Hello again,

I went looking through those sites and others and I couldn't really find what I was looking for. To be a bit more specific i want to talk to a few engineers about working in the field and what they had to do to get there. so ill know how interested i am. i was wondering if you could help, I believe i might have heard some thing about you and engineering. so if you (or any one else) could possibly shed more light on the topic it would be appreciated Thank you - MoNK

That's why all the International organizations have Student [low cost annual dues] memberships, so you can attend National/regional meetings and meet people in the field.

Engineering [degree] requires a mathematical aptitude since today computer simulation/design is the norm [faster] not necessarily easier.

The 6-10 advanced math courses separate the men from the boys........the first 2-3 years of college are pretty much the same for all types of engineering degrees...math, physics, computer science.

http://www.ieee.org/portal/index.jsphtt ... isita.com/

A technical salesman if Good/Great can make more than an engineer: A manager of engineers makes more than someone who does the work.http://www.wageweb.com/eng1.htm

The rule of thumb is a BS/MS degree plus an MBA.

Since China/India/Korea turns out more engineers who work for 1/4 the salary.........having more and more work done overseas is becoming the norm.

Q45tech wrote:
The rule of thumb is a BS/MS degree plus an MBA.

so true

Thank you both once again. prompt replys kick *** =) - MoNK

Q45tech wrote:The rule of thumb is a BS/MS degree plus an MBA.

With over 20+ years as a Technical Recruiter before working w/Sr. Mgt - I can only concur strongly with this exact assessment - the best would be the hard science udergrad work in either Math or Physics, then the MBA -

If you really enjoy the Mgt vs Technical - take ALL the extra English/Communication courseware you can get - Brilliant Techies who CANNOT communicate clearly are, unfortunately, way too common. Differentiate yourself and open your upward mobility by enhancing your communication skills !

msscomm wrote:- the best would be the hard science udergrad work in either Math or Physics, then the MBA - !

Aren't you forgetting Chemistry?Supposedly the hardest undergrad other than EE?

Fred...

palmerwmd wrote:Aren't you forgetting Chemistry?Supposedly the hardest undergrad other than EE?

are you kidding?

from hardest, it goes: EE, ME, AE, CS, all the rest of engineering and math, everything but leisure studies, and then leisure studies.

At least here, the engineering disciplines arent really comparable to any of the liberal arts and sciences majors.

The problem is unless you are brillant, 4 Chinese EE/MBA make less combined than a single US EE/MBA same with India and other third world types in their home country......in the future much mundane design work will be done offshore..............Learn how to sell big ticket complicated systems, not as a team leader but as a brillant standalone with a hidden team backing you up.

palmerwmd wrote:Aren't you forgetting Chemistry?Supposedly the hardest undergrad other than EE?

Fred...

Culled from the hiring preferences (20+ yrs) of the National Labs to DOD Aerospace clients to minor players like GE and RCA Labs (now defunct ) -

I stand by my original assertion as all technical studies are, in the end, an application of mathematics being applied into various end disciplines. I look at Physical Chemistry as the most intellectually rigorous, and that is the actual mathematics of chemistry. Similarly, EE, ME, Architecture (true, art counts loads) CS, Econometrics . . . . These are an applied end use of the underlying mathematics being utilized to state a premise/reaction in a universally quantifiable manner.

The technical hiring authority has learned that a classically trained math/physics background forms a basis as the most readily cross-trainable, most applicable set of skills into ANY field. Hence, our agreement on getting the basics of a hard science degree - I personally see a MS degree as a narrowing of focus that one can use to get applicability for the quickest hiring in the real world. The vast majority of mathematics/physics majors who switched into defined MS programs were better prepared, and had a relatively easy time of the Masters studies, even with the entailed picking up of some additional undergraduate language/concepts in the applied field.

We can all wave our professional flags, but this is hard earned wisdom from Technical hiring folks actually having the budget authority to “make it happen” - You learn to play to the biases/preferences as they are stated/inferred.

IMHO

Q45tech wrote:in the future much mundane design work will be done offshore

"mundane"-key word! ...and that sounds good to me. Hopefully then US engineers will finally be able to catch up with europe and japan and finally innovate something.

At least then Ford can pass the blame to someone else when they spec the head bolt torque wrong on the next-gen windstar.

msscomm wrote:
I look at Physical Chemistry as the most intellectually rigorous, and that is the actual mathematics of chemistry.

