Q45a Conversion notes: Input needed

Post by **ERicincal** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Gentlemen, I need your help. I am finally in the process of doing my suspension for my Q. I have a 1994 "A" and I think its about time. I can drive on it pretty well, but when more people get into the car, it feels like its metal on metal. It still has some nitorgen, when I start the car up, it lifts up an inch or so.

Here is a full size image of the car

(Will the eibach make the car lower than this setup currently? Im not sure if these springs are stock or not, the dealer mentioned something about Stillen, but Im not sure)

so here is what I learned.

PARTS: 1. Eibach springs all around. ($350) or..2. Stock springs if I want a softer ride. ($300)3. Tokico black struts in the front ($200 both)4. Tokico Blue struts in the rears ($200 both)5. New rubber dust boots ( $200 all)

Total parts: $900

Procedure: ( is this correct? )

Starting at the left or right front fender start disconnecting and removing all active parts, go down the rail to the rear remove all active parts go from left to right or right to left rear removing ALL active parts. go from rear to front of car removing all tubing under the front fenders remove all active parts. Disconnect the tubing from under the front fenders that go to the mulitvalve ( that's the cyclinder thing under your radiator with hoses that go to the pwr steeriing pump.. Do not remove these because if you do you'll be removing the loop back system for your pwr steering pump and then will have to get another power steering pump.The new struts with new rubber is a direct bolt into your old strut towers You have removed all Old Active parts (except the multivalve and tubing hoses to your pwr steering pump),, unplugged your active controller and use your existing power steering pump in a loop back.

Do you have to Remove the parts? Mind you. I am not going to be doing this work myself. I want a shop to do it, so I want to make sure they do everything right, but at the same time, I just want to get it the suspension converted. If I dont have to spend the time to remove everything then I wont bother. Can I just have the current accumulators and the springs removed, then replaced with the new springs and struts, unplug the active controller, and use the existing power steering pump in a loop back ( to what? )

Total Labor: About 10 hours?

Thank you all for your help on this. Once I get all of the correct information. I will put it in one document and host it on a website for everyone to see and use a reference. please be as detailed as you can.

Post by **aaacomp** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Eibachs lower front 1" and rear .8" ride is definitely stiffer. Not so bad with the oem on front and blues on rear. You can get all of the parts for what you have down. I don't think a single person can do the job in 10 hours removing 98% of the old active suspension. I think I spent 18-20 hours . If just disconnecting the Active w/o removing you might do it in 10. The procedure I use is to drain and remove the resorivor first, remove all active conponents on drivers side then goto the passenger's side and remove all active conponents, change coils and struts then do rear. It's a messy job...........:thumbup

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

I think you need to find texasoil in our mebers list and email him.

He has rescued many "a" suspension from conversion by recharging nitrogen MUCH cheaper than the dealer (who just replaces the nitrogen filled shock towers.).

Fred...

Post by **ERicincal** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

I thought about going the route of using the recharged Texasoil accumulators, but he told me that there are 9 accumulators, and we would only be changing out 4 of them ($1,000 dollars) my fear was that there would be all sorts of whistles and creaks when the car was driving, or in bumpy situations, the car would just ride a bit harsh without the other 5 accumulators working correctly. ( I can hear my car currently wheezing from lack of nitrogen)

Im looking forward to a nice supple ride with the Tokico shocks rather than litterally WINCING every time I see a road imperfection. I dont care about a "sports car performance" from this car. I want PLUSH... It just seems to me that the converted suspension would be a touble free way to go. Its rather embarrassing when I am driving around in the car, and the car is wheezing . "Girlfriend asked.. did your car just fart? ":pface

1. does anyone have any document with photos or anything that outline this?

2. Can any mechanic do this? ( I mean.. this isnt brain surgery right? - as long as they are a decent mechanic, they can do it? )

3. any other questions I should ask someone before I choose the person to do it?

Post by **greg_atlanta** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

ERicincal wrote:I dont care about a "sports car performance" from this car. I want PLUSH...

If you want plush, restoring the active suspension is the only way to go. Better to spend $1000 now (plus some labor) to restore an otherwise working system that you LIKE than spend $2000-3000 creating something you probably won't be pleased with.

If you still want to convert, try:

http://www.jerrytucker.net

He's in San Diego and actually advertises the conversion on his web page. Good reputation on these forums.

But don't get anything other than stock springs and shocks if you want to convert and want PLUSH.

p.s.- It's not the most complicated job in the world, but you definitely don't want to trust the job to someone who hasn't done it successfully several times before.

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

The togico black's are the way to go if comfort is a priority.

Fred...

PS:BTW, that is one sharp car!

Post by **Sopdadope** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

If comfort is your priority, you're probably better off sticking with the Active suspension. If you're doing the work yourself, this will still be a costly endeavor, not to mention very, very time-consuming. If you're having a shop do it for you and you want to remove all the active parts, it'll be cheaper to stay with the Active system.

