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stebo0728
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Since everyone loves a good quote drop:
James Madison wrote: Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.

If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one....

There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.

As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.

It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow.
Benjamin Franklin wrote: When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Samuel Adams wrote: It does not take a majority to prevail...but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.
Thomas Jefferson wrote: I consider the foundation of the [Federal] Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." [10th Amendment] To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specifically drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.

Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money.

They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare.... [G]iving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

the true theory of our Constitution is surely the wisest and best . . . (for) when all government . . . shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another, and will become as . . . oppressive as the government from which we separated.

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic.

Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.
Adam Smith wrote: It is the highest impertinence and presumption, therefore, in kings and ministers to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, and to restrain their expense.... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in society. Let them look well after their own expense, and they may safely trust private people with theirs.
H. L. Mencken wrote: Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
Grover Cleveland wrote: I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the General Government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit.
Franklin Pierce wrote: I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity. [To approve the measure] would be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded.
John Stuart Mill wrote: The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.
Thomas Paine wrote: We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute.

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
These were all garnished from http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/quotes/govt.html and there are many more great ones there. After reading quotes like this, WHERE ARE THESE GUYS NOW? But they're here, they are us, we are just afraid to act. Quotes like this are always inspiring, but to what end? Shall we continue to be slowly dominated? I dont know the answer, but I do know we've allowed the government to move beyond its bounds in many areas, and we MUST rectify this.


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Half of the guys you quoted have comments that go exactly the other way. Those people are still here. Easy to forget that we only quote the quotable figures. If it feels like there's a shortage, there probably isn't.

And re: being dominated, why is it that the right acts like theirs is the only half of American history that matters? Why do they constantly forget that there were Federalists, too, and that the country has had patriots on both sides of the aisle.

I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American. If you don't share all of the a**-backwards beliefs, somehow, you are a traitor to your nation. FDS.

George Washington would be a Democrat today. Deal with it.
Last edited by IBCoupe on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IBCoupe wrote:Half of the guys you quoted have comments that go exactly the other way. Those people are still here. Easy to forget that we only quote the quotable figures. If it feels like there's a shortage, there probably isn't.

And re: being dominated, why is it that the right acts like theirs is the only half of American history that matters? Why do they constantly forget that there were Federalists, too, and that the country has had patriots on both sides of the aisle.

I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American. If you don't share all of the a**-backwards beliefs, somehow, you are a traitor to your nation. FDS.

^THIS

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FWIW, I mostly agree with you guys.

The problem I have with most politicians positions is the holier than thou attitudes ... on both sides, as far as I am concerned. Neither side has a perfect record for not taking stupid positions to extremes.

I prefer conscience and fairness being the guide as much as practical or possible. And, I am not perfect at it either.

Z

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IBCoupe wrote: And re: being dominated, why is it that the right acts like theirs is the only half of American history that matters? Why do they constantly forget that there were Federalists, too, and that the country has had patriots on both sides of the aisle.
Did the Fereralist seek to usurp the States? Did they seek to provide unenumerated powers to the Federal Government?
IBCoupe wrote: I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American. If you don't share all of the a**-backwards beliefs, somehow, you are a traitor to your nation. FDS.
Not republican, conservative. Just so happens Repubes are the SLIGHTLY more conservative of the 2 major parties currently at play. Conservativism, not any one party.

And have I ever referred to you, or anyone else here, opposed to me or not, as un-American? It seems perhaps some of these quotes hit a thread that maybe you feel needs defending?

The underlying theme behind the quotes I chose were the unenumerated power of public charity that the Federal Government has bestowed upon itself, in the name of a trumped up "public good". And I chose quotes that show that our founding fathers unequivacably believed just that.
IBCouple wrote:George Washington would be a Democrat today. Deal with it.
That may make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but its inaccurate. George Washington would not adhere to either party, not any other party for that matter, and as such would probably not fare well as a politician in our day without drastically changing the way alignments are made. Yes political parties were alive and well in his day, but they were not the overblown fraternities that they are today. No your statement should say whether George Washington would be a conservative or liberal, thats the question, unrelated to parties.

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Re: Federalists
YES to both questions. There couldn't be a functional government without unenumerated powers, then or now.

Re: Unamerican
Every time you say that the Government has gone too far, Stebo, that's exactly what you're saying about the people who support those policies.

Re: George Washington
I'm well aware that he intended to ditch parties. What I'm saying is that a review of his papers shows that he'd be an "independent" that always votes for Democrats. He was center-left. It has nothing to do with making myself feel better, and everything to do with cutting through all the s*** that gets thrown around about what Anerica truly us.

