Alright, before anyone goes off, and tells me to use the search button, I've used the search button on every board, and webpage I could get my hands on for the past 4 months. I've learned more than I really want to know at this point, but I still have some questions that could use answering...

Here's the rundown. This isn't a "What If" scenerio... this is a "Which One" situation. I've got approx $13k to work with on a street car, and my goal is for somewhere between 450-600hp out of the motor. The $13k includes the car (S13). This will not be my daily driver, but I love to drive, and need decent reliability out of it. I can't have it in the shop more than about once ever 3 months after it's "done" (Seeing as a project car is never really done).

1. Labor for me is going to be free, if not DIRT cheap. My roomate is a motor wizz, he went to School of Automotive Machinists here in Houston, tx, and works at a local performance shop. The owner of the shop is willing to let him use the space to build this car up, as long as I help promote the shop a little when it's done. He has yet to get his hands dirty with any of these motors, but has put rotaries in 510's, v8's in bugs, h22's in crxs, etc. And, he's VERY creative, and excellent at problem solving.

2. After the purchase of the vehicle, with the addition of suspension work, z32 brake upgrade, and any restoration needed to be done to the vehicle, I'm estimating I'll have about $8k-$9k to spend on performance. Remember, this is just parts, not labor. First thing on the list is Fuel Management. And the best advice I've ever heard about fuel management, is use whatever your tuner is comfortable with. He says I have to get Motec($2000) or Electromotive($1300). So that brings me down to about $7k to spend.

3. So, here's the hard part. Motor Selection! I'm going to post information I have gathered on all of these motors, the do's and don'ts, and why I chose them. This is in order of my preference according to what I've researched. The prices that I list along side these motors is for the ENTIRE front clip of the car, with shipping. If you think these prices are ridiculously low, and I'm not being realistic, don't hesitate to tell me, but nonetheless, I've found these clips from RELIABLE and TRUSTWORTHY sources for these prices (In the States!).

A. RB20DET. Nissan Skyline R32 GTS-T Front Clip. $1400 Shipped. So far, this has become my #1 Choice, for several reasons: PROS: #1 Price (Friggin Cheap). #2 Availablitiy (My source has a STACK of them at all points in time!) #3 Cast Iron Block (Roomate has me sold on that!) #4 Internals can hold over 450hp on approx 12lbs of boost (After Upgrades) #5 Only adds about 60lbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling. #6 It pops, I can have another motor in less than a week for dirt cheap! CONS: #1 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do internals, and that gets EXPENSIVE on the RB series Motors. #2 Maintenance. It's not like we have many (if any) compatible maintenance parts here in the states for this motor. #3 Not alot of info on the swap, so alot more trial and error = $$$$

B. RB25DET. Nissan Skyline R33 GTS-T Front Clip. $2400 Shipped. PROS: #1 Price Per Capability. #2 Availablitiy (My source has a STACK of them at all points in time!) #3 Cast Iron Block (Roomate has me sold on that!) #4 Internals can hold over 450hp on approx 10lbs of boost (After Upgrades) #5 Only adds about 60lbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling. CONS: #1 I've read in several places, that these motors are detonation happy (Compression is too high), and cannot take as much of a beating as the rb20det, internals are practically a necessity. #2 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do internals, and that gets EXPENSIVE on the RB series Motors. #3 Maintenance. It's not like we have many (if any) compatible maintenance parts here in the states for this motor. #4 Not alot of info on the swap, so alot more trial and error = $$$$ #5 Clearance issues in a couple different places. Not a biggie, just a pain!