Get the four recharged strut accumulators and there's a big increase in ride quality already. Get all of them replaced and it's pretty close to brand-new. I ended up spending about $1000 in parts and spent 4 DAYS at the shop working on the car myself...the mechanic refused to touch it no matter how much I offered him.

But If you really, really wanna go with the standard suspension, Infiniti of Scottsdale already has the kit laid out so you want have to go through the trial-and-error process I did when I was purchasing the rubber parts (many parts didn't work because of wrong part #, some were reusable). That was the big headache, but since TJ at Scottsdale's a great guy, you want have that headache. AAAComp basically covered everything you need to know but one last thing, make SURE your mechanics double check the hoses they're removing because the rear/passenger side can be tricky in that the Active Suspension hoses can be confused with the brake lines. BTW, coximport.com has the best prices on Tokico blue struts and ground shipping is free.

Post by **AZhitman** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Sope - Shox.com says they'll sell me the rears for $130 shipped.

Post by **ERicincal** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Man... you guys have me confused..

So you (Sopdadope) DID the conversion , but you are recommending to do the recharge instead? I am not sure I understand the logic there?

If I did do the recharge, I was told by texasoil to just do the 4 accumulators, and I would havea really nice ride, but there would be a bunch of whistling and in some situations, the car might ride not be great when those other 5 accumulators were necessary.

So let me get this right, the active suspension is a nicer and softer ride than the standard Tokico suspension? or the OEM suspension? even if the 5 accumulators are flat and only the 4 main accumulators are done?

Post by **tex90Q45a** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

I am doing the conversion this weekend..I have researched this convert vs. fix question for 3 months now. Believe me, you should convert for the following reasons:

If you get the min. 4 accumulators re-charged for $1000 there is no guarantee they won't loose their charge after a few years. And you might still have to get the other 3 done as well, another $750 (Of course this assumes you are doing the labor).

Full active fluid can still leak from numerous valves and other locations in the system even if you get all accumulators re-charged. And we all know that stuff is not cheap.

A sensor, valve, or other part of the system could fail also.$$$

I like a good firm but comfortable ride..so I am opting for eibach springs ($300), tokiko blues all the way around ($340), and I am paying Glenn(aaacomp) ~~1000 to help me do it. So for less than the cost of re-charging all accumulators ($1750) NOT INCLUDING LABOR..I get a reliable and tight setup. I am also putting on the stillen adjustable tension rods and poly swaybar/endlink bushings ($400).

I had this same combination on my Z car and it handled and rode great (better in my opinion than when the full active worked reasonably well)...you also shed about 500 lbs in extra weight when you take all the actsus crap off.

My 2cents.....George.

Post by **greg_atlanta** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

ERicincal wrote:So you (Sopdadope) DID the conversion , but you are recommending to do the recharge instead? I am not sure I understand the logic there?

I think he has a '91 with over 200K miles (something like that) and wanted to move to a stiffer, higher performance set-up.

You'll always be pulled in different directions on forums like this since none of us really know your car. What you need to do is find a mechanic who's very familiar with the active system (maybe Jerry Tucker?) and have his shop go over the car and see how good or bad it is.

How many miles on the car? It it's less than 100K, it's probably worthwhile maintaining what's there.

Always a good idea to check retail/trade-in value of your car now and then... gives you a good perspective on spending a lot of money at once.

Post by **ERicincal** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Unfortunately,

Gerry charges 2500 dollars for the conversion and quite frankly, I rather not spend 30 % of a cars value on re-doing its suspension. has anyone had him do their car?

here is the deal on my car.. its in tip top shape.. except for 2 things.. there is a mild vibration at 45 mph which I am hoping the suspension fix will iron out a bit and the deflating suspension. I drive it as a distance car- highway cruising and am not too concerned with canyon carving (thats what the acura is for)

hoses under plenum replaced, gaskets done, and all service done at the dealership.

Also.. is the ride between the stock and Eibachs way different?

Post by **greg_atlanta** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

If it's $2500 parts included, then that's about as good a deal as you'll get.

You may get lower estimates from other shops if you provide all the parts, but once they see the work involved they may use the "that's why we call it an estimate" line and could be a lot more (and they might not do it right).

Recharging 4 accumulators may not be a permanent fix, but it'll certainly improve things for at least a year or two, if not longer.

Yes, the ride is different with aftermarket springs and shocks... though the Tokico blue shocks do soften up after about 10-20K miles and then are similar to OEM shocks when brand new.

The 45 mph vibration may be the transmission mount ($100-125 part) or the driveshaft ($700-800 part). Just replace the transmission mount and see if it improves. About 1 hour of labor.

