Q45 What the cluck did I do? Need help

[Walnuts]

stillCar is 1995 Q45

My wife is holding in her "Your an idiot" speech for another 12 hours but that's all the time I have. Here's the deal. Last night I had an idle, pardon the pun, 15 minutes so I thought "hey were going on vacation on Saturday, why not clean the throttle body with some intake cleaner to smooth out the idle". I've done this several times before and when starting it sometimes stumbles for a few secs but then turns over. Not this time.

Here is what I did. 1) Removed the Rubber air intake from the throttle body disconnecting the MAF wire harness, the two vaccuum lines and the clamp to the hose that runs to the bottom of the rubber air intake hose. 2) Sprayed 1/3 can of carb cleaner into the throttle body (with the car off) while opening and closing the butterfly manually and rubbing what I could with a small rag. 3) Put everything back and before I could turn her over a neighbor came to talk so the car sat for 10 min or so. 4) Attempted to start and she stumbled like usuall but never started. I tried 4-5 more times and no go. The stumbling actually subsided and it sounded less like it was going to turn over. Wife is pissed and says were late for her mom's so we take our other car and I leave the Q alone. 5) Try to start again when I get home that night and it stumbles once but won't turn over. 6) Rest easy knowing that everything will evaporate over night and it will start tomorrow when I get home from work.

I get home today and clean the MAF wire connector, check that everything is connected properly, connnect a second car to the battery since it sounded a little low from my prior attempts, listened for the 5-6 sec fuel pump hum to stop and tried to turn her over. Now I'm not getting much stumbling at all. It just cranks and that's it.

Wife is now really pissed becuse she has been without a car for a day, we are leaving on Saturday for vacation and this car is our only option, and third (most important) the car was running fine before I had to tweak the last bit out of her. She doesn't notice things like a less than perfect idle.

Any ideas? Adam
Modified by Walnuts at 11:52 AM 7/13/2005

[DAEDALUS]

Have you tried mashing the pedal to the floor while cranking? This will shut off the injectors to clear out the cylinders.

zerothread?id=124385

[Walnuts]

Thanks, I'm going to try this now. I verfied that the rail is getting fuel so it must be flooded either with fuel from many attepted starts or from the intake cleaning fluid. Will holding down the pedal before turning the ignition key clear out the intake clearner fluid as well? I'll let you know in a few if it works. Thanks again, Adam

[Walnuts]

Still won't start even when I hold the pedal to the floor before inserting the key. It does stumble a few times but then goes back to cranking. I tried it twice with about 30 secs of cranking then gave it a 5 min rest then tried again with the pedal to the floor. If it is just flooded is there anything that I can do to speed the evap process? Would taking off the intake hose and propping open the butterfly help? Wife will be home soon. Can't wait to see her face when she sees the hood is still up.

[DAEDALUS]

Pull the dipstick and smell the oil. Can you smell gasoline or cleaner?

[Walnuts]

Yes, the dipstick seems to smell like the cleaner. Definetely more than just oil. Another note that might be helpful. Our driveway is fairly steep (20 -25 deg or so) and the car has been facing uphile. I'm wondering if the uphill incline let more cleaner into the intake and if it is possible unable to drain due to the incline. I'm not familiar enough with the plenum to know where the fluid actually goes or sits once it enters the throttle body. I rolled it down from our driveway and left it on a level area on the road just in case this makes a difference. I'll be back at it tomorrow. Thanks again

[Q451990]

Still won't start even when I hold the pedal to the floor before inserting the key.

The key is to push the pedal to the floor before and during starting! This tells the ECU that you think the car is flooded and turns the injectors off until the car actually starts.

Once you get it up and running, an immediate oil change is in order.

Also, be sure to double check your hose connections...

Heath

[Walnuts]

Morning update: Q is now on level ground and it seems to stumble a few more times before resorting to just cranking but still won't turn over. Since my communication last night with DAEDALUS I have been holding down the pedal before attempting to start and continuing to hold down the pedal while turning the key. Does this still sound like a flooded engine? I just can't understand why after almost 36 hours it still won't start. I'll be at it again after work today. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Adam

[Walnuts]

I went home at lunch today to try again to get my Q started. Still won't run. I think my use of the word "stumbling" may have been misleading.

