Rather in depth tire-question regarding narrow tires on wide rims...

[MarkEmark]

Hey fellas,

I just got my pair of 16" x 8" Bogart 2-piece welded/forged wheels (+10 mm offset) and now I need to source tires. The reason I only bought 2 is because Rich at Bogart Racing (great guy, btw) wanted to make sure they'd fit in the front which was the only question...they fit in the rear of my S14 PERFECTLY...very good size for the S14 IMO.



Unfortunately they do not fit as well in the front...the s14 was DEFINITELY engineered for a staggered setup...i think the people who designed it knew it'd eventually be running wheels/tires befitting a true sports car. Anyhow, the whole reason I only had 2 made was to make sure they'd fit in the front...but apparently due to the wheel/spoke design it'd be impossible to have these same wheels made with a 7" shell...well, it wouldn't be impossible, but Rich explained to me that the backspace of this wheel in 7" would be such that it'd stick out MORE than the minimum backspace for the 8" wide shell (which is what I have now). So I may be forced to keep these wheels in the front as well, but that's not a bad thing. They stick out a bit from the fender, but not that much, which finally leads to the purpose of this post...

If I were forced to keep these wheels for the front they would stick out a bit from the fender...



And I wanted to compensate for this by running a skinny tire in the front...I know A LOT of people are into stretching tires quite a bit for the look, drifting, etc, and that's totally not me but I don't have much of a choice. I've seen people selling wheels on here with 225 tires for a 9" rim...So I wanted to run a 205 tire in the front, because 205 mm = 8.07" and the actual overall width of the rim is 8.9375", so a 205 tire would be narrower than the actual wheel and would prevent me from having rubbing issues.

Searching tire rack, there were a lot of tires available in the 205/45/16 size that I wanted, but only ONE tire, under the "rim width range" had a range of 7" to 8"...and it happened to be a good tire that I was just about to buy the last time I bought tires (Dunlop SP Sport FM901). I'm planning on running either a 235 or 245 tire out back, and there's a lot of options for 245/45/16 tires, but I stupidly overlooked the fact that a 245/45/16 tire is substantially larger than a 205/45/16 tire (1.4" larger overall diameter). So I started looking for 245/40/16 tires, 235/45/16 tires, 245/35/16 tires and 235/40/16 tires, and lo and behold, not a single tire manufacturer that tirerack carries makes tires of this size...

So I tried looking for 205/50/16 tires, which would only be .6" smaller overall diameter than a 245/45/16 tire, but I couldn't find a single 205/50/16 tire that had a rim width range of up to 8". Even the Dunlop SP Sport FM901's had a range of 6.5" to 7.5" in 205/50/16 (even though in 205/45/16 it had a 7" to 8" tire range).

So here's my dilemma:

I need to either

a) find good, HIGH PERFORMANCE, but not extremely expensive tires for the rear that are 245/40/16, 235/40/16 or 245/35/16 or 235/45/16...and currently I haven't found any. I haven't checked much other sites but a lot of other tire sites suck compared to tire-rack when it comes to giving specs/information, etc.

b) find good, HIGH PERFORMANCE, but not extremely expensive tires for the front that are either 205/50/16 or 205/55/16 that WILL FIT an 8" rim SAFELY. I realize that a lot of people stretch the envelope (literally and figuratively) when it comes to mounting tires on rims, but I need to make sure the place I bring my wheels/tires to to have them installed will actually agree to doing it...not many tire places like installing tires that are too skinny for a rim that could present a safety hazard (see: lawsuit). Option B is the more feasible option because there are a LOT of 245/45/16 tires, so assuming I have these wheels for a while I will always have options for the rear and for the front...if I did find a tire company that made 245/40/16 tires, I'd be screwed if they stopped making this rare size. Of course, I'd be 100% set if they could have made this wheel in a 7.5" or 7" shell. But that's what happens when you're getting an extremely-rare, one-off set of wheels...

Anyway, I know this is an extremely long post, but if I haven't confused the hell out of you or lost your attention, please help me find some tires thare are gonna work for me...

Links/prices/specs are great.

Grant from tirerack? are you out there?

Thanks guys!

marc

[MarkEmark]

Hmm...searching for tires on tirerack i found ONE tire that'd fit an 8" rim..

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...8000E

It's a 205/55/16, which is a bit high but it'd match perfectly with a 245/45/16 tire (they're only 0.1" apart in overall diameter)...Do you guys know the difference between the Dunlop SP Sport 8000 (I have these tires on my current wheels right now and I love them) and the Dunlop SP Sport 8000E? What does the E mean?