Post by **ERicincal** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

man.. fast replies here. I love it..

ok. Ill go in to get the transmission mount replaced. ( 1 hour of labor) Any hook ups on parts here? a contact who offers discounts to the members of this forum?

if it doesnt help, then (change, replace, fix, balance?) the drive shaft? how many hours does that take.. and what cuased it to go bad? how does a drive shaft go bad?

mind you . I do not work on my own cars. ( wish I knew how to)

Thanks for the fast replies..

Post by **tex90Q45a** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Greg et al.......My car has 110k ...At 85k all the active struts were replaced under warranty...AND...after a couple of years they are failing...THAT IS MY POINT...why perpetuate and throw money at a design that is flawed..assuming you want to drive the car for more than two years...otherwise it is just a roll of the dice...G.

Post by **Jberger** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

It's not a design flaw, it was designed to lose nitrogen over time. Certainly it was a complicated design, so complex MB is only now begining to attempt it with thier ABC system.

You have to look at the cost per mile. These cars were not designed to last forever, 250K Miles is long darn time. So the 3rd replacement depends on how long you plan on keeping the car. Personally mine is being retired later this year as I hit 200K, that was enough for me.

You are correct about possible long term problems. With a complex system it's certainly something to think about. But the car rides SOOOOO good with the active, I think you're doing yourself a disservice to swap it out. But then again, this car has never been a logical choice for me, I just love the darn thing, so I keep spending too much $$$ on it.

Post by **Sopdadope** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

I didn't really recommend anything. I stated that if he was going to have an independent shop, that had never done the swap attempt it that in the end, it may be more economical to stay with the active. He also said that the main priority was a plush ride, nothing rides as soft as the active Q.

I opted for the tokico struts, standard setup because it's "higher performance." I saved a good 240 lbs. from the conversion and the ride is definitely sportier now.

Post by **fxjackso** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Eric-

If we each paid you the two cents you could finance the repair or conversion. But, I can't resist chiming in.

In my opinion the Q with active suspension is one of the finest cruising cars ever. The ride is plush, but controlled. You are always level regardless of load. You arrive refreshed, and a passenger can read in the back seat without getting the least bit queasy! There is plenty of power for 80-90 mph cruising, with plenty of reserve to get out of a jam. You can get the ride from a Citroen, but not the power, or you can go for a new Benz S500 with ABC- for about as much per month as your entire repair cost.

My "new" standard 90Q is a lot faster and sportier (stock springs, Tokico black/blue, 'A" sway bars with poly bushings) than my dead 91 Q45a. But smooth? No.

I also know that about 50K miles from now I will have to replace all four shocks. The active parts do not wear out. Aside from recharge, which lasted me 40K when my engine seized, in 210K miles I replaced two height sensors at a cost of $50. Never a leak from anywhere.

You have what for a lot of us is the dream Q. Keep it active!

Fred

Post by **texasoil** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

While I do offer recharge services for all 9 system accumulators, I have found most folks do not elect to do all 9. The 4 strut units get the suspension travel back, and the 2 mains get most of the active back. Only on longer stretches of quickly undulating pavament do you 'run out of active oomph', and then you are back to 'standard' performance for a few seconds at most.

Business has dropped off markedly with the economic suituation. For the next 60 days until end of 2002, 9 accumulators for $1500, exchange of course.

The active system is EXTREMELY reliable except for the accumulator issue. 90+% of all the work required on the systems are accumulator related. All hydrauluic Accumulators require recharging or replacement. However the design used by Nissan is a poor choice (in my humble opinion) for this application (high number of cycles, little friction allowed) A bladder type accumulator like Citroen on MBZ would be much more durable. I have even contemplated a conversion kit to MBZ style accumulators for the mains and struts if necessary.

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

My dream car:

A low mile first gen Q45a, ivory pearl quartz with the JWT chip and suspesion in great shape.

A car that's easily the equal of many new 45k cars.

Fred...

Post by **aaacomp** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

The Active Q was listed as one of the best rides in the world (In the early 90's). The point here is after ten years leak or worn you cannot keep the orginal active feel. I've converted three now (for $2200 includes parts) and each Q owner had the conversion done because it is cost prohibitive to replace ALL the equipment to restore a New Active ride. If you only recharge the accumulators (cost $1000 for 4 from Texsoil and that doesn't include labor) you still don't have the REAL Active ride and in a year or less if you have to replace any single component which new is over $1k and that's no labor with the potential of failing again and again..Just my 2 cents.................:thumbup

Post by **maxnix** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Texasoil's offer sort of makes me wish I did have an active. I am sure one will pop-up. What is the labor involved in replacing all nine of the accumulators? That's a topic I have yet to see discussed on any of the boards.

