if you read my first post, i wanted cost to performance comparisons with the rb series and the vg series. and i think i said that i was looking at either a 240sx with an engine transplant, or a 300zxtt... how does a question about the rb series engine in a 240sx vs. a 300zxtt's vg30dett NOT fit into the rb series catagory of the 240sx forum??

NIC you should read also Dark is looking for capabilities of the z versus the 240, not the Z versus some one off shop monster that costs as much as his house and only goes in a straight ****ing line!and unless I miss my mark is working on a budget. The Hyper Lemon silvia that all stateside guys have a hard on for has so much coin sunk into it it is as incoceivable for dark to duplicate as the tube frame Z you mentioned. This isn't grand tourismo where cash falls out of the sky and you can throw togeter a 1500hp car by pushing the select button! Spank it to the JUN catalog if that is what you like, I couldn't care less, seriously.However Dark if you want to autocross IMO the early 240SX would in fact be a better choice. One thing NIC and I do agree on is that the Z is a yacht, the 240 is more nimble to be sure. I would think some brake and suspension upgrades are in order but that's bolt on stuff. I doubt the KA will give you the power you need to close the deal but I would leave it up to the KA tuners to give you some feedback on that, me no hablo KA.

I think the z has quite a bit of potential and I have to agree they look great. rb's are cheap to work on zed I have heard the night mare storys. as for costs if you are comparing rb 25 and vg 30 dett.the injectors are the same you need 2 turbo's instead of one and generally 2 coolers as well management is the same and you have the ability to use JIm wolf for ecu the gear box is tough.If your single and you want the birds as well as a fast car go the z .if you want a purists cars that goes and handels well then the 240 its your call I wouldnt buy a zed personally cause I love the rb's but it your money your call if some one gave me a zed I'd drive itmeggala

themadscientist wrote:NIC you should read also Dark is looking for capabilities of the z versus the 240, not the Z versus some one off shop monster that costs as much as his house and only goes in a straight ****ing line!and unless I miss my mark is working on a budget. The Hyper Lemon silvia that all stateside guys have a hard on for has so much coin sunk into it it is as incoceivable for dark to duplicate as the tube frame Z you mentioned. This isn't grand tourismo where cash falls out of the sky and you can throw togeter a 1500hp car by pushing the select button! Spank it to the JUN catalog if that is what you like, I couldn't care less, seriously.

you asked for examples, so I gave you examples. You never said a damn thing about budgets, even if you did, I'd still like to see you find a Z on a budget that can even keep up with a 240 w/ sr and "budget" susp mods in autocross or roadracing. Learn to be more specific, that way I can prove you wrong in the way that you'd like me to. Either way I proved my point, the Silvia/240sx is more CAPABLE than the 300zx. Unlike the 300zx, the 240/silvia doesn't require $20k+ to get below 12s. Unlike the 300zx, the 240/silvia doesn't require stripping the entire car and 10k+ in susp/wheel+tire mods to get decent autocross times that are at the level of the rx7 or supra w/ budget mods. Unlike the 300zx, the 240sx can weigh under 3k WITHOUT losing the luxury of backseats. Most of all, I'd like to point out, that UNLIKE the 300zx, the silvia doesn't require a 5k+ turbo upgrade (greddy tdo5 or anything custom) to get above 450hp (if you want to talk about budgets, that 5k is for a decent turbo kit, doesn't include internals and fuel upgrades which are also needed for a POS VG to get that high safely). Oh wait, another one, unlike the 300zx, it doesn't cost over $3k to rebuild a damn KA/SR motor when it blows. Oh ****, got one more left, unlike the 300zx, the silvia doesn't get you raped by your insurance company for owning a 2 seater turbocharged sports car (if you want to talk about budgets some more).

