R50 Rear Main Seal - How long can I let it go?

[brickbox]

So my 2002 after 2 years and 55,000 miles of excellent service is starting to show signs of her age.
She's lived her entire life in the rust belt and I am the second owner.

I noticed penny sized oil drops on the floor with the car being parked overnight. During my 5K oil change, I crawled underneath and I am 99% positive that it is the RMS. So....on a R50 with the typical amounts of rust one would see, my car will realistically sell for $1,500-2,000.

Local shops quoted me about $1,200 - $1,500 and the dealership quoted me $1,400. From a financial perspective, it makes no sense to spend that much on the car given that it has 194,000 miles on it. Age related things (rubber boots, seals, etc) are all right around the corner. Which means there's the possibility of this thing becoming a money pit.
It's leaking the most around the bottom 2 bolts on the bell housing and then it's "seepy" to bolts that are one above on each side.

OTOH, heart refuses to let me post this thing on Craiglist. Honestly, it's a shame you can't buy a newer QX4. Probably my favorite vehicle out of 8 or so cars I have owned.

So, here's the question. I have switched to Valvoline Syn Blend MaxLife and added 300ml of Liqui Moly oil saver. Prior to the oil change, I ran some of the Blue Devil Rear Main Sealer for about 300 miles.
For those of you over here with a leaky RMS, how long have you managed to limp these things along? I do plan to keep an eye on the oil level every 100 miles.





There's definitely oil coming from that small notch/inspection window


Seepage that I mention above in the post

[nickelghandi]

It depends on how well you monitor it. Mine developed one after having the transmission replaced. They did the RMS along with the transmission, so I had it redone under warranty. It started leaking again a few months after the second one was installed. No warranty on the warrantied part. Just a few small drops here and there. Nothing major. You can switch to a heavier oil like 10W30. Pathfinders and QX4's can run it just fine and it is in the manual as an approved oil. Switching to a higher mileage oil might help as it can sometimes help seal up leaks by swelling rubber seals.

It has been 3 or so years and about 15k miles since I first noticed it. My Pathfinder doesn't get driven much these days as my part of KY hasn't seen real snow in at least 4 years.

If you don't like the drips, you can zip tie, or bungee a rag to the bottom of the bell housing to stop it.

This is very much a check and add oil as needed situation. I keep an extra quart or two in my vehicle. Every 500 miles or so, I check the level and add a little if necessary. I rarely need to add any. The cheapest car is almost always the one you own and don't need to make payments to keep. Would you rather spend $5 or $10 of oil a month, or have a car payment and more expensive insurance?

[brickbox]

That is good to know. I agree with you that there’s no reason to not keep this car as long as possible.
My concern was the type of seal used. Are they the type that keep dripping for a while or the type that catastrophically fail without much warning (like a rope seal)?

I can live with the dripping. Hence $10/month in oil and a sheet of cardboard

[Frank01pathfinder]

I am in the same predicament as you are with my 2001 Pathfinder. I’m at 237k miles and I love this vehicle but it drips a lot of oil. At this point it is the only thing wrong and bothering me about this vehicle.

I’m considering either replacing it myself or shopping around to have it replaced. If I have it fixed it would certainly be a vehicle I keep for a long time and wouldn’t hesitate to drive anywhere.

[brickbox]

While I do most of the work myself, I unfortunately do not have the space (and possibly the skills) for a large job like this. Mostly because the resale value is quite low on these things.

Does your truck have any rust at all? That is currently the biggest deterrent for me from wanting to spend money on the thing. Otherwise I would not hesitate fixing her up.

Honestly, this is the best vehicle I have owned so far bar the gas mileage. But I can overlook that.

How are the R51s? I'm toying with the idea of running her another 10K miles and then buying a 2008-09 lower miles Pathfinder LE.

[nickelghandi]

RMS is not worth fixing yourself unless you have a lift or a ton of time and small hands. If you go and have it done, get a warranty as it often needs done twice.

The R51s almost all have the transmission cooler issue that kills the transmission by flooding it with engine coolant. If you can get one that has had the trans replaced or verified that no coolant has entered the transmission then go for it. More power, better gas mileage, body on frame. Looks like a minivan.

[brickbox]

Yep, totally agree that doing the RMS myself doesn’t make too much sense.