Post by **aaacomp** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Infiniti cost for mulit-valves or accumulators $1100 each. Just because a Q is an Active also means they charge more for general work on it....That's the reson an Infiniti dealership "Totals" the car if it has an Active problem.......................:thumbup

Post by **texasoil** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

swapping the strut accumulators is a little over an hour. The 2 mains another hour, the pump output another hour, the rear valve one 5 min, the front valve one half an hour. Times are if one knows what one is doing. I provide clearly written suggested procedures.

Post by **Q45tech** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

We generally quote all day [which would be around 12 billable hours or $1000 at our customer supplied parts rate $90/hour] because the system can take up to 3 days to reinitialize itself.....there is a lot of cranking and running for 15 minutes then constant replication to purge the air that gets into the system plus of course all new fluid!

We have only done one of texasoils R&R. Compared to over 20 active to standard conversions over the past 7 years. We probably have another 10-15-20 customers who need something done but they just bang along on the frame. After all they are driving a Q.

Being poor and owning an Active is definitely no fun.

Knowing what I know about Q I change lanes/accelerate to avoid getting within 150 feet of one on the expressway unless I know the car well.

Post by **texasoil** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Q45tech is correct in that before I developed the rechargeable accumulator fix, it was not economical to keep a Q45 'active.' The exchange times I mention are real. The extensive flushing and bleeding procedures are needed only if the system is contaminated of left open and drained so it is full of air. It self bleeds over a few days.

With my standard lifetime 50% discount after one year, re-recharging every 3 -4 years is not a big deal.

Post by **aaacomp** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

With the re-charge you only get 90% back of the orginal ride, if all Active conponets are in mint condition. The re-charging would be terriffic but for the fact your dealing with a system (hardware) that has or is completing it's life cycle. If just one mutil-valve or component of the Active system dies the replacement cost with the re-charging exceeds the cost of a complete NEW standard suspension and if you just repair and re-charge you still have LESS than a 100% Active ride with parts that have exceeded their life expectancy. Like being on a wooden boat at sea that has rotten termite infested wood and replacing just one piece of wood, just hope and pray you make it to land soon.....................:thumbup

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

aaacomp wrote:With the re-charge you only get 90% back of the orginal ride, if all Active conponets are in mint condition. The re-charging would be terriffic but for the fact your dealing with a system (hardware) that has or is completing it's life cycle. If just one mutil-valve or component of the Active system dies the replacement cost with the re-charging exceeds the cost of a complete NEW standard suspension and if you just repair and re-charge you still have LESS than a 100% Active ride with parts that have exceeded their life expectancy. Like being on a wooden boat at sea that has rotten termite infested wood and replacing just one piece of wood, just hope and pray you make it to land soon.....................:thumbup

I am sorry Glen(n?) but tht seems a bit pessimistic.I for one look forward to having a first gen"a" someday.

Fred..

Post by **texasoil** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

Let me correct some mis-understanding. There are very few parts in the active system subject to deterioration.

The accumulators of course are by far and away the bug-a-bear. Very high mileage (>175Kmiles) may see a height sensor failure (cost about $60 each). The hydraulic pump is a two pump in one housing design that serves both the active system and power steering. They cost about $450 now. If you do not change the PS fluid every year or two that side of the pump will wear and fail.

Changing the active system fluid (5 liters) every 60K miles or so is the only routine maintenance needed. Fluid costs $15/liter and changing it is a 15 minute job.Other part failures are extremely rare, and there is a very good supply of used parts available at a small fraction of new parts cost, so that is no longer a big fear rationally speaking.

With 'standard' suspension, you WILL be changing struts every 50-60K miles @ $1000 or so a pop.

Post by **aaacomp** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:58 am

I've had as many as 4 Q45's at one time so I want to see them around for a long time. I believe in them and like just about everything about them.As you posted most parts are available in JUNK yards and most Q's with Active now have over 150K on them. Why do Infiniti dealerships total Active cars with leaky accumalators (quoted from Sewell INfiniti) BTY, struts New from Infiniti >$100 each from Tokico $78 and $92 on the net no where close to $1000 and I noticed you forgot to quote a price for labor on an Active (higher than standard even if just for a tune up) .I must have made a mistake but I thought the reason for keeping the Active Suspension was for that Active Ride not just a repaired less than ride. As Texasoil stated by re-charging you can expect at the Best 90% of the Active ride. Questiion is does a New Standard Suspension have better , same or less than a older Active suspension with 90% ride His imput on the regained ride and value placed by him of $200 on the complete system helped me make the descison to change to standard. Those that I have seen or changed had regular service from INfiniti and the last one had a complete accumaltor change and 35k later three were leaking. The one before that (my own) had already been changed out once and had two leakly accumaltors at 163k..............:thumup

Q45a Conversion notes: Input needed

Q45a Conversion notes: Input needed

Active or not ?

A is for Active

accumulator change out labor

active or no?

Active Suspension fix or change

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