rant - sick of cheap asses

[defrag010]

Has anyone else noticed a recent influx of these incredibly cheap *** people, who offer you pennies on the dollar for something that's worth alot more like they expect things to cost pennies?It used to not be like this... I used to do all kinds of work and sell all kinds of parts and make some good profit. It's just like it all started within the past few months. I list rebuilt motors and motor parts up for sale, and people offer me these ridiculous lowball offers that wouldn't even cover the cost of freight, let alone the cost of the motor... or they want to trade for this piddly *** junk that is useless. For about the past two years or so, I had a steady flow going. Use my work income to pay the bills and live, and spend my "blow" money on cores and parts, and rebuild and sell stuff. I used to make a killing selling rebuilt stuff, even at super deal prices. That's how I ended up with stuff like a new 56" 1080p dlp and hd-dvd setup in my living room paid for, among other nice expensive toys. Now, I'm embarrased to say, but I'm at a complete halt and have become backed up, and it's 100% due to all of these cheap asses who offer me like 100 bucks for a rebuilt chevy 350 shortblock, or always back out of a deal at the last minute because they can't afford it. I have a rebuilt VG33 that I put some forged pistons in that I'm trying to unload, and so far every place I list it, these people make offers that are so low it wouldn't even cover the freight, let alone the price of the motor.all of the people who aren't afraid to step up and drop some cash on rebuilt stuff need to come back out of the woodwork.

If I were to take an extra VH45 shortblock I have and rebuild it, how much would any of you pay for it?

[elwesso]

Figure a rebuilt short block woudnt even be worth a JDM motor since the parts are probably not worn out.. Plus you dont have to reassemble EVERYTHING.

You can get a nice JDM motor for a grand, so I'd say a rebuilt short block VH45DE would be worth about $600 or so (proabbly no more than that), assuming you have all of the parts to put it back together on hand.

The nice thing for you is you can get almost free VH45's that have a spun bearing or the guides broke.

In all I still think the smarter plan is to get a JDM motor thats in tip top shape, rehab the minor stuff, like hoses and injectors, clean it up nice and install.

If you're getting such lowball offers you are obviously marketing to the wrong crowd, because either they dont need the parts that bad or they are getting the parts that cheap somehow (quality out of the question)

[Mettler]

Man it might be to do with the economy, aren't you guys having some issues over there due to military overspending over the last few years?

Mind you, cheapasses are everywhere. Here in NZ there are ****loads of window shoppers, daydreamers and timewasters who aren't prepared to pay for what things are worth. You just have to be patient and deal with it.

[defrag010]

dang, that would be pretty hard to make profit off of... seeing as how new pistons and rings are still over 320 dollars, along with bearings and gaskets.

how much would you give for a complete rebuilt vh45 withr ebuilt heads and gaskets and timing chain guides all assembled as a longblock??

[tmorgan4]

I would have paid a good amount if you asked me a month ago. I really with I would have found that VG you had when I was looking but the VH should be sweet none the less.

I think to make any profit off rebuilding engines you're going to have to have a commercial account and get wholesale prices on parts.

[elwesso]

one of the things that sucks is that the VH45 if taken care of doesnt need rebuilt often at all... So honestly, even with all new crap I wouldnt pay much more than a JDM motor.

If EVERYTHING was brand new, all new OEM hoses, new KS, all injectors are perfect, basically it was a turnkey motor ready to go for 100k miles, then maybe $2000 at the VERY MOST, more like $1500 to be reasonable. Still, id be more likely to buy 2 JDM motors for $1000 each and end up WAY ahead in the long run.

The VH's street value is probably its biggest selling point and its biggest weakness.