Lol, I do agree that they look a little like minivans. But I can’t find any real alternatives to the R50. Pretty much everyone sells a crossover that I’m not particularly keen on. I thought the trans/coolant mix issue was just 05/06? so getting a 08/09 LE would keep me safe and at the same time get me the creature comforts my QX4 has gotten me used to.

If not, what do people end up buying after their R50s? A 4Runner is out of question because their resale values are stupid high.

[04pathse]

well there is a reason the 4runner has a high resale value, they are good vehicles...

[Mike W.]

well there is a reason the 4runner has a high resale value, they are good vehicles...

I've heard it referred to as the Toyota penalty. I'm not a fan of the marque, but the trucks in particular have crazy high resale values.

[nickelghandi]

The R51's have their own set of problems in addition to the coolant leak. I have seen some listed in my area when checking values for my own R50 that were 2010-2012 and had transmission issues or replacements due to the leaking cooler. I also seem to remember reading about electrical gremlins in the R51's. I wouldn't mind the newest body style except for that CVT being a huge point of failure.

4Runners are amazing SUV's and are basically what the Pathfinder should have continued to be. That or a Sequoia is what will replace my Pathfinder when the time comes unless Nissan does something drastic in the next few years and makes a capable vehicle or finds a way to make their CVT's not cook themselves. I'd get a Land Cruiser but 90k for a Toyota is a bit much...

[brickbox]

I agree that the 4RUNners are amazing vehicles. However, the Toyota penalty here’ in the rust belt is significant and IMO doesn’t make a lot of sense. A 3 year old 4Runner - yes. But I’m looking at the 2009-10 model year range for the time when my QX4 dies and a 4Runner in that vintage makes no financial sense.

Good point on the CVTs being useless. I had a Rogue with the useless CVT before my
QX4. I hated it. That being said, I think the R52 offers no real advantage over competitors and I think other OEMs provide better alternatives.

I was looking for something RWD with a t-case. So yeah, a 4Runner without the 4Runner’s exorbitant resale costs. That’s how I ended up on the R51. But the overarching theme seems like they weren’t as good as our R50s.

I guess I will start looking at Sequioa. Aren’t they more in line with a Armada than a Pathfinder?

In other news, I put 1,300 miles over the weekend and there’s no change on the oil dipstick.

[Mike W.]

I guess I will start looking at Sequioa. Aren’t they more in line with a Armada than a Pathfinder?

In other news, I put 1,300 miles over the weekend and there’s no change on the oil dipstick.

Yeah, Sequoias are pretty big. Definitely bigger than a Pathfinder. And they do not seem to have the Toyota price penalty, they were actually available cheaper than my QX4 when I bought it a couple of years ago. Maybe there's a reason, I dunno. A friend has one, really likes it, but did have to put ~$5K into a replacement transmission last year. It seems they're known for that being a weak point. How weak I don't know.

Leaks often create a big mess, but little consumption. Not on these, but I've seen cars leak oil when sitting, but not while being driven.

[mdmellott]

There are only a few things you can do to stop or reduce the leaking. First, and most helpful, would be to change the oil with high-mileage conventional motor oil. Do not use a full synthetic or synthetic blend because these oils have a much higher flow rate than conventional oils which allows them to flow past compromised seals with ease. Many owners of older vehicles or vehicles that have not had their oil changed soon enough periodically have reported leaking seals after switching to synthetic oils. Those leaks often stop after switching back to conventional oils or after giving their vehicle continuous oil seal conditioning treatment. This brings us to the second most helpful tip. The high mileage motor oils have oil seal conditioners blended into them. These conditioners help to bring back the pliability to hardened seals which allows the seal lip spring to compress as it should around the crankshaft. Overdose the first oil change with a good brand of stop leak seal conditioner. Lucas Engine Oil Stop Leak should work well for this. The best I have ever used is CD2 Heavy Duty Sealer but they were too small of a company to compete so they went under. I bought up all the inventory I could find before it all sold out. If the seal is damaged or worn out there may not be much that can be done to stop the leak but you might slow it down and keep it from getting worse. The last point I have to make is about your 5K mile oil change interval. Your '02 QX4 engine, just like my '02 Pathfinder, was designed with a 3K mile oil change interval requirement. Higher mileage capable oils do not change this design requirement. Although the viscosity of these synthetic oils will hold up longer than conventional oils, the looser engine component tolerances of our engines will still create a great deal of oxidation in the oil which in turn wears out these components, including the seals, faster over time if the oil is not changed more frequently. Even newer model vehicles advertised with an extended oil change interval because of the tighter tolerance and efficient engine design have disclaimers (fine print) that drops the interval period significantly based on multiple driving condition factors. I've got 218K miles on my '02 Pathfinder and it is still leak free.