yeah you just throw the SR away when it blows. You cite extreme examples for the silvia then deny me the same luxury for the Z, seems fair to me. You discount the Z outright, that's stupid and narrow minded. You would tell a guy "don't waste your money on a KA, just by an SR", a theory that I am sure many KA owners would like to shoot down.You have not peoven your point you continue to speculate. The Jun Silvia is fast, can it follow the Bullish Z around a corner? doubt it. You do not take into account what I demanded from you, it must excell in all categories!!!! not just straight line acceleration! did you hear me that ****ing time? I can beat a godamned Z in a sprint with my POS NA Silvia, doesn't prove your point. If I stepped next to it on the highway I would have a nice veiw of dissapearing tailights. I can drift circles around a Z all day long but I can't follow it around a skid pad without kicking out the tail. The Z enjoys braking I can't touch, it has the same number of pistons in the front left wheel as I have in my whole braking system. I can add Skyline brakes(did it)I can beef up the suspension and screw with the factory geometry(did it) and he can pull out his interior and boost up, who paid more and did more driveway engineering? The Silvia owner.

themadscientist wrote:yeah you just throw the SR away when it blows. You cite extreme examples for the silvia then deny me the same luxury for the Z, seems fair to me. You discount the Z outright, that's stupid and narrow minded. You would tell a guy "don't waste your money on a KA, just by an SR", a theory that I am sure many KA owners would like to shoot down.You have not peoven your point you continue to speculate. The Jun Silvia is fast, can it follow the Bullish Z around a corner? doubt it. You do not take into account what I demanded from you, it must excell in all categories!!!! not just straight line acceleration! did you hear me that ****ing time?

why dont you go read by on your posts, at no point did you say a damn thing about comparing well rounded cars, and if you want to, the silvia will still beat the Z. I'm not naming extremes, extremes would be the HKS tube silvia, that's extreme. The JUN silvia is still a unibody, so its actually a car. I'm talking about cars, not tubes, so don't try and act like a denied you a damn thing. I also don't beleive I said a damn thing about SRs and how KAs aren't good. Seems like you keep pulling more **** out of you'r ***. I personally would rather have a built KA-T over a built SR any day of the week. As far as you'r last point regarding who spent more, the Z owner or the Silvia owner. You want to talk well rounded and the full picture, as logn as it benefits you. Yes, the Silvia owner spent more money on mods, but spent half the cost (if not less) on the car, so in the end (mister whole story) the silvia still costs less.

themadscientist wrote:stock for stock and retaining the same engine as originally equipped I would take issue with that statement. The Silvia with an SR would accord itself well versus the Z but not best it in a cumulative test of all possible measures of performance. 1/4 mile, 0-60, 60-0, top speed, skid pad G, I am very confident the Z would edge the Silvia out in every category except maybe 60' time on the strip.

Wait who's that guy? It's me! Sure sounds like the point I have been stating. How does it read in bizzaro world?

themadscientist wrote:Wait who's that guy? It's me! Sure sounds like the point I have been stating. How does it read in bizzaro world?

exactly my point loser, you keep changing **** around. I'm going by what I originally said. You make a stupid dip**** comment, I give you my opinion. You know it's right, so you change things around a little and throw some "but im talking about, even though i never said that before" crap, I give my opinion on THAT which is true, then you go and change it again. I beleive I said when did I say anything about the SR, not when did YOU say anything. Try and not mix **** around anymore, makes you look stupid.

I have been talking about that the whole time space ranger. perhaps you should read my posts, I am well aware of what I said. When dark metioned autocross the pendulum swung towards the 240sx due to the weight but that does not discount any of what I said. You beleive what you want to beleive, that's fine. You will never own any of these dreamcars you cling to at any rate nor will I so in the final analasys it matters little whether we agree or not.

themadscientist wrote:You beleive what you want to beleive, that's fine. You will never own any of these dreamcars you cling to at any rate nor will I so in the final analasys it matters little whether we agree or not.

why dont you stick to your expectations and ill stick to mine. I'll own whatever the hell I please because I have my own expectations. Keep thinking like that, your right, you WON'T ever own any nicer cars, not with that attitude.

themadscientist wrote:stock for stock and retaining the same engine as originally equipped I would take issue with that statement. The Silvia with an SR would accord itself well versus the Z but not best it in a cumulative test of all possible measures of performance. 1/4 mile, 0-60, 60-0, top speed, skid pad G,

Looky looky "what am I saying"?

themadscientist wrote:and you base that on what? Show me data where a S13 Silvia outperforms a Z in the 1/4 mile, 0-60, 60-0, skid pad Gs and top speed. Just because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is, show me hard numbers.

Same song!

themadscientist wrote: The Z will outperform the Silvia in most every category a car's performance stock for stock. The minute you start tweaking either car and all bets are off it could go either way.