Thanks...

[aither]

I'd run a 205/55/16 Falken ST-115 up front. Maybe 195/55/16, but that's asking a lot from the tire. I'm going to run 215/40/17's in those tires up front an an 8.5" wheel and maybe 235/45/17 in the rear on a 9" wheel. The tires are inexpensive, like heat and wear well. Tire rack has a special on Pirelli asymettricos for $90 a tire in a 205/50/16 size, but the 55 profile would look better, IMO.

[MarkEmark]

I'd run a 205/55/16 Falken ST-115 up front. Maybe 195/55/16, but that's asking a lot from the tire. I'm going to run 215/40/17's in those tires up front an an 8.5" wheel and maybe 235/45/17 in the rear on a 9" wheel. The tires are inexpensive, like heat and wear well. Tire rack has a special on Pirelli asymettricos for $90 a tire in a 205/50/16 size, but the 55 profile would look better, IMO.

Are the falken's designed to fit an 8" rim? According to the link of those sp sport 8000's, they can fit up to an 8" rim....I don't want to buy a tire that's only designed for a rim up to 7.5" if I'm mounting it on an 8" rim bc i'm not sure if I could find anyone to install it...

[aither]

haha, if you are trying to stretch the tire for clearance issues, then the stated rim width recomendations are not worth much all. 205/50 or 205/55 will work well and look good. It will be barely stretched, maybe. Nothing crazy like a 215/40/17 on a 10" wheel.

[MarkEmark]

Yeah I'm not stretching it for any drift purposes, just for clearance issues...

I called Bogart and they can't do a 7" rim or 7.5" that'd work for this wheel/backspace, but they CAN shave down the mounting hub so that the wheel goes in 1/4" or so more...On the negative side it means that if the wheels previously had enough clearance to be able to run 300zx calipers, they now probably don't...But I would have never known if they'd have cleared anyway (although the hub/spoke form seems to be designed specifically to clear brake calipers), so it's a useless point to argue...

[aither]

Also, you can always dial in more negative camber and/or pull the fender slightly until the wheel or tire clears the fender.

[MarkEmark]

I'd rather not..that 1/4" + 205 tires should do the trick...negative camber isn't fun with expensive tires either...

[MarkEmark]

For those of you wondering what they look like, here's some pics of the wheels that don't even do justice to their brilliant luster...absolutely jewel-like!

[Dori Dori]

What model wheel is that? I don't see them on their website. Thanks!

[chmercer]

thoes wheels will be sunk. you have to take into account that the wheel will camber into the fender well when you lower the car. you should have no trouble fitting any size tire on s14 on thoes rims. i run 235/40 in the front on 9j +15, which sticks out 8mm more than your wheels. i think i run like... 2 camber in the front? if that helps.

ps you might want to run some spacers to make it look a little better. because honestly it will be inside the fender with thoes sizes. especially in the back.

edit - i went through and read your whole post. what i would suggest in your situation would be to keep that pair of wheels you have and use them in the front. it seems you like grip more than drift, im not really sure what sizes they make tires in for 16" wheels in 235 width but i would try for somthing in there with a low profile. if you wanna go smaller like 225 you could run a lot of stuff that i know of, st115 fm901 es100 etc etc. i like st115s for the treadwear and relativley good grip. if you realllly want grip i would say run fm901 but this will give you a little squishier sidewall from what i hear. also these tires will tend to skate on you after heating up.

i take it you were gonna order another pair of rims in the back right? if you want to stick with 16x8 i would go with 0 offset with 1 degrees camber. you might be able to go lower offset with more camber, not sure, i only run 1 in the back. anyway if i was you i would probably go to a 9 or 10 in the back, if you make power. 9" would be 12 offset, 10" would be 24. depending on if you want to run big tires in the back you will have to raise the offset to keep it clear with the fender, if you are gonna lower it. i run 10j 25 with 235/45 and i need some spacers, to give you an idea.
Modified by chmercer at 7:40 AM 11/7/2004

[Nismo_Freak]

205 - 245 combo will handle really badly to be honest... you will have large differences in slip angle which will result in alot of understeer irregardless of overall tire friction.

I'd highly suggest a 225 or 235 tire for the front to be used in accordance to that rear tire.