[brickbox]

I agree with you that synthetic oils tend to aggravate problems with marginal seals. However, most if not all quality high mileage oils (PennZoil, Valvoline, Castrol, Liqui Moly) are all synthetic blends. This is typically due to the amount of additives that they are able to add to a synthetic blend is significantly higher than in regular conventional oil. I know this because I worked for an organization where we conducted testing for OEMs. Based on the resources I was able to use, Liqui Moly has the best additive package for high mileage followed by Valvoline. Valvoline was pretty close and easily available. Hence my decision to use it. Flow rates are typically measured for cold temperature start up and it is desirable new engine or not to have a lower flow rate value. Therefore, the statement of using conventional oil due to poorer flow rate is a little misguided.

The old myth that one needs to change engine oil every 3,000 miles is unfounded. Our QX4 and Pathfinders were designed for 6K miles on schedule 2 and 3K miles on schedule 1. Even our owners manual states that schedule 2 vehicles (mine certainly qualifies because I drive 75-80% freeway with no significant idling at all) is 6,000 miles. The local Nissan and Infiniti dealerships recommend that normal vehicle usage justifies OCI at 6K miles. I had an oil analysis done on my engine oil about 8 months ago and their recommendation was to try 7,500 miles OCI. I'm good with sticking at 5K because I don't really see any point pushing the OCI farther out.

I absolutely do not agree with the point you are making about dropping OCI will help increase seal life. All other factors being equal, its the use of quality oils and filters that increase seal life. There's a MB, Cadillac and a Lexus in the family and I cannot find the claim in any of those owners manual. All 3 of those vehicles run 10K miles service interval (the Cadi at 8K). The Benz in particular has 230,000 miles and will still go triple digits all day long and leaks no oil. Oxidation and oil wear are affected by driving circumstances (significant idling, extreme temps, fjording, etc). They have nothing to do with the engine tolerances. Tighter tolerances drive higher efficiencies and every one is chasing CAFE requirements. Newer vehicles can go longer OCIs because of significant improvements in oil technology. The VQ35 is a relatively modern engine with decent clearances. If you want to talk about loose tolerances, I have the OM617 in my 82' Merc 300D has 283,000 miles and a B230F in my '91 Volvo has 250k miles. Both love the synthetic blend oils. So your recommendation of using conventional oil and the reasons behind it are inaccurate. FWIW, the Volvo is a junkyard rescue, gets driven hard and has a horrible to non existent service history prior to me purchasing it. The first 3 years I owned her, I ran recycled oil in her (mostly....because college tuition) and it still runs great with no leaks.

As for oil additives, most of Lucas' other products rank pretty low in just about every category. If you see my original post, I am already running Liqui Moly oil saver. Pretty good stuff. It's highly rated on most forums and by the few people I know in the lubricants industry. FWIW, the combination of Valvoline Syn Blend Maxlife with the Liqui Moly Oil saver has dropped the amount of oil dripping by 1/2 i.e. penny sized drip every other day.

[mdmellott]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

[nickelghandi]

FWIW, I use high mileage full synthetic in my Pathfinder because I actually leaked more with conventional. This is an exception, not the rule and I do not live by it, but it is what worked in my case. You likely won't do much damage trying out different oils as long as you keep an eye on your oil level and don't try things outside of what the engine was built to use.

I put myself through college by flipping cars on craigslist and have experience driving and working on a bunch of different makes and models. I have used just about every snake oil cure and cheap fix there is. Most of them are garbage, but some of them do work in certain circumstances. I didn't make a ton of money flipping because I was never willing to let a car go that I knew would cause problems for the new owner. The "cure-in-a-can" additives rarely fixed the issues I faced, but sometimes they did. The best thing to do was always flush and refill with proper oil and a new OEM filter.