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IBCoupe wrote:Re: Federalists
YES to both questions. There couldn't be a functional government without unenumerated powers, then or now.
Then this is unconstitutional, no unenumerated powers are to be bestowed upon the Federal government, it says so in our Constitution. That you need them is not a reason to bestow them, unless you change our binding document. Any unenumerated powers are to be the jurisdiction of the States alone.
IBCoupe wrote: Re: Unamerican
Every time you say that the Government has gone too far, Stebo, that's exactly what you're saying about the people who support those policies.
If you want to assume guilt by association, I cant control that. I support constitutionality. Change the constitution, and you've properly beaten me, until then, doing anything short of that is inadequate.

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IBCoupe wrote:I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American.
Projection much?

You need a bigass box of Kleenex.

Who said anything about Republican?
IBCoupe wrote:If you don't share all of the a**-backwards beliefs, somehow, you are a traitor to your nation. FDS.
Really? Those are a**-backwards beliefs?

Sounds a little arrogant. Disagree with the quotes if you will, but a**-backwards?
IBCoupe wrote:George Washington would be a Democrat today. Deal with it.
...and Abe Lincoln was a Republican. Point?

Oh, and you saved me the trouble:
IBCoupe wrote:I'm tired of this s***.
IBCoupe wrote:Deal with it.

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AZhitman wrote: Really? Those are a**-backwards beliefs?
Well, to be fair to pookie, I think he meant that he feels I consider his views a**-backwards.

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No, I'm pretty sure, given the context, that he means that he's sick of being viewed as less of a patriot, or somehow viewed as a traitor, because he doesn't share the Right's "a**-backwards" beliefs.

I could be wrong, it's happened before.

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IBCoupe wrote:I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American. If you don't share all of the a**-backwards beliefs, somehow, you are a traitor to your nation. FDS.
I kind of thought the shift was going the other way. That conservatives and constitutionalist were moving away from the GOP and to their own parties.

I was listening to a radio program where a professor of History was bashing Lincoln (a Republican) because he brought about the start to our Federal system and the downfall of the State’s rights. I think they were implying that before Lincoln we had a Republic and after Lincoln we started down the road to Federalism.

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IBCoupe wrote:I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American.
I don't really get worked up about it as much as I did 5-6 years ago when Bush was in office, but I feel you. This is one of the more annoying assertions that the GOP likes to make. It's just politics and propaganda. Most level-headed folks don't buy into that nonsense, thankfully.

When I make the attempt to break down the left vs. right comparison in my mind, it always ends up being centered around the "paper trail." Follow the money to follow those who are guilty.

Who took the trillion+ dollars in taxpayer bailout money? Who controlled the flow? Who voted for it?

Who entrenched us in the middle-eastern quagmire? Who has been reaping profits from it? What politicians have played a hand in this?

Who is behind the military industrial complex's grip on monetary and foreign policy? What corporations are benefiting, and how much?

Just asking. :) In my mind, this whole mess has much less to do with the story we're constantly fed through the media. It has to do with the basic investigation of who's getting f***, and who's doing the f***.

Viewing our current situation through the lens of selective quoting doesn't do us any good. Those men thought for themselves.

Oh yeah, and one more question... Why the hell hasn't Obama gotten our troops out of the middle-eastern theater yet???

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stebo0728 wrote:Then this is unconstitutional, no unenumerated powers are to be bestowed upon the Federal government, it says so in our Constitution. That you need them is not a reason to bestow them, unless you change our binding document. Any unenumerated powers are to be the jurisdiction of the States alone.
I disagree. The enumerated powers themselves are written very vaguely, and Congress has the authority to pass any law that is "necessary and proper" to pursue those powers. You're quibbling with people who wrote the Constitution, Stebo.
stebo0728 wrote:If you want to assume guilt by association, I cant control that. I support constitutionality. Change the constitution, and you've properly beaten me, until then, doing anything short of that is inadequate.
You support your interpretation of Constitutionality, Stebo, but the fact of the matter is about half of the country disagreed with you at the time it was written, so much so that the thing had to be written broadly as to get wide support. This is the crap I'm talking about: you hold an absolutist view of the Constitution, and in doing so, you demonstrate your complete ignorance of it.

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AZhitman wrote:Projection much?

You need a bigass box of Kleenex.

Who said anything about Republican?
:rolleyes:
AZhitman wrote:Really? Those are a**-backwards beliefs?