C. KA24DET. Stock 91-93 USDM 240sx Motor. Free, or DIRT CHEAP $300. This is exactly what I would choose if this was going to be a daily driven car. PROS: #1 There's ALOT of PROS! #2 The money I save on doing a swap can go directly INTO the internals of the motor. #3 Cast Iron Block. #4 Sourcing parts for it is rediculously easy. #5 Regular Maintenance is a breeze. #6 Lots of information in English (Hehehe) on working with this motor. CONS: #1 Availability of Internals. There's pretty much anything out there I want, but I don't have alot of options. EX: I've only found 2 companies that make aftermarket cams. #2 I have to do a full motor buildup on this to get within my desired power range. #3 If I do the buildup, and the motor pops, it's going to cost me more than doing a rb26dett in the long run. #4 It would make sense for me to purchase a 91-93 running with very little issues than it would for me to buy an 89-93 with a blown motor. So probably $1500 more Realistically.

D. CA18DET. 88-90 S13 Silvia + 180sx. Front Clip $1500 Shipped. PROS: #1 High Reving motor! (I have an infatuation with Honda Motors, so I like this) #2 Can hold a sturdy amount of boost on stock internals (14lbs?). #3 Cast Iron Block. #4 Can't remember which car (s12 200sx?), but I know there is a USDM car that has a ca18de in it, so I can source parts for maintenance in most cases. #5 40 lbs lighter than KA. Wooptie friggin doo... #6 Decently easy swap, with good amount of potential. If I had a lower budget, I would definetly choose this motor. #7 I've heard over and over that this motor can take a beating, like the rb20det. CONS: #1 If I want to reach my desired hp output, I will need to do ALOT of internals, and parts are hard to source, and expensive, on the CA series Motors. #2 Honestly, doesn't seem like it's worth dumping $8k into unless I had to drive it every day. #3 Mostly, it's a Money to HP thing. There aren't alot of cons on this motor at all, but I don't think it fits into my specific formula.

E. SR20DET (Redtop). 91-93 S13 Silvia K Front Clip. $2100 Shipped. PROS: #1 TONS of information (everybody jumped on this bandwagon) #2 Maintenance. Considering we have so many cars that have parts that work for maintaining this motor... #3 Relatively Straight Forward Swap. #4 I've been told, but still don't quite believe it, that this motor can hold upwards of 22lbs of boost on stock internals. 15lbs sounds more realistic... #5 Lots of parts available for building this motor up. CONS: #1 Since there is a high demand for this motor, the price on it is about 300% what it's worth. In Japan, you can get the motor/tranny/ecu/wiring harness for about $450. #2 Aluminum Block... I've owned Hondas galore, tired of dealing with it. Would need to be sleeved, to reach my desired hp output, and that costs $$$$$ ($1200). #3 I'll have to do SOME internals (Sleeves, Pistons, Rods) to get in my hp range, and If I'm going to open up my motor... I'm going to go ahead and do the whole shabang at once, which shoots this way above my intended budget. #4 Again, it's a money to HP thing. I've heard it said before a thousand times, and I'll repeat it right now. For the tuner on a tight strict budget, this is the motor to have. Out of the box, it pumps out a good amount of power, easy to find, cheap to maintain, and the boost can be cranked after you've done the 5-50-500. But I want more room for growth, and this is the most expensive route of all of these choices to reach my optimum goal of 600hp.

Alright. Now that I've gone off on my tanget, please be gentle. I want to get alot of facts and corrections from people. Not propaganda about these motors that is false, and has been spread around as facts. Again, if I was on a stricter budget, I would almost literally reverse this list. This is NOT my 1st project car, and the $13k is not "every penny" I have. I set aside $2k for the oh ****s that happen, as I am fully aware that "if anything can go wrong, it will"! The company I would get these front clips from has told me over and over again, that if anything is missing off the front clip, or damaged that I need, they will priority ship it to me for free. I would love to hear from people that have RB series motors in there s13! Any information would be greatly appreciated. I used to own a web design company, so whichever one of these swaps I do, will be FULLY documented, pictures, details, description of every tiny little problem encountered. Hopefully this will help to get the ball rolling for the rest of the 240sx community who has had the same questions, and done the same research, but wants the real world details and numbers. I'm going to keep reciepts, and log hours, as well as all equipment used, and every company that made custom X part. So dish it out boys... I can take it.

