Race fuel.... Ethanol

[J2fast]

Is there any body that uses e85? Well I'm making better fuel for you with ethanol based fuel. There's already all types of race fuel but not ethanol based an that's what I'm going to do. So what I'm going to do is put it to the test before I start selling and dyno prove my fuel from pump e85 then my e85, then e98, then my race fuel blend of ethanol. I will show results without tuning (but will be tuned based on pump 85, which is not consistent) then show the added tuning differences to then post up all the results............

What do you guys think of this?????

[Carl H]

why are you reinventing the wheel?
plenty of fuel companies sell those blends...

they also have millions of dollars in research to back their claims.

[J2fast]

I haven't seen many companies that sell ethanol based fuel but the ones that do (vp) have like one chose which is e85

[Carl H]

how do you propose to generate the e98?
are you trying to make a pure ethanol blend based fuel?

[J2fast]

I'm going to distill it myself and mix it here and put it into barrels. The based of race fuel mix will be pure ethanol then other chemicals that make power to mix into so you can gains of up to 25% over pump e85

[Bluefire]

pointless... i'd rather run 103 or 109 race gas.

[J2fast]

pointless... i'd rather run 103 or 109 race gas.

And why not run ethanol which is 115 and my race blend which is up to 120?

[Darius]

100% ethanol = 113
E85 = 105
C16 = 117
C23 = 120+

Even if your blend was 117 to match C16, it would have to be 30% less in delivered price due to the difference in efficiency per volume of the fuel. So you would have to be able to blend it, package it, and ship it for $10.20/gallon (assuming C16 is currently at $14.50/gallon in similar form). You'd have to be able to sell a barrel for $560 shipped. And the real question is, how many people are going to tune around your fuel not knowing the duration of its availability? Just throwing these questions out there for discussion.

[J2fast]

100% ethanol = 113
E85 = 105
C16 = 117
C23 = 120+

Even if your blend was 117 to match C16, it would have to be 30% less in delivered price due to the difference in efficiency per volume of the fuel. So you would have to be able to blend it, package it, and ship it for $10.20/gallon (assuming C16 is currently at $14.50/gallon in similar form). You'd have to be able to sell a barrel for $560 shipped. And the real question is, how many people are going to tune around your fuel not knowing the duration of its availability? Just throwing these questions out there for discussion.

well im right about $9.45 a gallon for the race blend and right at $7.10 for e98. the fuel that im blending is more like q16. ethanol is very high oxygenated fuel plus with the power adders its really how which is why it will make power, not all just in the octane. im not saying im trying to be a competitor to other race fuel companies, im just making other options for people who already use e85 as there fuel. this would be they're upgrade just race is to pump gas. and its cheaper....

[Carl H]

how are you distilling this ethanol?
lab grade equipment suited for production?
how are you handling the azeotropic nature of ethanol?
EtOH is not 'highly oxegnated', it only has one oxygen atom per molecule...i suppose compared to octane (which has none) it is 'highly oxegenated'.

wanna see some fomulas here, else it sounds like some homebrew bs that may end up grenading your motor and others

[J2fast]

how are you distilling this ethanol?
lab grade equipment suited for production?
how are you handling the azeotropic nature of ethanol?
EtOH is not 'highly oxegnated', it only has one oxygen atom per molecule...i suppose compared to octane (which has none) it is 'highly oxegenated'.

wanna see some fomulas here, else it sounds like some homebrew bs that may end up grenading your motor and others

I was going to distill it like have done my own but I can pump out about 55gal a day, so I'm buying it from a suppliers terminal that I have just a contract with. But pure ethanol formula is CH3CH2OH. Carbons make power just like oxygen makes power. By highly oxygenated I mean by 15-30% which is a lot for a motor to add in as we'll as the air coming from the turbo.