Sounds a little arrogant. Disagree with the quotes if you will, but a**-backwards?
I'm talking about modern politics.
AZhitman wrote:...and Abe Lincoln was a Republican. Point?
I'm talking about modern politics. Abraham Lincoln was not today's Republican. George Washington wasn't yesteryear's Democrat. Keep up.

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Cold_Zero wrote:
IBCoupe wrote:I'm tired of this s***. I'm tired of the constant implication that if you aren't Republican, you are somehow not an American. If you don't share all of the a**-backwards beliefs, somehow, you are a traitor to your nation. FDS.
I kind of thought the shift was going the other way. That conservatives and constitutionalist were moving away from the GOP and to their own parties.

I was listening to a radio program where a professor of History was bashing Lincoln (a Republican) because he brought about the start to our Federal system and the downfall of the State’s rights. I think they were implying that before Lincoln we had a Republic and after Lincoln we started down the road to Federalism.
Bud, that's my point. Constitutionalism isn't restricted to the right. Liberals have a good grasp on Constitutionalism, too, and have for some time.

We were well down the path of Federalism long before Abraham Lincoln was born. We were a pretty well-established federalist system before the 18th century was out. The problem is part misinformation and part ignorance: there was a strong federalist push long before the Civil War, and there will continue to be one. George Washington favored a stronger federal government. Thomas Jefferson favored stronger states. You go down the list of founding fathers, and you'll find they were very much split on the matter.

If nothing else, it's the insinuation in the OP that anything else is true - that we really weren't of two minds all along - is what got my panties in a bunch. That's historical revisionism at its worst, for no purpose other than to call into question the patriotism of political opponents. It's sickening, and it needs to stop.

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IBCoupe wrote: You support your interpretation of Constitutionality, Stebo, but the fact of the matter is about half of the country disagreed with you at the time it was written, so much so that the thing had to be written broadly as to get wide support. This is the crap I'm talking about: you hold an absolutist view of the Constitution, and in doing so, you demonstrate your complete ignorance of it.
Yes, thank you for putting this into perspective. Deifying a select few of the founding fathers is taking the most superficial (thus, widely supported by the average crowd) approach to US history.

George Washington would also be asking, "Where the hell are my 300+ slaves?!"

George Washington was a great man in many ways. However, I also have to ask myself, "How great is a man that enslaves his fellow man?" If he were around today living out his daily life (sans war or politics) and was caught, he'd be in jail for life.

Does that change anything? Not sure, but that's history.

Side-note: I just read recently that we now have more black men imprisoned, on probation, or on parole than whites had enslaved in 1850.

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I'd ask if that's in proportion to the population, but then again, they weren't people and weren't part of the population back then.

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Upon further investigation, it doesn't even do justice to the partial-insanity of the 19th century existential mindset. There were actually almost 3.5x the amount of slaves compared to the number of black men in prison today. Currently almost 900,000 black men in prison, and during 1850 there were slightly more than 3 million black slaves.

Perspective is a b**** when looking at US history. :/

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IBCoupe wrote:...they weren't people...
Please, dont further this misconception. You have a point about them not being recognized citizens, but lets leave the reparationists diatribe behind please ...

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Dont most of the political parties that were present at the infancy of our country now cease to exist? So it is not as if either party can claim a monopoly on the Constitution or the founding of this country.

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mattblancarte wrote: George Washington was a great man in many ways. However, I also have to ask myself, "How great is a man that enslaves his fellow man?" If he were around today living out his daily life (sans war or politics) and was caught, he'd be in jail for life.
That may be easily said of Al Gore in 200 years when use of petroleum is outlawed, I can read it now "How great is a man who actually raped mother nature of her resources?"

Asinine? Perhaps, no oil is not as important as the liberty of a man, but still, and tieing into another current thread, slavery was a resource at the time. A common practice, and to demonize someone for it seems a bit unfair. To demonize someone who would practice it today sure, but at the time when it was accepted by society, not as fair. Your judging history through a modern lens. If Washington were alive today, he would have studied civil rights history just as you and I did, and would know it to be inhumane, and would certainly not seek to employ it.
mattblancarte wrote: Side-note: I just read recently that we now have more black men imprisoned, on probation, or on parole than whites had enslaved in 1850.
A side not to your side note. I read a while back, that our slavery experiment pales in comparison to the amount slaves owned BY blacks through history. In fact the slaves that we used were only a fraction of the African slave trade. Many third world areas still employ it today, though usually its just slavery of an opposing tribe after a conflict, but still slavery non the less.