Thanks,Charles WellerHouston, Tx[email protected]Click on the motor you think I should go with...

VG30

VG30E? VG30DE? VG30ET? VG30DET? VG30DETT?

Doesn't really matter though. That would actually cost me more than an rb26dett swap, and isn't a very practical motor IMO. I've got a bunch of friends that own z32's. Have you ever looked under the hood of one of those? Well do it, and then look under the hood of an s13... you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Thanks,Charles Weller

vg35.

take a vg33etake a jun 3.2 stroker kitput it in a vg33get some headersmachine them to accept twin t04esyou have a vg35 nowsend the cylinder heads to sunbeltbe happy with 1200-1500 hp

Seriously.... I know the vg30dett and det pretty well, and HATE those motors. I'd much rather put a 350 small block in a 240sx. And I hate working with v8's.

Thanks,Charles Weller

After going through the same ordeal that you are now, I decided to stick with the KA for many of the reasons you listed....one major CON of the KA is the lack of a good aftermarket turbo manifold...one that is pissing me off severely at the moment. I did, however, come across a great deal on engine management...Holley (as in the domestic tuner company located in Bowling Green, KY...where I currently and unfortunately reside) has a Standalone that I got for a good price...$600...called the Power Commander 950.

Holley Commander 950

I haven't installed it yet, but I will let you know how it goes if I finish before you have made up your mind. Since the KA uses a distributor, it will work and work well in my opinion. I am going to install this along with my HKS GT3037 on a stock motor to get the hang of it and make sure that all the kinks are out of the system before installing my built motor...still debating what compression to run. This may be what you want to do....I don't know...but I think it will be a safe and effective route to achieving your goal...because that is my goal too.

I really feel that many of the problems associated with turboing the KA are due to people taking shortcuts and not paying attention to engine management. I also feel that out of all your options, the RB25 or 26 aside, it will be the most fun to drive because of the large amount of torque that will be made at ALL RPM's. Corky Bell said it best..."Torque = Fun"!!!!!!

First, this is not ecetiger, but Bob H. I was posting for him earlier and am still logged in under his stuff and am too lazy to log out. Ok, a few things and some background. First, I am in the process of swapping a RB26dett into a Datsun 240Z,(the old ones, 1973). You mentioned a pro for each of the RB motors as:"Only adds about XXlbs weight over the KA, and does not hinder handling" First, take a really close look at all RB swaps into a 240sx. You will notice that over HALF of the motor is IN FRONT of the strut towers. That is, my friend, is a hindrance to handling. You are sticking a bunch of weight in front of the axle,(not an axle, but front wheels), which will make it good in a straight line, but not in any form of turning. Sure, you can work around it, but look at the SR and CA motors and where the front of the motor sits in the engine bay compared to all the RB's. The RB26 barely fits the 240sx engine bay. Barely. Next, and most important. why did you set the power requirement at that level? You need to set a use goal. By that I mean what you want to do with the car. A HP goal to be honest is worthless. It really gets you nowhere and doesn't help others point you in the right direction for what you should do. What is your experience? What is the fastest car you personally have driven? Have you ever driven a 12 second car? 11 second? While going 0-60 in 3 some odd seconds and 0-100 in 6-7 seconds is cool,(that is a high 10, low 11 second car), it is worthless and downright scarey as a daily driver. For your power levels mentioned, you are talking a solid 11 second capable car assuming you can get traction, 10s if you can get it to hook up. The difference between a 12 second car and an 11 second car is rather large, despite the small difference in time. There are few folks on this board, if any, who can say they have driven a true 11 second car, (G-tech and Vericom DO NOT COUNT!). You said it will be a fun driver? Fun as in drag racing? Track events such as Drivers Educations at TWS? Jsut plain screwing around on the streets? With all that in mind, I could answer your question better. But for my money, the CA18 is the best bet. Sure the RB's are cool, but they if you want to do some drivers education events,(like the Drivers Edge, BMW clubs, etc..), you really don't want a RB. But take a close look at what Paul,(moving violation 240), did to his motor. That is a solid 400 hp setup and a good base for more power. And for his asking price of the motor and intercooler, it is really hard to beat. Heck, talk to him about what he wants for the car overall. 7500-8500 for a nice starter S13 240. Some dyno time, and aftermarket Engine management,(EMS), and you could be pushing 500 hp. Not a bad start for the money. And it is already in the car and available now. Food for thought...-Bob [email protected] if you have specific questions since I won't be notified of responses to this.