[defrag010]

tmorgan, ive mentioned it in other posts, but I have accounts with pretty much any parts company you can think of, and I get my parts at cost. Like I said, I've been doing this for a few years, and it has all been gravy until just recently.I made alot of money on 6.0L "ls1" heads... used to buy cores for about 75$ per pair, buy some stem seals for 20something$ through work, rebuild them, and they would sell for 350-400 dollars all day. I used to be able to make at least half or more back in profit, but its like everyone just stopped buying stuff all of a sudden. "business" used to be gooooood.

wes, that's just one thing I don't get.. not griping or anything, but I never understood how people could have faith in these used motors. I would rather peel my toenails out than put a used motor in any of my cars. Don't take this the wrong way, but that drives me crazy when I see people talk about "just getting a jdm motor". I think that's the difference between doing things the right way, and doing things just good enough. I have a bunch of honda friends that all buy "jdm" motors just to save a few hundred dollars over rebuilding theirs, and the jdm motors turn out to be bad. Especially with the 13B-T rotaries. Then, you're out the money for the jdm motor, and whatever it costs to have it rebuilt! With a jdm motor, you're getting a chance at getting an okay motor that's not worn out, but you are also chancing on getting something that was abused all of its life and will self destruct shortly. With a rebuild, you are guaranteed results and you know exactly what you're getting.

So how much would you pay for some cams and valve springs whenever mettler gets his prototype batch finished?
Modified by defrag010 at 7:23 PM 9/11/2007

[tmorgan4]

Any chance you'd like to resell some stuff? I need to buy pistons, rings, and bearings. If you can get them I'd rather go through you than the companies I've spoken to lately that make it a chore to find someone that speaks English.

[elwesso]

tmorgan, ive mentioned it in other posts, but I have accounts with pretty much any parts company you can think of, and I get my parts at cost. Like I said, I've been doing this for a few years, and it has all been gravy until just recently.I made alot of money on 6.0L "ls1" heads... used to buy cores for about 75$ per pair, buy some stem seals for 20something$ through work, rebuild them, and they would sell for 350-400 dollars all day. I used to be able to make at least half or more back in profit, but its like everyone just stopped buying stuff all of a sudden. "business" used to be gooooood.

wes, that's just one thing I don't get.. not griping or anything, but I never understood how people could have faith in these used motors. I would rather peel my toenails out than put a used motor in any of my cars. Don't take this the wrong way, but that drives me crazy when I see people talk about "just getting a jdm motor". I think that's the difference between doing things the right way, and doing things just good enough. I have a bunch of honda friends that all buy "jdm" motors just to save a few hundred dollars over rebuilding theirs, and the jdm motors turn out to be bad. Especially with the 13B-T rotaries. Then, you're out the money for the jdm motor, and whatever it costs to have it rebuilt! With a jdm motor, you're getting a chance at getting an okay motor that's not worn out, but you are also chancing on getting something that was abused all of its life and will self destruct shortly. With a rebuild, you are guaranteed results and you know exactly what you're getting.

So how much would you pay for some cams and valve springs whenever mettler gets his prototype batch finished?

Modified by defrag010 at 7:23 PM 9/11/2007

Ive had exactly the opposite of experiences with VH45. First, my Q has a swapped JDM VH45 in it. It was rehabilitated (basically just resealed, no "internals" were messed with) and its not given me ANY trouble WHATSOEVER for the past 50k miles. This is exactly what T3 does, and overall their experiences with JDM VH are spectacular. of course, you have to inspect the motors (make sure the heads are CLEAN) before you buy them to make sure that everything is kosher.

This is what Q45tech/T3 recommends doing, they never think over the course of 100k-150k-200k miles that its worth rebuilding the motor, since rebuilding it costs way more than getting a JDM motor which is likely to last just as long.

The fact that VH45's can go 300-350k and run hard often and not have to be rebuilt and still run really good speaks for itself....

[defrag010]

yeah, I guess that's just where people are different. A jdm engine probably is the best thing as stock replacements for people to just drive in their old Q45's.

How much would you pay for a VH45 with aftermarket H-beam rods and some 2618 forged pistons, custom valvetrain with billet cams and bigger valves and ported heads?

[ScottJackson]

Man it might be to do with the economy, aren't you guys having some issues over there due to military overspending over the last few years?

Mind you, cheapasses are everywhere. Here in NZ there are ****loads of window shoppers, daydreamers and timewasters who aren't prepared to pay for what things are worth. You just have to be patient and deal with it.