You should follow your owner's manual for oil change interval regardless of how oil technology changes. Then engine was designed to have 5W30 or 10W30 conventional or synthetic every 3k miles. Add whatever you want to help soften and seal the leaks. It might work. It might not. I have had some in which it totally fixed the issue, and some in which it did nothing but hurt fuel economy and make the engine feel sluggish when cold. You are right about the scheduling, but no matter what, you do have some city driving and some idling. It is best to strike a balance. 3-5k changes might extend the life of your engine, but you are right in saying that they will likely not fix your leak.

My P80 Volvos both run full synthetic and are at 165k and 170k with no leaks. Both are turbocharged and really benefit from the better flow and heat resistance of the synthetic. Volvos are very well designed though and rarely develop oil leaks at the RMS or other major seal locations.

My 2001 F-150 with 235k miles on the Triton 5.4 liter 2 valve runs Motorcraft conventional and doesn't leak a drop. Rust will kill it before the engine dies.

In my experience, oil change interval, driving habits, and particulates in the environment have a larger impact on whether or not you develop issues with oil leaks or components that require oil than the type of oil or additive used.

Sequoias are good vehicles. I know a few people who have them and love them. I have driven a few across different generations, and they handle okay for their size. The newer ones can feel kind of like a bus when driving them, but a few minutes into the drive and you get used to it. They have Toyota reliability and still keep some off-road capability that exceeds the Armadas. They do not do great on gas, but take regular over our Premium loving Pathfinders and get about the same fuel economy. The best thing by far is that they have a lot more space for people, bags, guns, dogs, etc.

[brickbox]

So, the QX4 started to leak coolant from behind the engine. In addition, it was due for front struts, rear sway bars, a ball joint and a tie rod. Not to mention, the RMS.

I decided to sell the QX4 and ended up buying a 2011 R51 Silver Edition. So far so good and it has 100,000 miles less than the QX4 did. From what I researched, Nissan fixed the SMOD by 2010/11. So I should be good.

I just could't get myself to pay the Toyota penalty on the 4Runner and the couple of Sequoias I drove felt a little too big for what I need.

[sroberts]

Has anyone considered fashioning an oil catch to collect drips from the RMS? I've given it some thought but have no experience at metal working. Examples from other vehicles -

[Mike W.]

Has anyone considered fashioning an oil catch to collect drips from the RMS? I've given it some thought but have no experience at metal working. Examples from other vehicles -

I dunno. If it leaks like mine, while parked, fine. If it leaks going down the road at 65, I think the air going by is just going to coat everything. Even if the leak is while parked, my guess is you'd need some type of absorbent to hold it so it doesn't blow out at freeway speed.

[Frank01pathfinder]

Ok so a friend of mine owns a shop and quoted me $1150 to replace the rear main seal and upper oil pan gasket.

As much as I hate to drop so much money on a 2K$ vehicle I think I might just do it. The pathfinder is in great shape and our only SUV and 4wd vehicle. Its an extra vehicle so hoping to keep it around a while after. I will update when/if I do it.

Part of me just says drive it and deal with the oil drops everywhere.

[Mike W.]

Ok so a friend of mine owns a shop and quoted me $1150 to replace the rear main seal and upper oil pan gasket.

As much as I hate to drop so much money on a 2K$ vehicle I think I might just do it. The pathfinder is in great shape and our only SUV and 4wd vehicle. Its an extra vehicle so hoping to keep it around a while after. I will update when/if I do it.

Part of me just says drive it and deal with the oil drops everywhere.

After looking at the procedure in the manual IMO that's cheap. Looks like a ton of work.

[04pathse]

what about putting RTV along the seam, is that a crazy idea?

[AZhitman]

Won't work. Fluid is in the pores of the aluminum, it'll walk right past the RTV.

[PathyPop]

A little late to comment on this, but when I saw those pictures of the oily bottom pan I thought I was looking at my son's '04 LE 4x4. When he bought it, it had an RMS leak and we got the seller to take off some money. This was at 119k miles and now, three years later, he has 160k miles on it and we never fixed the leak. First we used the Blue Devil that swells the seals along with 10w30 and this worked for about 5k miles before it slowly came back. As was suggested, we put a large zip-tie around the small pan and tucked a 5"x5" cotton rag under the weep hole and it is good for about three weeks. We always use dino-high mileage oil and add a 1/2 Bars RMS also to slow the flow. Interestingly, he bought Mobil 1 high mileage this last time because it was on sale and it seems to leak less.