All right, got off my butt so I will know when you reply. -Bob

You know, the more I think about it, the more Paul's car,(the sticky at the top of the CA18 forum, from MovingViolation240), the more it fits your requirements. Give him a call and talk to him. You would have to drop a aftermarket EMS to get your tuning requirement. Say 2k. So for less than 10k to start, you have nearly everything, with 3k left over for dyno tuning, etc.. Not a bad start. Go for it man. He wants to sell, you want a project. And he is a fellow pilot, so in my book, he is a great person to buy from!-Bob

To be completely honest with you... I don't have a specific goal in mind as far as the use of the car. "something fast" means alot to me. I'm not a huge fan of the 1320, and am more used to freeway speeds. The fastest car I've driven was a sub 12 second integra. The fastest I've gone is a little over 160mph. The goal with this car, isn't to look like a bad ***... but more than anything build something with alot of capability. I'm more accustomed to changing my driving habits and tolerances to fit a car, rather than changing a car to fit me! 68 camaro w/383... 92 hatch with ITR swap... four banger s10... I just enjoy driving! The fact that these are high revving motors, and that's what I'm used to is kind of nice. In reply to your rb weight/handling. It hinders the car VERY LITTLE! I've heard several reviews from individuals who have done this on their s13 in japan. The trick is... you may be moving the motor 100mm forward from the stock location of the KA, but the weight towards the back of the motor/tranny is so much heavier, and the motor is lower... so there is a lower center of gravity. The outcome... Handles very similar to stock. The CA18 is probably one of my highest options... but the rb25det front clip for that cheap, and the options I have at my disposal, make that seem like the best option. I'm not interested in buying a dirty project. I've been there, and done that... I like to know exactly what goes on with the car from it's stock form forward. This isn't a vehicle I plan on parting with for a long time... I appreciate the input, but to reiterate... I really have no clue what I'm going for, except something bigger and better for around the same price! I'll cross that road when I get there... I've weighed all the other alternatives... and of them, this is my favorite... so here we go!