[MarkEmark]

thoes wheels will be sunk. you have to take into account that the wheel will camber into the fender well when you lower the car. you should have no trouble fitting any size tire on s14 on thoes rims. i run 235/40 in the front on 9j +15, which sticks out 8mm more than your wheels. i think i run like... 2 camber in the front? if that helps.

ps you might want to run some spacers to make it look a little better. because honestly it will be inside the fender with thoes sizes. especially in the back.

edit - i went through and read your whole post. what i would suggest in your situation would be to keep that pair of wheels you have and use them in the front. it seems you like grip more than drift, im not really sure what sizes they make tires in for 16" wheels in 235 width but i would try for somthing in there with a low profile. if you wanna go smaller like 225 you could run a lot of stuff that i know of, st115 fm901 es100 etc etc. i like st115s for the treadwear and relativley good grip. if you realllly want grip i would say run fm901 but this will give you a little squishier sidewall from what i hear. also these tires will tend to skate on you after heating up.

i take it you were gonna order another pair of rims in the back right? if you want to stick with 16x8 i would go with 0 offset with 1 degrees camber. you might be able to go lower offset with more camber, not sure, i only run 1 in the back. anyway if i was you i would probably go to a 9 or 10 in the back, if you make power. 9" would be 12 offset, 10" would be 24. depending on if you want to run big tires in the back you will have to raise the offset to keep it clear with the fender, if you are gonna lower it. i run 10j 25 with 235/45 and i need some spacers, to give you an idea.

Modified by chmercer at 7:40 AM 11/7/2004

If you look at the pictures the front wheels stick out of the fender well quite a bit,and the rears are completely flush with the fender...When I ordered the other pair of wheels I had them shave 1/4" off the moutning hub to decrease offset by 6 mm so they wouldn't stick out in the front...Although i can always use the 6 mm spacers I have right now but honestly I know these will sit plenty flush for my likes...I actually feel that if I have 245's in the rear the tires will stick out a little...i DO NOT want to be forced to roll my fender, nor do I want to rub. I'm running like -1.5 deg. camber right now with my KTS coilovers. The car is already lowered about 2-2.25" from stock too...about as low as I want it...

So you run a 9" wide wheel, +15 with a 235 tire in the front with no rubbing issues?!?!?!

Nismo_Freak...I was worried that the 40 mm difference in tire width would make it handle weird...but I'm only doing this for practical reasons (ie, NOT having my tires rub/hit the fender lip when they travel). I didn't think it would be that much of a detriment to handling because I know Porsche Boxsters are fitted with 205 tires in the front, 255's in the rear...and they aren't like the 911 in that, IIRC, their weight distribution is more like 50/50 as with the 240...

I think I may get a 215 for the front, which will only be a 30 mm discrepancy between the tire width...assuming that i can fit them...

My car right now has 205's up front, 225's in the back and it's COMPLETELY neutral at the limit...more prone to oversteer than anything else...could you explain slip angle though?

thanks

[MarkEmark]

What model wheel is that? I don't see them on their website. Thanks!

That's because they don't manufacture/sell them

This was more or less a one-off job.

[chmercer]

So you run a 9" wide wheel, +15 with a 235 tire in the front with no rubbing issues?!?!?!

bingo

i promise, it will look mexi style while your car is in the air but it will tuck in once its on the ground. you could easily run a 235 on that wheel with no clearance issue. you could probably run 245 or higher if you wanted. i know of guys with 255. also you should probably roll your fenders anyway. it dosent change the appearance of the car at all. just gives you more room.

[MarkEmark]

chmercer...do you have any pics of your car with those wheels/tires?!?

[Nismo_Freak]

Nismo_Freak...I was worried that the 40 mm difference in tire width would make it handle weird...but I'm only doing this for practical reasons (ie, NOT having my tires rub/hit the fender lip when they travel). I didn't think it would be that much of a detriment to handling because I know Porsche Boxsters are fitted with 205 tires in the front, 255's in the rear...and they aren't like the 911 in that, IIRC, their weight distribution is more like 50/50 as with the 240...

OEM tire sizing is designed to promote understeer.

The 240SX has a ~ 53::47 weight distribution, and is a FR layout, not a MR layout like the Boxster. Even so, what works on one car does not work on every car.

[chmercer]

chmercer...do you have any pics of your car with those wheels/tires?!?

you act like im lying or somthing, i promise 9" wheel +15 offset 235 tire is NO PROB. heres an old pic. this is with 2 camber front and about 8.5 caster. 235/40 on 17x9 +15.