IMHO

unfortunately, your humble opinion doesnt elaborate on to how chemistry is especially intellectually rigorous, or how the mathematics applied to it is any more complicated than any engineering discipline.

not to mention, that the only effictive non-dead (still active research) branch is biochem.

if you want to play games, we could throw chemEng into the mix, and that would actually be comparable to the harder engineering disciplines.

p.s. you could write textbooks.

Eswift wrote:unfortunately, your humble opinion doesnt elaborate on to how chemistry is especially intellectually rigorous, or how the mathematics applied to it is any more complicated than any engineering discipline.

The comment on P Chem merely ranks this sub-field of Chemistry as one of the most difficult of its chemical ilk, with the mathematics utilized in its study as merely an additional application of fundamental math - just as any form of Engineering , CS, or Econometrics can be considered as an applied application of mathematics. I still stand by my assertion that the more facility in math one acquires, the easier the intended course of technical study in the end.

Eswift wrote:not to mention, that the only effictive non-dead (still active research) branch is biochem.

Sorry, BioInformatics and ChemInformatics should be considered as some lil’ ole fields w/a bit of possible life left in ‘em - and guess what rears its head again - yup, them dang gnumerikal thingees -

I wouldn’t attempt to rank the “difficulty” of the many technical disciplines (I'll leave that to the alums of the differing technical societies), but you can’t argue they start with the same math - Not here to belabor the point, but my statement was how Math IS the basis of Engineering as well as most fields of technical study for the original questioner - who I’m presuming was asking about academic options. In reference to his academic future, I believe math/physics offers the broadest world of applicability if one chooses to further specialize/apply oneself to differing academic fields.

Eswift wrote:are you kidding?

from hardest, it goes: EE, ME, AE, CS, all the rest of engineering and math, everything but leisure studies, and then leisure studies.

At least here, the engineering disciplines arent really comparable to any of the liberal arts and sciences majors.

Yeah, I had a roomate that was majoring in Elem Ed., during my senior semester of Automotive Eng. She insisted that he schedule was just as hectic as mine because we were both taking like 20 credits. It frustrated me how she had all this free time, and acted like I should too. I don't think she quite understood what is involved with an engineering degree.

I'll agree with you on that order of hardness though. That seems to be exactly the way stuff went at my school. And I assume by AE you mean aerospace (just because it's more common than automotive), but I think that order works for either aero or auto.

If you want an Engineering degree, expect to take a lot of Physics.

If you want a Pysics degree, expect to take lots of Mathematics.

If you want a Mathematics degree, expect to take lots oh Philosophy.

If you want a Philosophy degree, expect to take lots of Theology.

If you want a Theology degree, expect to take Mass Media and Communications.

Maybe they are telling us to just stay home and watch TV.

EZcheese15 wrote: And I assume by AE you mean aerospace (just because it's more common than automotive), but I think that order works for either aero or auto.

i meant aero/astro engineering, as i would consider automotive engineering a subset of mechanical engineering. (simply because you pretty much need a BS in ME first, in order to get into the details of automotive engineering)

msscomm wrote: I still stand by my assertion that the more facility in math one acquires, the easier the intended course of technical study in the end.

clearly i agree with you on the importance of mathematics, but majoring in mathematics in order to continue on to any form of chemistry at the post-graduate level would be excessive.

Eswift wrote: but majoring in mathematics in order to continue on to any form of chemistry at the post-graduate level would be excessive.

I agree w/you unless some rocket scientist is going into Physical Chemistry - I know a fair number from my Plastics days that did dual undergrad with math and chemistry, with an admittedly smaller number taking their PhDs in the math in the end -

I think the P Chem doctorate makes a lot of sense w/a math kicker if you are interested in producing something with a “glorified Gilbert Set” vs getting entranced in mathematica.

I spent 5 year with engineering math and I still personally defer to them egghead Math Wiz types - :rolleyes

i can see where you are coming from,

ive effectively got 4 years of engineering math under my belt, while my CS/math roommate has a sickeningly broader math base.

of course, another friend that is doing CS at a liberal arts college doesnt know basic geometry, calculus, or linear algebra. (private liberal arts colleges really scare me. first, because most teach (force) religion, second, because they claim a "well-rounded" education. Sure, well rounded is great, but when you graduate CS students that fail to have a basic concept of college-level math, there is a serious problem.)

for me, when an egghead math wiz type isnt around, i just substitute the TI-89 or a few lines of matlab.

hello again,

First, i would like to say that its refreshing to be able to partake in a REAL discussion between ACTUAL SMART people +D