SHHHHHHHH! Don't talk about our military overspending. We like to keep ourselves in the dark and blame China and Mexico for all our economic woes. If we had the truth, we wouldn't support our war on terror, wave our flags like idiots, and buy lots of yellow ribbon stickers for our cars.

[ultrapulse]

Hate to get political, but from an outsider it appears that the "war on terror" is only a part of the reason to go to war in Iraq. I have met quite a few americans and done a limited amount of travelling in the US, have been generally pleasantly surprised and am keen to go back. However I think the movers and shakers, and especially the US govt has a very dark dishonest side. I see our cousins the aussies looking over thinking the US way is the way forward...what the ****? Get that clown out of power and get you're boys out of that complex, deep seated hatred, fanatical civil mess of a country, and just spend a whole lot less keeping them out of your country and be done with it.Anyway thats my blowout for a while. About the thrifty (or unrealistic) buyers, we see that as well. There seems to be soo much "stock" out there that people just try their luck. Also more young people have different priorities and morals with easy credit and big dreams of having it now. We also have quite a few asians selling really cheap everything over here on trademe. Most of it is ****e but sooo cheap! I guess market it properly and I for one would buy recond, as long as its reputable and not just a recond paint job. maybe a std JDM luxury car auto VH 'should' have less chance of being rubbish, but anything hipo gimme new or overhauled anyday as I hate doing it all again. At the end of the day defrag just look back and be happy with what you have got as I suspect your margins will get less in the forseeable future. Supply and demand. Just seems to be the way.

[tmorgan4]

Defra010,

Not sure if you saw it above or not, but if you're willing I'd like to get some parts. If not it's no biggie as I'm sure I can find them somewhere else. Just figured it could work out well for both of us if you've got commercial accounts with companies already.

[RichZilla]

I use JDM engines all the time. As long as you have a good supplier, things generally don't go wrong. In Australia, these engines have usually done less than 100 000kms. I have 100% faith in the JDM VH45 that I'm putting in my Mercedes.

And as for my 300ZX, if the VG30DET ever blows up, I can get another one for $650 and sell the turbo for $350. Total cost:$300 plus major service bits - timing belt, water pump etc.

I experience cheap people all the time at work. But then there are the good ones who don't ask how much. I had a guy with a late model Jag that needed a service and a new EGR pipe. I spent four hours on it and his bill came to $1300. No worries. He didn't even flinch. I put four exhaust tips on an Espada yesterday - spent three hours doing some schmick tailpipes and merge collectors. His bill came to $730. No worries.

A kid came in wanting me to fit air horns to his Mercedes. Told him $90 and he almost fell over.

[DeXteR]

i have to say, i'm seeing a lot of the cheap-*** people too. however, it's not just lately. i think it's mostly, punk kids who drive their honda, dsm, and s13 around and buy "upgrade" parts from ebay. the market is becoming flooded with cheap parts from china, and ebay delivers it right to your door.

people are more concerned about price than quality. until they blow up a couple engines and have to pay for it themselves (instead of mommy and daddy paying for it), then they might wise up and become spenders again.

another thought is that the market has become flooded with band-wagon jumpers. they don't know what it takes to play ball on this court. they just want their car to look fast and have cool "jdm" stuff on it. the "ricers" if you will. they think cars are all about drifting and the fast and the furious type of thing and really have no clue what it takes to have a real car. once they grow up, they'll leave the market.

another possability is that the rest of the cheap people are people like me who have figured out that we can do everything ourselves. with the wide range of information available on the internet, experiences we've gained, and access to parts, we can rebuild our own engines. if we run into a problem, we jump on nico and get help from someone that's done it before and it doesn't cost us a cent.

i'm with you defrag, i'd prefer to rebuild my engine before putting it in. it's better than putting it in, have it break, pull it back out to rebuild it, and install it again. then you've got more time and money wrapped up in it than if you would have just rebuilt the engine you had in the first place.

i can see myselft getting way off topic with this, so i'll stop after this next thought:

the market changes. you need to be fluid enough to change with it or smart enough to know when to get out. good luck with your endeavors.

[defrag010]

tmorgan, I am not the boss, so I would have to pull off some stunts to start ordering parts to engines that I don't bring in, I don't think I could get away with that.. sorry.