There it is again! sing along!

The point is at no time did I deviate from my initial post.

Fact: do I even like Zs? NOOOOO, I have a Silvia and a 180SX, I wouldn't piss on a Z to put out a fire!

Fact: straight line acceleration from a stop with no limits to what can be done to the car in question that makes it deviate FROM STOCK, eventally the Z will fall.

Fact: will it cost alot? both cars will cost more money than I can afford, if you can great I'm happy for you

My initial statement is true, however for dark's specific purpose, autocross, I have to agree with you on that, the 240 has more potential in that arena specifically because those idiots at Nissan said "let's make the Z so big it generates it's own gravitational feild".

I just hate generalized statements like "the VG sucks" anybody can just arbitrarily say that, why? I say "the VG is undesirable" because it's a pain to work on and expensive once you pass the basic bolt-ons. It's still a pretty good motor but I would rather have an RB an L.I say "the SR is a regression" because the valvetrain is cheesy and the block is too weak(before you say "hyper lemon" it has big beefy sleeves in the block, you need that past a certain point) The CA requires none of this so I prefer that. Would I put down a guy for having an SR, no. Would I put down a guy for owning a VG, no, I sure as hell wouldn't want to help him with it!

dont worry themadscientist, that StephNic deserves to be flamed every time he posts this kind of stuff, he doesnt know what hes talking about.....he just seems angry for no reason

(I got my flame proof suit on StephNic so dont even try )

ouch, i got a discount coupon for a local anger management councilor if thatll help...

J-Spec Tuner wrote:dont worry themadscientist, that StephNic deserves to be flamed every time he posts this kind of stuff, he doesnt know what hes talking about.....he just seems angry for no reason

(I got my flame proof suit on StephNic so dont even try )

I don't know what im talking about? Werent you the loser saying skinnier wheels are better? Get a life *****.

I still don't see how you guys think the RB mtor is superior to the VG motor. The RB motor makes its huge horsepower from aftermarket intake and exhaust manifolds, along with cams and full valve train modifications.

The VG motor almost always has stock exhasut manifolds with anemic turbos and stock intake manifolds. God forbid a VG with equal mods to it would make power! Jesus christ. The vg bottom end is more stout, can rev to 9500 rpm( while the rb can and will go to 10+k, the vg will have broader power)

Think about this, the z32tt's dont go fast in a straight line because they were not made for it at all. no all wheel drive, no correct weight transfer rear suspension geometry, a bunch of things that don't go for it. the weight of the car is too much. that's not to say that the motor isn't incredibly powerful and doesn't have lots of potential.

then comes the " they are so hard to work on " argument.i've worked on those v6's all my working on cars years so they are all i know. They're much easier to work on than the new LS1s, that's for sure. ;-)

the motor is a pos engine. The RB makes power without an aftermarket intake manifold. The VG engine needs to be rebuilt with stronger internals after 450hp or so, it's been proven time and time again. When I see a VG that revs to what you speak of, ill beleive it. The VG crank has half the support as the RB engine, one of the big reasons it isn't capable of as much. Overall, the VG engine hasn't proved itself. When I see a VG engine dyno over 600hp without custom everything, then I'll consider it not to be a peice of ****. But until then, every other engine of similar size, can make more pwoer with less money/problems.

have you ever heard of stillen? steve millen ?

or paul newman?? these were the drivers of the world championship winning vg30s that produced 950 horsepower naturally aspirated in qualifying and 850 horspower during racing. they revved to 9000-9500 in qualifying but held 8000-8500 during endurance races.

maybe the motor's just too old for you youngins

850hp NA? get me some documentation to prove that bull****, and I'll beleive it. Let's also be reasonable here, I'm also talking about gasoline cars here, a street ****ing VG, not some wannabe engine that shares nothing with the original one and has a one off block that they call a VG.

actually they ran the same blocks as the facotry blocks came with, they were single over head cam, and were bored out to around 3.4 liters. however they were 24 valve singel over head cam. the heads were majorly changed around and were custom. you can buy the heads from any nissan dealership, theyu were not one-off, they were just competition heads.

why don't you crack open the nissan motorsports history books and find out for yourself about them. hell, even the old L series would rev to almost 9000.