Second as far as what studies are hardest I would say logically math should be the bottom of the barrel. Its quite easy, all you have to do is understand the value of numbers, and the rules applied by all the mathematical symbols; then use logic to solve the problem. But in actuality its once again all relative. to me Math Applications / Logic are the easiest things there are and memory capacity (IE Lawyers / Law) is the hardest but that's due to my own strengths a weaknesses. As it is to everyone else, although through the "majority rules" rule what ever is the most common weakness would be the deciding factor is what is hardest. though its all still relative. Any 1 agree? + D

Since i hope fully have your attentions i was wondering what feild i should enter. I was thinking a form of engineering likly mechanical / electrical but im not sure that they will use my best "skills". a good analagy would be to say I dont want to be like a drag car on a autoX course. I was hoping to probe your collective knowlages so i can have a better idea of witch road to take. My best skills are Block Design / Math Applactions / Visual Memory and from the pervious dialog i figured i should ask Thx for any and all help -- MoNK

theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote:Second as far as what studies are hardest I would say logically math should be the bottom of the barrel. Its quite easy, all you have to do is understand the value of numbers, and the rules applied by all the mathematical symbols; then use logic to solve the problem.

what level of mathematics have you completed? Keep in mind, it very well might get harder as it gets more abstract. fill us in on your background, and we can help you more.

if you truly have savant-like mathematics capabilities, EE, ME, TAM, CS, physics..etc will be a breeze.

what do you mean by block design? if it is what i think, you would be great in CS. you'll have to learn to type more accurately for CS, though. i can imagine your code as a debugging nightmare.

I actually dropped out, in 10th grade. 1 major reason / factor was I was wasting my time (so I felt / feel) I may have done homework on a few occasions +D I was never fond of that it was dull and understimulating, add in the ADD / ADHD and it got no attention from me. In Math I was always a ways ahead of the class in 97 (7th grade) I was evaluated for ADHD and had to take tons of IQ tests. "Block Design" was one of the topics covered in the tests and was my biggest strength. My "Math Applications" were at the collage level and "Math Facts" was 10th grade. That's why I reference it. IM pretty sure looking at some thing and being able to understand how to dis- / assemble and understand how it works falls under "Block Design"

What do you mean CS computer Sci?

I completed Algebra / Geometry without any real effort I was helping people in Geo. before I took alg.

"if you truly have savant-like mathematics capabilities, EE, ME, TAM, CS, physics..etc will be a breeze." -- If so what would be more math demanding / intensive?

Thx -- MoNK

yes, CS= computer science.

only a BS in mathematics is more mathematically intensive than for the other degrees i listed.

i did phenomenal in geometry too... but math gets a bit harder im afraid to say. math is, in fact , definitely my weakness, if i have any.

calc I, II, calculus of several variables, differential equations, linear and abstract algebra...

reaslistically, i dont know how well one would do in engineering with ADD. lots of details, and lots of persistance.

Well, people w/ ADD are saposed to trade off 1 thing (attention) for a nother capasity. Tho thx to modern science i get medication to "boost" my attentiveness or "speed" me up.

As far as math I hope it gets hard; but im not worryed about not being able to hack it in Math. What would you do for work if you had a BS in Math

http://www.math-jobs.com/#obis

to me, pure mathematics is unbearable, as most classes teach few real world applications. you are left to find the applications for yourself.

if you had a BS in math...well i wouldnt try to get a job with that degree alone. most likely you would need further specialization.

you could be an actuarial scientist i guess.

if you get a masters or a doctorate in math, your pretty much again doomed to either academia, or a govt job.

Hum, I ran though those listings an IM pretty sure that's not what I want. I was thinking bout becoming a scientist though, but I need more info on that 1 too. If as a scientist you basically theorize than prove / solve your hypotheses, that is cool.

What do you do for work as an engineer (general).

Thx for all you continued help man -- MoNK

"2 a : the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people b : the design and manufacture of complex products " -- sounds fun. i believe i can do this and that it would fit the kind of description im looking for in a career (likly ME - AE). can you tell me what an ME / AE would do through a typical day? (to clarify) thx

theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote:"2 a : the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people b : the design and manufacture of complex products " -- sounds fun. i believe i can do this and that it would fit the kind of description im looking for in a career (likly ME - AE). can you tell me what an ME / AE would do through a typical day? (to clarify) thx

Really a huge variety of things, but some things would be like sitting at a computer, in a CAD program, and designing parts. Maybe doing load testing on parts. Maybe re-engineering a part that does not fail as easily. Designing parts that are cheap to mass produce. Doing tests on products to determine why a part fails every time, and figuring out what exactly is causing a failure.