When truning the key I get maybe one quick 1/4 sec or so sound like it want's to start with the RPMs maybe jumping to 100 or less again for less than 1 second. If at any point I release the key the car will in no way run on it's own. I thought maybe my attempted starts blew a fuse so I checked every one visually and then with a volt ohm for continuity. Everything checked out fine (these were the fuses in the driver's compartment and the bank near the battery in the engine compartment.

It really sounds like it's not getting fuel or a spark. I checked yesterday that the rail gets fuel by pulling the hose that connects to the rail and putting it in a coke bottle. As so as I tun the key the pump forces fuel through the hose. How can I verify that it's getting a spark?

Can anyone think of anything else? It seems like it must be something simple but I'm running out of time. We leave for vacation in two days and this car is our only option. When I get home form work today I will record the sound of the engine while I attempt to start it and post it here. I can also take a laptop outside with me and have access to this message board in close to real time if someone has some time to go through things with me. Our closest Infiniti dealer is 45 miles away and I would need to have it towed, and then hope they could look at it before Friday.

Could there be another fuse or relay that I need to check. I would truly apperciate any diagnostic help that anyone has.

Thanks, Adam

[Walnuts]

Thought I'd provide a little incentive. I'll buy a delivered pizza of your choice to anyone that can help my get my Q running.

[DAEDALUS]

There are fusible links under the hood on the passenger side. If you have a timing light or inductive tach you can check current pulses to the coils by clipping it to a wire near the ignitor pack. Fuel flow needs to be at a min pressure, so only by measuring the pressure can you guarantee it's good. Use a stethoscope or noid light to make sure the injectors are firing.Did you do a visual check on all connectors on the heads to make sure they're good?

[Walnuts]

I check the fusible links at lunch and they were fine. I don't have a timing light, inductive tach, or noid light but could buy something on the way home if it would help.

I will test the fuel pressure as soon as I get home.

>>Did you do a visual check on all connectors on the heads to make sure they're good?<<

Are you refering to any electrical connectors that are near the throttle body intake hose? I'll check but don't remember bumping anything. At this point I'm willing to check everything.

I have replaced lots of things on my Q (fuel pump, alternator, water pump, brakes, etc.) but have never looked at the injectors or the coils. How would I go about checking these. I do have a FSM that I can refer to.

Thanks for continuing to follow this thread. 2 hours till Q time.

[elwesso]

IM wondering what it would do if you pressed the gas about half way.... Might as well try it.

Since the car ran fine before, i doubt anything goofy has happened.... I suppose checking those connectors would be OK..

Why dont you try taking out the injector fuse and see what it does.... The idea would be to try and burn off any residual gas.....

[Walnuts]

Thanks for the suggestion Wes, I'll give it a try.

I'm leaving in a bit and will stop by Auto Zone to pick up a noid light. I'll post a recording (avi) of my attempted engine start around 5:15 so you guys can take a listen. From that point on I'll have a laptop next to the car so I can keep checking for suggestions and providing updates.

Amazing that a car that worked fine one minute can experience such trouble for 1/3 of a 99 cent can of carb cleaner. I think I learned my lesson about trying to tweak the last bit of perfection out of the engine. Wait I think I have said that before.

BTW, could the carb cleaner have knocked lose something that is now blocking something else and preventing it from starting?

[Walnuts]

wav of engine attempting to start. Does this sound flooded or something else?

[Walnuts]

Just checked the fule pressure at it between 45-49. I'm trying to work through the diag on page 180 of the EF & EC FSM and it says to remove the camshaft position sensor and then rotate to see if I hear each injector making noise. I can't find the cam shaft position sensor. Can someone explain where it is or point me to a section of the fsm? Thanks

[RobertsnewQ]

EF & EC Page 5 in my 94 manual.

On the driver's side head mounted to the front of the engine.

Don't take it off, just crank the car and listen for clicking at one of the injectors. Use a screwdriver.

[RobertsnewQ]

Still won't start even when I hold the pedal to the floor before inserting the key.

Still sounds like flooding to me. You're holding the pedal to the floor both before turning on the key AND during cranking, right? Don't put it down halfway, and DON'T LET UP until it starts. THat's how the ECU knows you want it to clear the flooding.

[Walnuts]

yes, I have tried a few times holding the pedal down continually and it still won't turn over. I usually only hold the key in the start position for 30-40 seconds max for fear of overheating the starter. Should I really just keep cranking it? What's the longest that I should try before giving it a rest? Is there any way to clear out a flooding situation aside from continually cranking the engine?