[Carl H]

i'm quite familiar with the chemical formula for ethanol, i have my BS in chemistry...and its not the elements which makes the power its the bonds breaking that do.
ethanol requires less atmospheric oxygen to complete the reaction.
systems favor a stable low energy state...so the combustion is simply the system moving to a stabler lower energy state.

[J2fast]

Yea that's good to know exact chemistry behind it. My main purpose is to give people that are already on E85 different choices and to be able to make additional power from ethanol based fuel which would make tuning a lot better, as I have tuning e85 for over years and there really is no consistency in the tune based on the weather changing an things like that.

[Carl H]

then you need to upgrade your tuning methods, do you test each sample to find out the true ethanol content?
why do you need that much knock resistance in the first place?

[J2fast]

then you need to upgrade your tuning methods, do you test each sample to find out the true ethanol content?
why do you need that much knock resistance in the first place?

There's not much else you can do about tuning methods when weather changes a lot like it does in texas now on better computer boxes like aem and haltech I can set up things to help but its still not the same, example cold start is a lot diff when it's 80 vs 30. Most of the time when customer brings there to get tuned its already in the tank so no, but I use to do it on my car while back but I'm lazy and I just make changes on the fly. It's not about the resistance it about gaining extra power without changing anything but fuel. If all you have to is add in diff fuel to make 30hp and change nothing,even the tune why do it? That's almost the same as going to race gas depending on the type you get, right?

[Carl H]

if you are 'gaining power' by doing nothing but changing the fuel then something is happening that you're not accounting for.
it may now be a leaner mixture or a richer mixture based on lambda readings from the fuel difference.

power just doesnt appear from changing fuels, putting premium in my lawnmower is not going to make it gain 7 horse power.

[J2fast]

if you are 'gaining power' by doing nothing but changing the fuel then something is happening that you're not accounting for.
it may now be a leaner mixture or a richer mixture based on lambda readings from the fuel difference.

power just doesnt appear from changing fuels, putting premium in my lawnmower is not going to make it gain 7 horse power.

That's not 100% correct there are certain chemicals you can add to you fuel and get power without much tuning, example, torco fuel, propylene oxide to name some, you add you get power.

[Carl H]

please, do show me some examples.

i want raw data, uncorrected and untuned.

[J2fast]

if you add oxygen to fuel you WILL make power, the same reason why 14.7:1 is the perfect AFR because that is how much oxygen it takes to burn :1 of fuel, but when you add more oxygen your hp increase just like when you turn your boost up, more air more power.

[Carl H]

your understanding of fuel chemistry is wrong.
14.7:1 is the ratio to reach equivalence of a COMPLETE combustion reaction in which all reactants are converted to products (H2O, CO2).

this is why it is called stoichiometric afr, it is a balanced reaction.

if the fuel contains more oxygen then the ratio changes and less atmospheric oxygen is required to achieve the same point.

[lexcrob]

WOW all that is completely beyond me but I did read you could mix toluene which u can buy at lowes.... with 93 octane to get some more anti detonation points?

I skimmed around on the internet seems that CATS do not like the stuff, but its a fuel additive used by gas stations to boost octane. (normally in small amounts) Im not chemist friendly nor would I or have I tried the stuff without more information. Which seems to be scarce to say the least on the internet. Must be a reason for it. No idea what that could be tho. You mix it up to 30% with 93 octane end up ?

Ill admit this is probly a bad idea just on the concept that its paint thinner........




figured id throw you guys a side topic so the rest of us get something from the mad scientist battle

[J2fast]

your understanding of fuel chemistry is wrong.
14.7:1 is the ratio to reach equivalence of a COMPLETE combustion reaction in which all reactants are converted to products (H2O, CO2).

this is why it is called stoichiometric afr, it is a balanced reaction.

if the fuel contains more oxygen then the ratio changes and less atmospheric oxygen is required to achieve the same point.

But at which you make hp right?

And the toluene is just raises the octane and will alone make power but with tuning its possible to make more power or safer power at your current level.