That's just some random things an ME might do, ofcourse, there is really an endless list.

theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote:I actually dropped out, in 10th grade . . . In Math I was always a ways ahead of the class . . . My "Math Applications" were at the collage level and "Math Facts" was 10th grade . . . I completed Algebra / Geometry without any real effort I was helping people in Geo. before I took alg MoNK

Monk

If you are only a couple of years past high school - you will need to have your math skills quantified - A perfect Math SAT provides a hell of a lot of latitude to demean some of lifes’ basics (math, physics) which, for the rest of the proletariat, are a biatch !

Are you familiar w/conversant to utilize : Graph Theory; Number/Chaos Theory; Numerical Optimization; Numerical Optimal Control of Partial Differential Equations; Numerical Analysis; Numerical Solution of Partial Differential Equations; Spectral Methods for Partial Differential Equations; High Order Finite Difference Methods for Computational Acoustics and Fluid Dynamics; Finite Element Methods; Time Series Analysis/Forecasting ?

If so, or you can easily learn each of these areas by skimming a text and then applying as necessary - then you do qualify as a savant who should be dealt with appropriately - I might suggest the Princeton Institute for Advanced Physics.

The following is a partial listing of one faculties expertise within their Math Department, It begins to show the range where pure math has been applied into more finite applications:Visualization, Computational Fluid Dynamics Computational Fluid Dynamics Spectral Methods, Computation Electromagnetics Finite Element Methods, Optimization Level Set Methods, Combustion and Cfd High-order Finite Difference Methods, Computational AcousticsMathematical Physiology, Protein Structure Determination Human Brain MappingGame Theoretic ModelingComputational Fluid Dynamics, Bio-fluid Dynamics Modeling of Complex Fluids, Bio-fluid DynamicsProtein Structure from Solid-state Nmr Data Dna Topology, Human Brain MappingAcoustic Liner Simulation, Grid Generation Jet Noise, Parabolized Methods Finite Element Methods, Computational Materials Molecular Dynamic Simulation, Computational Materials

This is a decent Math Department - Not a Princeton/MIT or Stanford - If you extrapolate this skill set being further applied into physics, material science, circuit design, Network Topology, financial systems, bioinformatics, cheminformatics or literally dozens of other fields/problems - you should grasp why a basic facility with advanced mathematics allows the user to apply the proper tools to potentially solve life’s little problems - and this skirts the whole physics-math-theology morass..

If the core skills can be utilized/applied in the real world - a savant level soul can pick and chose where to apply themselves diligently, or as a dilettante to any problem that might catch their attention through their lifes’ journeys.

Illustrative of the breadth of math being applied:

1.3.1 Computational MathematicsComputational fluid dynamics and acousticsComputing applications to physical systems Finite element methods Multidomain spectral methods Electromagnetic wave propagation Finite Difference Methods Numerical optimization Computational fluid dynamics and interfacial flows, level set methods, dynamic adaptive mesh algorithms Computational rheology Computing applications to physical and information systems. Physical computation by adaptive nonlinear computational networks with emergent propertiesEmpirical modeling and data analysis.

1.3.2 Fluid dynamicsAcoustics and jet noise Topographical effects in rotating fluids TurbulenceMultiphase flow CombustionKinetic theory and continuum mechanics theory Fluid mechanics of complex fluids 1.3.3 Geophysics and AstrophysicsGalactic dynamics and gravitational lensing Structure of small-scale flows in Earth's core Behavior of solidifying alloysGroundwater flow and transport in karstic aquifers Physical Oceanography

1.3.4 Methods of applied mathematicsAsymptotic analysisPerturbation theoryBifurcation theoryNonlinear dynamics and chaos

1.3.5 Applications to biologyApplications of topology and geometry to biology, chemistry and medical imaging

Hell - this is a very constrained listing, the list IS endless - it is common sense that math is the basis for continuing technical education and a furthering narrowing and concomitant expertise being developed in a specialty - DEVELOP THAT SPECIALIZATION BASED ON YOUR INTERESTS - work w/counselors or talk with pros (such as the techies at NICO or SAE) to help you define some of your lifes’ interests - then work through the basic steps.

Prove yourself - don't guesstimate - then, Best of Luck raging against the machine -