AGMMember posted July 21, 2002 09:29 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------It is interesting to note that fuel quality can vary greatly between countries, even with the same oil company.In Australia the fuel qualities are considered to be reasonably high.

I run my Q45 solely on Premium Unleaded.

The brand I use is "BP Ultimate" which has an octane rating of 98.

I am interested to know if widley available Premium Unleaded Pump Gas in the US has a higher or lower Octane rating ie is an octane rating of 98 considered low or high in the US.

The performance drop of my Q is noticable whenever I put standard unleaded in the vehicle, which is only if normal unleaded is the only fuel available at the time.

Chally, I have been using BP ultimate as oppossed to Shell Optimax and Caltex Vortex.

Are you still Shell Optima exclusivley?

Regards

AGM

IP: Logged DAEDALUSMember posted July 21, 2002 10:56 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------AGM, ***uming the same method of measurement (R+M)/2, 98 octane is VERY high. The highest I've seen commercially available is 91 here in California, though 100 octane is available as a racing fuel at a few select stations in my area. I've played with homemade high-octane fuel and I've liked the results. Completely smooth and acceleration seemed quicker. What octane rating does your "standard" fuel have?IP: Logged Q451990Member posted July 21, 2002 10:57 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------98 Octane in the US, at that I've seen, is nearly unheard of! We see 93 Octane at most large-name stations (BP/Ammoco, Texaco, Chevron, 76, Exxon/Mobil, etc.) and then some of the el-cheapo stations still use 92. Regular Unleaded is typically 87, and Plus is typically 89.In higher altitudes you'll find lower octane ratings, since the fuel will burn slower anyway... when I was in Denver I noticed the ratings were usually about two points below normal.

If the Octane ratings mean the same thing worldwide, so that you know we're comparing apples to apples, I'd say you could run a lower grade fuel in your Q in Australia - at least in the winter. What does your owner's manual recommend? I believe mine says 91 or higher, but I don't remember for sure.

Heath

IP: Logged Q45techMember posted July 21, 2002 11:11 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The problem in the US is that we use an average octane measurement:"ODA has taken 3508 samples of gasoline at 1379 locations throughout the state. Samples of regular unleaded, mid-grade, and premium gasoline have been checked for octane levels right at the pump by 14 inspectors using hand held octane meters. Overall, the results show that less than one-tenth of one-percent of all the gasoline sampled in Oregon is clearly not meeting the octane levels posted at the pump. For regular unleaded, only one out 1406 samples (0.1%) have failed to meet the rating. For mid-grade unleaded, only 3 out of 938 samples (0.3%) have failed. However, for premium unleaded, 18 out of 1164 samples (1.5%) are not meeting the posted octane level and have been sent on to the Attorney General. At this point, it appears if there is going to be a problem with octane in Oregon, it is more likely to be with the higher octane gasoline.".....http://www.oda.state.or.us/Inf....html http://atlas2100.agr.state.ga.....html Road octane info :http://www.geocities.com/Times....html

Interesting test done in 1995 [59 pages] engines equipt with KS vs not.They did acceleration tests on many different cars [for example 94 Camary [40-70 WOT] acceleration improved by 1.0 sec for 89 octane, 1.5 secs for 92 octane over base 87 octane.All cars showed improvement with 89 octane and many showed additional improvement with 92 octane......all vehicles only had 10,000-15,000 miles/ http://www.api.org/pasp/rs083.pdf

[This message has been edited by Q45tech (edited July 21, 2002).]

IP: Logged palmerwmdMember posted July 21, 2002 11:44 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Q451990:

If the Octane ratings mean the same thing worldwide, so that you know we're comparing apples to apples, I'd say you could run a lower grade fuel in your Q in Australia - at least in the winter. What does your owner's manual recommend? I believe mine says 91 or higher, but I don't remember for sure.

Heath

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Industry uses different methods in differnt parts of the world to determine Octane readings.

In the US we use an average of RON ( research ocatne number) and MON (motor octane number).This results on somwhat lower numbers listed for US octane ratings.In Australia I presume the same system is used as in Europe where premium is also 98 octane ( or 99 sometime).

RON or MON or different ways of looking at octane ratings in diffrent driving conditions they ra enot just "one higher/lower" than the other and then to be averaged.

So the 98 octane listed in Europe/Australia does not mean what 98 would be here.It would be rated as less in the US calculation system.

Fred...