Wes, I did try your suggestion of pulling the fuse to the injectors to try to dry things out and it sounded almost exactly the same when I was turning the key as it does when I had the fuse in. The fuse looks fine.

[RobertsnewQ]

Is there any way to clear out a flooding situation aside from continually cranking the engine?

Wes, I did try your suggestion of pulling the fuse to the injectors to try to dry things out and it sounded almost exactly the same when I was turning the key as it does when I had the fuse in. The fuse looks fine.

It should sound the same. There isn't really any other good way.

So did you check for injectors pulsing? Check for spark?

It takes fuel, spark and compression to start an engine. It sounds like you have all three. In that case, you're flooded.

Pull a plug and sniff it. If it smells like gas, for sure you're flooded.

Just keep your foot down and crank until it starts. Pause every 30 seconds or so to let the starter cool, but don't forget to keep your foot all the way down. It will start eventually.

[5zigen]

To check for spark-

Pull out a spark plug and ignition coil, but keep the connector on the ignition coil. With the two still attached to each other the way they were in the cylinder head, put the coil+spark plug on a suitable ground and crank the engine. If you see a spark, there is spark.

[Q-less]

Sounds like my Q did when I removed the actual MAF connector, yours could be loose or the solder has gone bad...maybe. Anyway I think it sounds like a Q without a MAF, which is essentially what you got if there is a poor connection. I would really clean the connector and if your ballsy go ahead and resolder the actual connector....I did it in about half an hour.

zerothread?id=95260

[DAEDALUS]

A bad connection can be worse than no MAF at all. Without a MAF at least the car will start right up. It'll run poorly and throw a code, but it starts OK. Difference is whether the ECU knows it's out.

[Walnuts]

Thunderstorms came through last night and put my investigation on hold.

This morning I listenend to the injectors with a stethascope and can hear the clicking when the engine attepts to start so I assume that these are working correctly

Now the big one: I pulled a plug and left the coil attached and pushed it against the spider to ground it out. daylight, looking very close at the tip, I see no spark when my wife cranks the engine. Shouldn't I be able to see something in the daylight? If so then my problem is no spark. I'm not sure what to check next. What would you do next if the plugs aren't firing?

Could a problem with the MAF connector prevent the plugs from firing?

Attached is a pic of how I attempted to test for a spark. Is this correct?

[elwesso]

Whenever I used to test spark on my small outboard engines (plugs foul all the time on 2 cycle engines), i would always ground it at the threads or where the socket goes on.... not at the tip..

Not sure if that makes any difference, but im having a hard time swallowing that it was running fine, and then it didnt have any spark later...

If you want to call me my number is 765-621-8336. Id be happy to try and help, and to save you from the wrath of the wife!

[Walnuts]

Hey Wes, I tried two addiitional methods as you suggested. First was to ground the side of the plug to the area near the plug hole. Visually with the coild and everything connected it was difficult to see the tip but I didn't see a spark. I then decided to lay the coil and plug where I could really see it clearly and grounded the threads of the plug with a jumper cable with the other end connected to the plug hole area. Still no spark.

I guess one of a few things could be happening:

1) I'm not testing for spark properly. I did follow the fsm for this procedure and everything seems to be tested the way it is supposed to.

2) I bumped some connetor when moving the MAF and throttle body hoe to spray the cleaner.

3) I blew a fuse or relay or something else with my multiple start attempts that I have been unable to find.

What should my next step be? I took the day off to try to straighten this out and currently have a laptop connected to nico. Thanks for the offer to allow me to call you. I may need to take you up on that if I can't make some progress

[maxnix]

Dummy here, but does a plug from the other bank fire? Seem to remember the controller is split betweenthe two banks. May be wrong.

[Walnuts]

I'll pull one and try. The drivers side is a litte more difficult to get to so I pulled the passenger side. I'll give you an update it 15 min or so.

[elwesso]

IM pretty sure that the FSM states that during startup, all the injectors and plugs fire simultaneously, rather than firing in the firing order.....

[RobertsnewQ]

No, only injectors fire simultaneosly. Spark still has to be at the same time.

Spark can be hard to see in the daylight. Can you hear it?

Also, does the plug smell like gas?