[MarkEmark]

you act like im lying or somthing, i promise 9" wheel +15 offset 235 tire is NO PROB. heres an old pic. this is with 2 camber front and about 8.5 caster. 235/40 on 17x9 +15.

Noo...I didn't mean to act like I was questioning what you said..I just wanted to see a picture so I could see what the fitment was like with 235's and +15 offset so I can purchase tires accordingly...those wheels and tires seem to fit pretty well, although from the picture it definitely looks like they're outside of the fender well a bit, especially in the rear...are your fenders rolled?...are they 17 x 9 +15 in the rear too?

And with 2 camber I assume you mean -2 deg. of camber, correct?

[chmercer]

yes -2 camber. the rear is 17x10 +25. they are pretty flush with the fender, that pic just looks wierd since the car is so high and the rear tires suck, the sidewall baloons when you stretch it. makes it look goofy. looks better now that i have a kit on it, but i dont have a pic of that.

[Nismo_Freak]

Get off mah ride NUKKA!

Check out this drift spec ride... got the stretch and the "flushness" goin on.

[chmercer]

u talkin **** about mah whip julio?

mark - forgot to mention, the front is rolled, and the rear is pulled.

[aither]

Check out this drift spec ride... got the stretch and the "flushness" goin on.

OK, it's not drift spec for several reasons. White wall = bad. It's super 4x4. 100 spokes? Come on, it's all about mesh wheels. Plus, a drift spec car should have wide wheels. Those things are like golf car rollers. They are not even flush. Plus there's no camber. The fender does not look modified.

Not quite drift spec looking at all.

[MarkEmark]

u talkin **** about mah whip julio?

mark - forgot to mention, the front is rolled, and the rear is pulled.

Well that's a pretty huge/significant difference between your s14 and mine...I don't want to need to have to pull or roll anything...

[chmercer]

you dont, people run my setup on stock fender. i am saying thats why its wierd looking in the pic. If you notice in the front fender, see how it is so high up, there is no way it would hit the fender unless i caught air or somthing.

im done with this thread. if you want to play it conservative then thats cool. get the reccomended wheel size for your car or whatever. hell my front wheels are reccomended for the rear of a mustang. but if you want somthing that looks cool then i would be glad to help you figure out how to fit it.

ps - the julio comment was at nismo, not you haha

[MarkEmark]

you dont, people run my setup on stock fender. i am saying thats why its wierd looking in the pic. If you notice in the front fender, see how it is so high up, there is no way it would hit the fender unless i caught air or somthing.

im done with this thread. if you want to play it conservative then thats cool. get the reccomended wheel size for your car or whatever. hell my front wheels are reccomended for the rear of a mustang. but if you want somthing that looks cool then i would be glad to help you figure out how to fit it.

ps - the julio comment was at nismo, not you haha

lol...I'm pretty sure this setup is going to look plenty "cool" when I'm done, kand it'll fit too. You'll see, it'll be flush on 4 corners...Just wait till thanksgiving...

[MarkEmark]

Just an update...

I ordered tires today...rear tires will be on 16" x 8" +10 mm, they will be Yokohama AVS Sports, 245/45/16.

Front tires will be on 16" x 8" +16 mm, they will be Kumho Ecsta MX 225/50/16.

I am so broke right now. Those tires cost $538 shipped...rims were $1100 + shipping, and a month and a half ago I dropped $1167 in KTS Coilovers. ARGH! At least it's all top of the line stuff

Anyway, if everything goes according to plan (which i think it will), the wheels/tires will be on the car thanksgiving week and I'll have numerous pictures posted as promised

[turtl631]

why different brand tires?

[aither]

more understeer?

[MarkEmark]

more understeer?

No, I want to keep it as neutral as possible.

I wanted to go with Kumho ecsta mx's all around but they don't make them in 245/45/16...so I got the kumhos for the front and the yokohamas for the rear. Both tires are supposed to be extremely good, and they both have identical ratings...treadware 200, traction AA, temperature A.

I'm running 2 different brands of tires on my car right now, yokohamas in the front and dunlops in the rear, with a 20mm difference between width and the car is completely neutral at the limit...if it turns out this new setup will introduce understeer (which I highly doubt it will), I can always adjust my completely adjustable coilovers to correct it, or even just add a few psi to the rear tires and take a few from the front. It certainly won't be a large problem, that's for sure.