Those pictures of an oil catch can are a good idea too. I used a small plastic container briefly until it cracked, but a metal one should work. Also, use a cotton rag, as microfiber won't absorb and hold the oil (and dispose of the old one properly).

Anyway, the combined oil leak and burn rate is still less than 1 qt per 1k miles which is easier to live with than shelling out almost the $1k we were quoted by a local home mechanic to fix the RMS.

[brickbox]

If your car doesn't have any other issues with the car, I would definitely say hang on to the vehicle. I sold my QX4 with 198k miles on it. AC, heated seats, adaptive cruise and nav all worked! The reason I sold it was in addition to the RMS leak, I had pretty worn rear trailing arm bushings, bad ball joints and it needed a new steering boot.
To top it, the car was due for tires and brakes in 10k miles and the passenger side seat motor stopped working. All fixable, but the biggest problem was the severe rust it had on both the rear wheel wells and around the front windshield.

I ended up with a newer R51 that I'm quite happy with. But the R50 Pathy/QX4 was the perfect vehicle for me. It's a real shame that they stopped making those.

[Frank01pathfinder]

Ok so a friend of mine owns a shop and quoted me $1150 to replace the rear main seal and upper oil pan gasket.

As much as I hate to drop so much money on a 2K$ vehicle I think I might just do it. The pathfinder is in great shape and our only SUV and 4wd vehicle. Its an extra vehicle so hoping to keep it around a while after. I will update when/if I do it.

Part of me just says drive it and deal with the oil drops everywhere.

Ok I finally dropped it off today. I am happy to finally get this thing fixed.

[harold10vz]

This is very much a check and add oil as needed situation. I keep an extra quart or two in my vehicle. Every 500 miles or so, I check the level and add a little if necessary. I rarely need to add any. The cheapest car is almost always the one you own and don't need to make payments to keep. Would you rather spend $5 or $10 of oil a month, or have a car payment and more expensive insurance?

Some cases are pretty hard to prevent and make any kind of forecasts. I would rather spend 10 bucks of oil a month, of course, but talking of insurance - it's also means a lot for any of us. I could find this article recently ( link: https://www.americaninsurance.com/food-truck-insurance ), about conditions and policies for making a food truck insurance papers. And even I'm pretty sure that everything would be okay with me business truck, but I'm still considering about getting some extra insurance clauses.

[Micallen]

So my 2002 after 2 years and 55,000 miles of excellent service is starting to show signs of her age.
She's lived her entire life in the rust belt and I am the second owner.

I noticed penny sized oil drops on the floor with the car being parked overnight. During my 5K oil change, I crawled underneath and I am 99% positive that it is the RMS. So....on a R50 with the typical amounts of rust one would see, my car will realistically sell for $1,500-2,000.

Local shops quoted me about $1,200 - $1,500 and the dealership quoted me $1,400. From a financial perspective, it makes no sense to spend that much on the car given that it has 194,000 miles on it. Age related things (rubber boots, seals, etc) are all right around the corner. Which means there's the possibility of this thing becoming a money pit.
It's leaking the most around the bottom 2 bolts on the bell housing and then it's "seepy" to bolts that are one above on each side.

OTOH, heart refuses to let me post this thing on Craiglist. Honestly, it's a shame you can't buy a newer QX4. Probably my favorite vehicle out of 8 or so cars I have owned.

So, here's the question. I have switched to Valvoline Syn Blend MaxLife and added 300ml of Liqui Moly oil saver. Prior to the oil change, I ran some of the Blue Devil Rear Main Sealer for about 300 miles.
For those of you over here with a leaky RMS, how long have you managed to limp these things along? I do plan to keep an eye on the oil level every 100 miles.

Mine also has been leaking from the RMS for a little while. It hasn't been bad, but it's getting a little worse. I will not pay to get it replaced. Will likely try some Lucas, and start changing my own oil and using the High mileage oil.

[sroberts]

Rear Main Seal - How long can I let it go? The answer for me is until I need to replace the transmission. That's about 215k miles in my Pathfinder.

Why is replacing the RMS alone so expensive? I am paying $650 to swap the transmission and the shop is adding the RMS at cost, which should be $50 or less.

I've been using a catch pan for about 9 months, it works great.