Thanks,Charles Weller

Charles, First rule of any project, nothing is cheap. If you are choosing a certain option because it is "cheaper" you are grossly mistaken. Think of all the custom work that will more than offset the slight amount of money saved between a RB20 and CA18. If you are going to the trouble of putting a RB motor in your 240, get the extra .5L of displacement. Either one is a full on custom job. I have done quite a few custom projects,(hybrids), and am working on the RB26 swap into my 240Z now. You stand a very good chance of busting your budget with the RB. That is the voice of experience talking. Now, I do need to address this gross misconception:Quote »In reply to your rb weight/handling. It hinders the car VERY LITTLE! I've heard several reviews from individuals who have done this on their s13 in japan. The trick is... you may be moving the motor 100mm forward from the stock location of the KA, but the weight towards the back of the motor/tranny is so much heavier, and the motor is lower... so there is a lower center of gravity. The outcome... Handles very similar to stock.[/quote] First, 100mm? That is 10cm, which is ~4 inches. The overall motor center might be 4 inches forward, but it is significantly more mass, like 50-75%. And that 4 inches forward means it is almost twice that more in overall length, or ~8 inches. A CA with tranny is in the 500 lb range. The RB26dett,(granted a bit more than the 25), is in the 750-800 range. My box was just under 1000lbs shipped. The box is about 100... Most RB's are in the 700+ lb range. You did qualify your statement as saying you have heard vice you know.... But a lower motor? Weight towards the rear? Lower, no. It will nearly poke through your hood. There is most certainly NOT a lower center of gravity with the RB vs the CA, KA or even the SR. You might say, but wait, the tranny is heavier! the actual weight difference is about 25-30 lbs for the tranny, but 150-200 for the motor. So any % increase in the tranny is more than offset by the significant weight gain IN FRONT of the struts for the RB. And since the motor is taller, and longer, the CG of the 6 cylinder is up and forward from the KA or the CA. You are likely changing the weight distribution front to rear between 5 and 10%. Think about that. If it were 50-50,(which it is not, it is front biased already) you now have 60-40. And it weighs more to boot. But let me be clear, I think the RB is a great swap. But don't let yourself be disillusioned to think IN A TRACK ENVIRONMENT that for equal hp, the RB will handle nearly the same as the CA or KA. On the street? You likely won't notice. And that is most likely where the comments from guys in Japan came from, street driving. I will tell you that 98% of the drivers on the roads can't even come close to the limits of their cars. They can exceed them,(lose control, wreck), but they can't drive the car to its limit. They merely zing past. So until you get towards that limit and stay there, the RB vs the 4 cyl is a moot point. So for your purpose, i.e. street driving, I will allow the comment that there is little difference. Again, I will point out a few things. First, the RB swap, any RB swap will require significantly more work and custom fabrication than the CA swap since the CA did come in the S13 originally. That is money and time you can spend on the car and tuning. Second, Paul's project is not a dirty project. His is fairly well refined. If you decide to go with the CA, add up how much it would be to build up the motor internals to handle 400+ hp. You would very quickly exceed Pauls asking price for his motor, turbo and intercooler setup. 3k for his motor/etc. And the Car already has the 300zx brakes with the upgraded master cylinder, Limited Slip diff, suspension among other things. This is all time, money and engineering. Buy his car, do some dyno tuning, get some printouts saying it has 400hp, maybe run some 1/4 mi's and you could likely sell it for twice what you paid if you decide the CA is not for you. And I don't know Paul from Adam. I did talk to him about his car for a friend who was looking at buying it,(my original post id, ecetiger), so don't think I am just trying to sell his. But again, the voice of experience with several projects under my belt, if you can buy someones project, which is well done,(key part), and pay 50 cents on the dollar or less, it is money well spent, even with working through their problems. Charles, you already have an open mind, so don't take this as condecending or anything like that,(including the handling issue). I'm not on the board much since I don't own a 240sx, but if I can help someone else with a major project not make the same mistakes I have made several times, I will. Driving a project is much more fun than watching and working on it in a garage. A RB swap will likely take you 6 mos to a year min to get on the road again. That is a long time to spend money with no way to really enjoy the project,(other than the joy of working on it, but trust me, driving is more fun). -Bob

lavondyss

check your mail

L28 turbo 3.1 stroker. Available at a junkyard near you. 600hp is doable parts are available and affordable.

Wow, this is old. Well, I suppose that you've already done whatever, but that won't stop me from putting in my two cents. The SR swap is relatively cheap because everything practically bolts in and parts have become plentiful lately. Go with that.

So what motor have you gone with? I'm in the planning of a project car to run in the SCCA circuit. So I’m just looking at around 300hp to start and GOOD handling characteristics. I want to DRIVE the **** out of this and still have fun as an almost daily driver. I was sold on the rb25det. But I had one doubt and that was that the car's balance would be off set in the wrong direction. And this thread would be the result of my research. I know the s13 is close to 52/48 from what I hear on some sites. but if I could do a motor swap that would keep the same or get the balance closer to 50/50 and still be able to reach my goal then that would be my best bet. I'm also looking for low cost just so I can be up and running faster but is not a biggie. Would it be in my best interest to stick with a ka24de and turbo it? I know the internals need to be changed out with some lower compression and better pistons and rods. Anyone have advice from there experience and is there even a motor that I can swap that will give me more balance or the same?