Just imagine, richzilla, if none of your customers were willing to spend the money necessary to get what's done. working on cars is different than building motors, because people will always need work done to their cars. What no one realizes, is this "jdm" cheap engine craze has been putting a serious hurt on the automotive rebuilder industry for a long time. They always talk about building up this and that, but all they ever do is just buy cheap jdm motors and keep on putting them in when the next one blows up.

I wish there was a way I could be fluid enough to change, but there is only so much you can do with rebuilding motors. You buy, rebuild, and sell.. that's pretty much all you can rely on.

Everyone always talks about how the vh is such an awesome motor with all this engineering and that, yet they put a low monetary value on it just because it's so cheap to get a used one from japan. New timing chain guides almost cost as much as a whole motor from japan.. it's kind of ironic when you think about it. That might be fine for a stock motor, but for the people who are actually doing something spectacular with their VH swaps and builds, "just buying a jdm" engine won't cut it. Besides the people who swap stock vh's into little cars, how many people on here are really doing something with their VH?

no one has answered my questions.. how much would you pay for an all forged aftermarket shortblock w/ built heads, valvetrain, and cams? If mettler comes out with his new billet cams and spring kit, and the price is at 700$... are any of you going to buy that? You could almost get a jdm motor for that much, huh.

[SSDwellah]

The VH swap should be done soon for me and I want to drive the car around a bit as is, but to answer your question, I will probably be buying mettler's cam/valvetrain upgrade.

The thing I am most worried about is being able to get my ecu properly retuned after upgrades like this. Most tuners don't know **** about this motor and I don't want to have to go standalone. For example I have a 240 with a one-off turbo kit and FMIC with SR20DET injectos, just running a low 10PSI max. It goes pretty good, the ECU was a JWT "off-the-shelf" tune. It's not running bad, but I can tell it's still too rich (from the black bumper to the occasional backfire etc...). I would much rather have my engine dyno tuned specifically, rather than trusting someone's one-size-fits-all chip... but that really lends itself to standalone.

To get back more on your topic. There are cheapskates everywhere. The recent (past 5 years or so) rise in popularity of import tuning in the US with movies like F&F, car magazines, etc... have only made them interested in your field so it's more apparent to you. I'm sure people in other expensive hobbies have had to deal with the same thing too. Some people low-ball because they really have no friggen clue what something is worth, others with the expectation that they are going to get a high rip-oof counter-offer and then meet somewhere reasonable in between. Then there is the third kind of low-baller. Unforntunately, like any business there will be plenty of dreamers, cheapskates, penny-pinchers, and just people in general with champagne thoughts and bud light money. These are the people you politely don't piss off so that you don't get a bad rep, but at the same time don't give them any of your time or resources. If someone really is a fan and interested in something, he will pay a fair price.

Cash still rules everything around me... obscure VH45 reference, did anyone ever notice the Q45 in the Wu-tang Cream video long ago? There was a 300ZX in there too.

Defrag,I have been thinking in the long run I want to go FI on this car too but do to the spacing and the fact I still want this car to be a little bit of a sleeper and/or not impossible to work on, TT is prob out of the question. But a trick, Vortec V2 SC or a single turbo might be more up my alley. at that time, if you are still doing what you do, I my contact you about a built shortblock with lower C/R pistons (maybe 9.5 to 9.0:1 for SC, or 9.0 to 8.5:1 for turbo). Until then, good luck and keep plugging away at it.

[ScottJackson]

Yeah, I started actually laughing a bit when I saw that C.R.E.A.M. reference. That white Q at the begining of the vid is so pimp! If the Mettler cams actually have some bite to them (make good power around 8000rpm) and the VH ends up being able to fit in my '69 mustang, I'd save my pennies to buy a set of cams and springs at $700 US. I mean, I could buy a set of bare aluminum heads for my 514 at that price and make a LOT more power, but with the price of gas and such, I want my car to be more of a long distance and daily type driver. Plus, tires aren't cheap and I love hearing an engine wailing at high rpms (the 514 I have is only safe to a constant 6500-7000rpm max... which I guess still isn't too terrible) and if I can get 500 peaky horses out of the VH or 550 torquey horses out of the 514, I'd rather just run the VH and keep my license instead of melting the tires and losing it.