When you talk about gasoline cars lets remember that the skyline doesnt make its 700-900 horsepower on regular gasoline either, it's all on race gas. not even supra motors make over 700 easily on pump gas. that's a very difficult feat to do.

vg30s do well over 1000 horsepower , lookat the escort z or any of the other amazing fullbodied z32s that run 8s. you wont see any in the states but go ahead and look in puerto rico. you probably don't know this but they are where all the fast imports are. they build the z31s up with the stock blocks and twinturbo rods and pistons and cams and a t66 and run like 670 to the wheels with just those mods and haltech and they run 7s and 8s with them. it's called ford 9inch rear end. You probably don't know what that is either.

maybe they dont make the absolute peak peak power that the rb does but it will make LOTS more torque and useable power.

i haven't seen anyboyd even run the new VG 3.7 stroker / sleeve motor that competition performance or whateverthe hell their name is using up in michegan.

-stephNic, your just a B'astard so admit it. -i have never ever ever ever said ANYTHING about skinny tires being better than fat ones. If i have then quote it.

-I dont know why you think vg is such a p.o.s. because every engine has its pro, cons and limits. and the vg is very capable

-with the amout of money it takes to either get a skyline or get the rb26dett in a 240sx, you could way surpass the perfomance of both by spending that money on a 300zx twin turbo and mods.

StephNic wrote:the motor is a pos engine. When I see a VG engine dyno over 600hp without custom everything, then I'll consider it not to be a peice of ****. But until then, every other engine of similar size, can make more pwoer with less money/problems.

I could think of dozens of 3 liter v-6 engines that suck a$$ compared to the vg30dett. Unless you feel the tiburon 2.7 liter v6 that makes a whopping 170 hp at the crank if far superior than a 300zxturbo.....

J-Spec Tuner wrote:-stephNic, your just a B'astard so admit it. -i have never ever ever ever said ANYTHING about skinny tires being better than fat ones. If i have then quote it.

-I dont know why you think vg is such a p.o.s. because every engine has its pro, cons and limits. and the vg is very capable

-with the amout of money it takes to either get a skyline or get the rb26dett in a 240sx, you could way surpass the perfomance of both by spending that money on a 300zx twin turbo and mods.

ive seen 300zx tts with well over 10k (the cost for the rb26 swap) put in them, that cant beat a bpu supra. Your a ****ing moron. Oh yeah, my parents were married when i was conceived and born, so suck my **** you ****ing *****.

mattback wrote:actually they ran the same blocks as the facotry blocks came with, they were single over head cam, and were bored out to around 3.4 liters. however they were 24 valve singel over head cam. the heads were majorly changed around and were custom. you can buy the heads from any nissan dealership, theyu were not one-off, they were just competition heads.

why don't you crack open the nissan motorsports history books and find out for yourself about them. hell, even the old L series would rev to almost 9000.

When you talk about gasoline cars lets remember that the skyline doesnt make its 700-900 horsepower on regular gasoline either, it's all on race gas. not even supra motors make over 700 easily on pump gas. that's a very difficult feat to do.

vg30s do well over 1000 horsepower , lookat the escort z or any of the other amazing fullbodied z32s that run 8s. you wont see any in the states but go ahead and look in puerto rico. you probably don't know this but they are where all the fast imports are. they build the z31s up with the stock blocks and twinturbo rods and pistons and cams and a t66 and run like 670 to the wheels with just those mods and haltech and they run 7s and 8s with them. it's called ford 9inch rear end. You probably don't know what that is either.

well, i highly doubt any of those nissan engines you use as examples happen to run on gasoline, or even a gasoline mixture. Im sure they run on tuolene or methanol, which is BS for what this started from. As far as those single digit porterican cars, they're tubes and an engine, none of them are full bodied cars, when i see a full bodied one with a time slip to match (dont run your mouth if you cant produce this, i can tell you i know jesus and that i can fly, unless i produce proof, that just makes me a siht talker) then ill beleive your bs claims, until then, theyre just BS.

actually theres a 7 second white 300zx that beat out steph papakadis at englishtown z31 body style Vg30 motor and running 7.80s. @ 175 mph

not full body but it is not a tube chassis car.

it runs c16

ok then, its not a real car, and it doesnt run on gasoline, or even a gasoline mixture. Exactly my point.