeled mine after. It uses logic counters and logic gates to lock out all but one cylider at a time and the cpu only drives one coil at a time that is detemined by the discrete logic chips as it cannot come close to decoding that wheel by itself either. So even if it needed I am pretty sure the stock ECU cannot overlap dwell either.
Modified by beav at 1:40 PM 4/5/2010

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup! (DETurbine)

Postby kevwa » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:58 pm

congrats on all this work! Nice to finally see the stock CAS working with MS. Too bad for me you didnt have this last year... Anyway have you talked to DIY AutoTune in regards to getting this extra board made? They are always making write ups on how to install MS on specific vehicles - im sure they would be able to help get this board made for minimum cost. At the very least you definitely should be in contact with them so they can get some of your info up on their site, as long as that would be alright with you.

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Re: (beav)

Postby WhatsADSM » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:07 pm

beav wrote:
Correct, but everyone I have talked and the Motec website said these coilpacks only need 1.5ms of dwell so its still a non issue. Otherwise I would have added dwell control onto this boards microcontroller as well. Last I knew most of the megasquirts native COP or wasted spark setups dont actually support overlapping dwell either which is dissapointing, but distributor setups have worked fine that way for a hundred years.

Edit: and acutally I just remembered, the stock ecu is setup with the output just like mine because that is what I modeled mine after. It uses logic counters and logic gates to lock out all but one cylider at a time and the cpu only drives one coil at a time that is detemined by the discrete logic chips as it cannot come close to decoding that wheel by itself either. So even if it needed I am pretty sure the stock ECU cannot overlap dwell either.

Modified by beav at 1:40 PM 4/5/2010
Ahh I never knew that about the stock ECU, but it makes a lot of sense. Those old uCs were pretty down on power so it definately makes sense. The only reason I asked is because <2.0 ms can limit the choice of coils. I was thinking of the LSx coils in particular actually.

In any case I wasn't trying to pick it apart at all. MS is a great setup (especially for the cash) and like I said it is always great to see more options out there. A patch harness would make this killer... Just gotta find some place to source those connectors!

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Postby TheRealNap0le0n » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:48 pm

i like the idea of a cheap alternative for a stand alone but my last experience with a MS was a MSII running MS extra code and I know for a fact that the megasquirt hates my computer... it was always locking up during tuning which is to say the least a patience tester

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Re: (TheRealNap0le0n)

Postby DETurbine » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:09 pm

TheRealNap0le0n wrote:i like the idea of a cheap alternative for a stand alone but my last experience with a MS was a MSII running MS extra code and I know for a fact that the megasquirt hates my computer... it was always locking up during tuning which is to say the least a patience tester
Yeah must have been the computer. My friend has been playing with it while bench testing it and I know a guy that has used MS on a number of cars without any problems with the software itself when tuning.

I know there are some skeptical people when it comes to this stand alone, because for one they have never used it and two it's not made by a well known company, but I have seen nothing but success a number of times with the MS. Just need to get a person that knows how to set up a stand alone and tune it corretly.

Beav has put this all together and so far it seems to be working flawlessly. Like he had stated before there are more then enough output options with this that we are having a hard filling them with mine.

Modified by DETurbine at 11:21 PM 4/5/2010
Modified by DETurbine at 11:26 PM 4/5/2010

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Re: (DETurbine)

Postby TheRealNap0le0n » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:20 am

i actually really liked the flexibility and power of the MSII extra code.

its got code for 2 step, flat shift, and all kinds of programmable outputs. Self learn with o2 sensors etc.

i read alot that the MS is not friendly using a serial to usb converter and my computer doesnt have a serial port so i had no choice....

literally mid tuning the program would lock my laptop up to the point that i had to pull power from it to restart it...

I run a HP windows XP laptop. either way ill follow the crap out of this as my RB is sitting in my garage finally after 6 months of dreaming and looking

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby DETurbine » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:13 am

UPDATE: Car is up running and driving perfectly. Out breaking the engine this week. Have almost 40 miles on it. Starts right up and runs smooth. MS setup using the stock coil packs works PERFECT!

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby l0nestar » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:07 am

Sweet!

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby Iknowthefuture » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:43 pm

Can I have your tune and settings for MegaSquirt?

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Re: (WhatsADSM)

Postby jsmcortina » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:59 pm

beav wrote: Last I knew most of the megasquirts native COP or wasted spark setups dont actually support overlapping dwell either which is dissapointing, but distributor setups have worked fine that way for a hundred years.
All the dwell code I have written (MS1/Extra, MS2/Extra, MS3) supports overlap and always has.

MS3 is planned to support the Nissan CASes natively. Test code written today.

James

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby marshallpre1 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:57 am

Nice job sir!

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby Darius » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:11 am

DETurbine, I'm not sure I thought I would ever see the day that you got your project out on the road. Congratulations!! :dblthumb: Now come to Des Moines for a Steve Kan tuning session later on this month. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

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Re: RB25 start up + Mega Squirt setup!

Postby BoostFab » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:57 pm

LOL we all have the car-on-the-jack syndrom at some point.


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