[T45]

What the VH does with impeccable style and dazzling grace, american iron does it with sheer mass and brute force.

I work on cheap a$$ gm and ford marine engines all day. They make me sick to my stomach. We had one come in with 100 hours on it and apparently it broke a ring and scored cyl 8.

I'd rather have lower power numbers and a MUCH smoother engine with a broader, more usable powerband than a vibrating monstrocity waiting to leave me stranded or out of gas. Higher numbers don't always mean a better performing engine, they're just numbers. What really matters is how the car drives.

[Florida240sx]

How much would you want to sell a rebuilt vh45de for? I'm interested.

[ScottJackson]

T45, you're absolutely right... if comparing a stock smog era U.S. engine to the VH45. But the beauty in the U.S. iron is that there's a lot of unturned stones. Small changes can make huge differences and there's so many to be had. As for an engine breaking a ring and scoring the cylinder, a broken ring won't score a cylinder but a ring that has been severely overheated or was installed with too little gap will score the cylinder and then break. So either it was an assembly error, a cooling error, or a tuning error (detonation)... or a combination of those things. I don't work on marine engines and I don't work on GM and Ford engines every day, but I've rebuilt a few and done some performance mods. I think the VH has its strong points and the American iron does too. If GM or Ford would make a copy of the VH but give it something like a 4.2-4.5" bore and 4" stroke for a new mustang or camaro (for a reasonable price), I'd be all over it. I love the fact that a 429 ford can be stroked to a 521 (4.3" stroke) and still be over square. If it had bigger versions of the VH heads, i'd accept the hit in fuel economy that 8+liters brings. Numbers are not just numbers. You can't just say "my honda 1.6L makes 700hp" when it really only makes 200. The numbers do have meaning and they do carry significance. I've seen bone stock U.S. engines that vibrate and make funky noises and I've also seen warmed over small blocks that absolutely rip and yet they have very wide power bands and are nearly (yes, I said nearly, not completely) as smooth as the VH. If you get some decent heads for a U.S. v8 allong with light pistons and get it balanced and a cam that's not too big, you can have an engine that I would choose over a stock VH for most applications. That said, I do like the VH for what it is... a small V8 that gets decent mileage and has lots of potential out-of-the-box.

[defrag010]

yeah, alot of marine engines die way prematurely because it's just the nature of their use. You hold any engine, import or "American iron" at high rpm under load for the whole time you're driving the boat, and stuff will wear out quicker than you think and break easier. That's why very few boat engines make it past a few thousand hours.If you want to go comparing american motors to the VH45, just look at the 4.6 and 5.4 dohc. The early 4.6 dohc motors are very very similar to the vh45, and they even have siamese port heads. Thing is they are just as smooth, and make more power over the same range as a vh45 without the use of vct.

florida, I could sell you a rebuilt siamese vh45 w/ new pistons/rings/bearings/rebuilt heads, all machine work done, new gaskets everywehre, metal timing chain guides, all assembled w/ intake manifold for 1750$

[tmorgan4]

florida, I could sell you a rebuilt siamese vh45 w/ new pistons/rings/bearings/rebuilt heads, all machine work done, new gaskets everywehre, metal timing chain guides, all assembled w/ intake manifold for 1750$

That is a hell of a deal. I should have done this from the beginning.

I would bet I will easily have over $2k in parts alone by the time I'm finished.

[Q45tech]

People don't bother to research VH45 VVT and see that the purpose was to create a very very very smooth idle and to boost torque in the 2000-4600 rpm range at WOT..............very little of VVT actually increased peak HP as it was all done by 4800 rpm.........................sure there was a 5-8% increase vs a fixed mild cam but this was from runner taper/plenum tuning.

Without VVT domestics usually split the overlap difference and gave up some idle smoothness generated 20 lb/ft less torque but met or exceeded the high rpm HP.

Without direct injection and using a single TB the 75 lb/ft per liter wall is still around if emission requirements are met.

A good model was Lexus 1998 introduction of VVT on 10 year old 4.0 to bridge the gap until the 2003 4.3 displacement bump up.