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And please, we've turned this thread into an intentional attack on someone else, that was not its intent. As I stated before, it a questioning of a line of thought pervading our current society, and say what you will, but the words of our founders still ring true today.
IBCoupe wrote: I disagree. The enumerated powers themselves are written very vaguely, and Congress has the authority to pass any law that is "necessary and proper" to pursue those powers. You're quibbling with people who wrote the Constitution, Stebo.
Couldnt you say that a line of reasoning such as that negates a need for a difference between enumerated and unenumerated powers? I guess its sort of similar to a pressure relief valve at a dam. A dam designed to hold back water no matter what, but sometimes the pressure is too great as to threaten the integrity of the dam, so if you relieve a bit of pressure by letting a little water through, the dam is saved. Well with than analogy I'd say we've made a habit of opening the valve just a bit too often.

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IBCoupe wrote: If nothing else, it's the insinuation in the OP that anything else is true - that we really weren't of two minds all along - is what got my panties in a bunch. That's historical revisionism at its worst, for no purpose other than to call into question the patriotism of political opponents. It's sickening, and it needs to stop.
You know the beauty of this forum? You can post responses. Try it out, go collect some opposing quotes that state your case of history, and perhaps we can educate each other, dispel some of the ignorance, and write history in its proper light.

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its only worth the effort if there is a willing party on the other side. whats the point if over and over these threads turn into a fox news comment section with all the herpy-derp on display?

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heliochrome85 wrote:its only worth the effort if there is a willing party on the other side. whats the point if over and over these threads turn into a fox news comment section with all the herpy-derp on display?
How is that different than all the quotes from Salon.com, the NY Times and other further left ones that people regurgitate here? I find those one-sided articles equally silly and asinine. :(

You may not agree, of course, but there is merit to all the positions - it is only when there is no recognition of the other side's viewpoint that the discussions go astray.

Yes, the world out there has gotten ugly, and yes, the positions and lines that are being drawn are ever-increasingly more strident ... on every sides.

Z

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szh wrote:
heliochrome85 wrote:its only worth the effort if there is a willing party on the other side. whats the point if over and over these threads turn into a fox news comment section with all the herpy-derp on display?
How is that different than all the quotes from Salon.com, the NY Times and other further left ones that people regurgitate here? I find those one-sided articles equally silly and asinine. :(

You may not agree, of course, but there is merit to all the positions - it is only when there is no recognition of the other side's viewpoint that the discussions go astray.

Yes, the world out there has gotten ugly, and yes, the positions and lines that are being drawn are ever-increasingly more strident ... on every sides.

Z
last i checked, the New York Times is an established newspaper. Im sorry that The Blaze has not won any Pulitzers yet. not that any of that matters to its readers.

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heliochrome85 wrote:last i checked, the New York Times is an established newspaper. Im sorry that The Blaze has not won any Pulitzers yet. not that any of that matters to its readers.
A newspaper should try to report on the news, not pontificate, or try to make the news happen.

To me, the "we only follow Democrat party line" statements and editorialization at the NY Times has made it a less than worthy newspaper than it used to be ... only a few short steps above the The National Enquirer, imho. :rolleyes:

From a television media perspective, I find that the BBC News and Al Jazeerah do a far better and more objective job of reporting than most American stations. Even on US news! :yesnod

Z

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error.
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szh wrote:
heliochrome85 wrote:last i checked, the New York Times is an established newspaper. Im sorry that The Blaze has not won any Pulitzers yet. not that any of that matters to its readers.
A newspaper should try to report on the news, not pontificate, or try to make the news happen.

To me, the "we only follow Democrat party line" statements and editorialization at the NY Times has made it a less than worthy newspaper than it used to be ... only a few short steps above the The National Enquirer, imho. :rolleyes:

From a television media perspective, I find that the BBC News and Al Jazeerah do a far better and more objective job of reporting than most American stations. Even on US news! :yesnod

Z

the NYT is no MSNBC. Lets get that straight. Just because they dont portray things in the deluded way the blaze does, does not mean that it follows the democratic party line. you know why? BECAUSE BY DEFINITION, THERE IS NO DEMOCRATIC PARTY LINE. The Democrats are a big tent party. They include everyone, and there is no official line because not everyone agrees and thus its difficult to find the consensus needed to have a party line.

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IBCoupe wrote:You go down the list of founding fathers, and you'll find they were very much split on the matter.

If nothing else, it's the insinuation in the OP that anything else is true - that we really weren't of two minds all along - is what got my panties in a bunch.
I find those two statements contradictory.


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