Rant, I don't like the way they troubleshoot cars

[Victor]

I worked over 28 years in the electronics industry as a field engineer on all sorts of complex military electronics systems ranging from radars to satellites to computers to lasers to you name it. I even had to teach myself to repair diesel and gas turbine generators as they were part of our systems. In the beginning we used to troubleshoot to the component level, but as things got more complex we would just troubleshoot to the module or circuit card level and send the bad subassembly back to the factory to be tested on million dollar computerized test jigs.But anyway, if we changed out an assembly and it didn't fix the problem we would take it out and put the old assembly back in and not charge the customer for it.In contrast, in the auto repair industry if they suspect a part is bad they will put in a new part and charge you for it whether it fixes the problem or not, and just keep doing that until they finally hit the right bad part.My suggestion would be car dealers would be required to maintain a complete set of troubleshooting spares. If the spare didn't fix the problem the old part would go back in and not be charged for. Obviously you couldn't do this for items that required a lot of reassembly before you find out if it fixed the problem, but would work for easy to change items like electrical parts and external bolt on items.Again I wouldn't expect independents to be required to maintain a supply of troubleshooting spares, but authorized car dealers should.

[maxnix]

If cars were high buck custom electronics, it would make sense.

Essentially, that is what most dealerships do, except they use new parts presumed to be good. Most parts are less expensive to replace than to diagnose why they failed. High labor costs relative to mass produced parts cost.

Read Q45tech's posts on shop economics.
Modified by maxnix at 5:07 PM 4/22/2008

[paranoidjack]

I worked over 28 years in the electronics industry as a field engineer on all sorts of complex military electronics systems ranging from radars to satellites to computers to lasers to you name it. I even had to teach myself to repair diesel and gas turbine generators as they were part of our systems. In the beginning we used to troubleshoot to the component level, but as things got more complex we would just troubleshoot to the module or circuit card level and send the bad subassembly back to the factory to be tested on million dollar computerized test jigs.But anyway, if we changed out an assembly and it didn't fix the problem we would take it out and put the old assembly back in and not charge the customer for it.In contrast, in the auto repair industry if they suspect a part is bad they will put in a new part and charge you for it whether it fixes the problem or not, and just keep doing that until they finally hit the right bad part.My suggestion would be car dealers would be required to maintain a complete set of troubleshooting spares. If the spare didn't fix the problem the old part would go back in and not be charged for. Obviously you couldn't do this for items that required a lot of reassembly before you find out if it fixed the problem, but would work for easy to change items like electrical parts and external bolt on items.Again I wouldn't expect independents to be required to maintain a supply of troubleshooting spares, but authorized car dealers should.

Take note of the fact that re-installing some parts may prove to cause premature wear on the item (especially numerous times). I don't know about you, but when I pay hundreds of dollars for a part I want to make sure no fluids have gone through it and it hasn't been wrenched on.

Also, swapping some parts out can be extremely time consuming and impractical.

[Victor]

Thats why I say these parts are only to be used for troubleshooting. If the troubleshooting part fixes the problem it is removed and replaced with a brand new part. If it doesn't fix it the old part is reinstalled.Another method of troubleshooting is to take the suspected bad part and install it in a known good system, in this case it would be a known working car and see if the problem now appears in the known good car.Thats why I said everyone should have a parts car hanger queen as a source of troubleshooting/repair parts.

[Q45tech]

T3 often installs a part and doesn't bill our known and long time customers until we check back with them a week later to make sure the part fixes the problem........usually ecu, maf, cas..................every other electronic module is easy to see/feel a failure.

After 18 years we KNOW what fails and when, unfortunately dealers don't keep or pay for old timer technicans.

Dealers segragate PARTS into a separate profit center and the shop must buy parts at retail to add to a customers car so that Only Parts and USED CARS are profitable.

Diagnostics is a problem because trade schools don't teach electronics which is a 2>4 year stand alone course outside of auto technology.

As you well know a ASET, or BSET is decently paid and doesn't have to deal with automotive weight or dirt and getting a bad back.

AS a BS/MS and MBA I'm differently trained than most mechanics and techicans and keep multiple of each spare modules around at home for personal TS.

[jonseyq45]

The other item to consider is the vast diversety of vehicles that an idependent shop will see. I was in the buisiness both with a dealer and a independent. The dealer can be a little looser with the parts as they have a smaller number of makes and models that they see. However, the independent shop could see 25 to 35 different makes and models in one week. The dealer's techs were prized for thier knowledge of the brand and on the experiance they bring to the table. At the independent the value was placed on knowing the process as you might be working on 2 or 3 different brands at time. Our parts inventory was very diverse just to cover the spread and any expensive part was purchased out of pocket and if it did not improve or repair the rig was put back on the shelf hopping another vehicle just like it would come in with a problem requireing that expensive part. Now at the dealer your odds were good that you have the part and if needed to be restocked, no big deal. You'll probably see another one in a week.

Jonsey....