[qsiguy]

Depending what I find when I dig into my newly acquired NOS explosion damaged Q45 I may be in the market for a replacement VH. I will likely be a while before I dive into that project tho. Still finishing my turbo Q. After that the wife has some honey do's for me before I can start another project

On subject, E-Bay really jacked up the car stereo business for me. I tried to capitalize on it but it definitely required some adjustments. People would see an alarm on e-bay for about $50 when I was selling them for $200+ installed. The ad would tell them "easy install" and then when they couldn't figure it out they would call and when they got a $150-$200 labor quote they choke. Or they try to get me to sell it for $50. I always tell them, if you can buy it elsewhere for that buy it. No point in me selling it for cost, thanks for calling....

[tmorgan4]

How much would you charge to rebuild a set of heads? I've got a set that the guy I bought them from said he's 99% sure they're good, but I'm rebuilding the rest of the engine and considering just having these done while it's out.

[Nyloc]

Its everywhere, here in noo zealand the engine reconditioners are suffering as well. JDM import cars are ridiculously cheap here,compared to the cost of repairing a 10 year old engine its cheaper to just go buy another car. Instant finance is available on a new car too.People dont value quality labour anymore either, and some dont even understand the concept of labour and knowledge being worth something. I could blame china, but they are simply taking advantage of the consumer greed and laziness so prevelant in the western world today.

I should add the busy engine builders are the ones doing race engines, and the others are surviving largely on vintage / commercial work.

[ultrapulse]

Also I think generally speaking engines are more reliable now. Back when I used to drive hillman avengers, ford escorts and holden sixes you would do bearings, pistons and rods (plus gearboxes and diffs). They stuffed out like having a sh*t. Yes I thrashed them, however most modern cars will take more abuse with less bang. Sure more have turbos but even still the reliability is there. 20years ago one of my mates whos car gave the smallest dramas was a Datsun 120Y. Something the japs do well, look at the best design then put it to good use. (and i dont mean the 120y:).But yeah for non-race purpose reconning an engine seems to be more something you do to a non-jap engine (if u dont go buying a crate engine:).

[T45]

I don't know the true root of the scored cyl problem but I do know that we haven't had any yamaha 4 stroke issues other than minor tuning. However we also had a Quiksilver small block that we purchased that blew a head gasket within an hour of running. Don't know what happened there either, could have been parts or assembler.

It just pisses me off that the foreign brands have been pushing the engineering envelope constantly and the U.S. engineers seem to follow suit with engines like the ford 4.6 that are a lot like the VH simply because they had a good blueprint to follow. How long did GM run 350 small blocks in production vehicles? I believe it was into the mid 90's if not later. And mopar is still cranking out crappy engines to this day. I expected my first ride in the Charger SRT8 to be overwhelming, instead it made me realize that my sisters trailblazer could take it.

That's the U.S. though, sellers try to get top dollar and buyers try to get it for free. Therefore you end up with overpriced junk for products, underpaid blue collar workers and the govt laughing all the way to the bank with tax money paid 1-50 times on a single vehicle in it's lifetime.

[defrag010]

US manufacturers have been pushing the same engineering envelope that the jap companies have. Take a look at the northstar and shortstar dohc v8's, ford seems to be doing something right with their modular design motors, and let's not forget the LT5 dohc v8.. there are only so many ways you can design a dohc v8.Also, the reason GM used gen1 and gen2 sbc's up until the late 90's is because it is a good design and had a great reputation. That's why you will see mainly sbc's when you go to the races, compared to an import dohc v8. Sure you hear of the 1uz's and vh45's lasting so many miles and having such a less failure rate, but also look at how many of them were made compared to a sbc.... the number of sbc engines made and in cars since the conception totally thwarts the number of import dohc v8's out there, and of course if you have more motors out there, your failure rate will be higher. That's not saying the import dohc v8's are bad, but the domestic company's motors aren't total junk either. I know of alot of 300 fords, 350 chevys, 351 windsors, etc, with over 200k miles on them.Just remember, every motor has it's drawbacks. Look at the VH45's plastic timing chain guides for example.