IP: Logged Q45techMember posted July 21, 2002 11:46 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The problem with road octane is you don't know if they are using [115 + 71= 186/2=93] vs [93+93= 186/2=93 octane]."The spread between the two numbers is know as the fuels sensitivity, and it is very important. Because of the variety of engines it is possible for a petrol manufacturer to come up with a fuel that has a high RON, but a lower than expected MON. Hence although it looks normal on the pump it may perform badly. However on another day the same company may make its fuel out of a different blend to get the same RON but a different MON. This is done for profit reasons and is why you occasionally get bad fuel even though it is legally rated the same" !!!!!!!! http://www.btinternet.com/~mad....html What one wants is the highest percantage of MON Octane rating! http://www.osbornauto.com/octane.htm http://www.prime-mover.org/Eng....html

IP: Logged Q45techMember posted July 21, 2002 12:16 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Short of testing the fuel your octane is subject to what came down the pipeline into the local storage facility a week ago and how that reacted with what remained in the tanks and what if anything the local marketers added to the delivery truck as it left the terminal to fill up a particular service station or two.Something every driver should have:http://www.paclp.com/product/P...s.pdf

": CITGO provides petroleum products that are quality-certified and delivered to branded marketers at terminals. Under a contract with CITGO, marketers (who are independent businessmen) purchase gasoline products from the terminals to resell to their accounts or to market through their company-operated locations. CITGO ensures that all products sold to marketers at the terminals meet rigid specifications. Once the product leaves the terminal, it becomes the marketer's -- and its carrier's -- responsibility to maintain the quality of the products. If you believe your purchased bad gasoline, please see the owner of the location where the purchase was made. " http://www.espa.net/story.htm

Refineries can be cl***ified as topping, hydroskimming or complex. Topping refineries are the least sophisticated and contain only the atmospheric distillation tower and possibly a vacuum distillation tower. The topping refiner's ability to produce finished products depends on the quality of the petroleum being processed. A hydroskimming refinery has reforming and desulfurization process units in addition to basic topping units. This allows the refiner to increase the octane levels of motor gasoline and reduce the sulfur content of diesel fuel. Complex refineries are the most sophisticated refinery type and have additional process units to "crack" the heavy gas oils and distillate oils into lighter, more valuable products.http://www.energy.ca.gov/fuels/oil/refineries.html

[This message has been edited by Q45tech (edited July 21, 2002).]

IP: Logged

Page No.2

Q45techMember posted July 21, 2002 12:28 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/wet/section14.html Interesting read about how the outputs of two different refineries are blended and that the gasoline in BC, Canada is Washington State Speced.Plus the problems of adding Ethanol.

Only GOD knows what each of you is buying from one day to the next.

IP: Logged AZhitmanMember posted July 21, 2002 05:16 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------What is the effect of adding commercially available octane booster (such as 104+) to a tank of 91 pump gas? I'm guessing the impact on overall octane would be negligible.I'm especially concerned given our extremely low altitude and ambient temperatures here in Phoenix... 91 is the highest I've seen.

IP: Logged DAEDALUSMember posted July 21, 2002 06:12 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Octane boosters off the shelf are pretty weak. If you want the good stuff, try this thread: http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.....html As fuel prices/taxes keep rising, the relative cost of homebrew boosters will actually drop, since they aren't considered/taxed as fuel.IP: Logged ChallyMember posted July 21, 2002 06:42 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------AGM,I now use pretty well exclusively BP Ultimate as I found the Shell to make the engine hunt & idle rough. The Q goes the smoothest on BP.

Our fuel was down to 89 RON at the best, for a few years, but is now from 87 to 98 RON, & our Q's are recomended to use 95 RON. Our Lead replacement is 93RON.

The way the US Q's seem to go, I have to imagine that the measurements ARE different, because if I run my Q on Standard UL, the car is woeful, but then again, our Standard is 87 & our Premium is from 94 - 98 RON, depending on where you get it from.

Chally

IP: Logged AZhitmanMember posted July 21, 2002 07:11 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks DAE - I'm bumping the "home brew" octane booster link to the top for all the newbies.http://www.gnttype.org/techare....html Now I need a whole bunch of 16 oz plastic bottles...

IP: Logged Q45techMember posted July 21, 2002 07:29 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------AS I've said bying Premium most of the times only means you are getting something different from regular and in US.95% of stations only have two tanks so the 89 is just an equal [hopefully not less than 1/3] blend of what's from each tank.104+ octane additives have not been shown to work very well since the RFG gasoline already has similar additives and they only help so much. ""Manufacturers may not admit the tests supporting their performance claims were done with 87 [or worse] octane gas. Most boosters, if effective at all, work better with regular gas than with the higher octane, premium to which most people will add them. ""

Toluene/xylene are about the only things that work well and maintain or enhance fuel BTU rating and 10% only improves 92 to 94! [buying it 12 oz for $3 is pretty expensive as you would need 24 bottles or $75 worth to treat 22 gallons of premium vs in bulk!

Do you really want to handle store 55 gallon drums [$150] at home and build a shelter to keep the solar heat from exploding the drums.Your Fire Department Insurance company will be unhappy.

A very effective octane booster, MMT (methyl cyclopentandienyl manganese tricarbonyl), is the base product in both 104+ and 104+Super octane boosters.

BUT" http://www.idavette.net/hib/fuel/

Before you buy these [MMT] please read the following on their effects on your emission system as much litigation by Ethyl Corp is on record and the test show problems after only 50,000 miles! http://www.nrtee-trnee.ca/eng/...e.htm

[This message has been edited by Q45tech (edited July 21, 2002).]

IP: Logged ChallyMember posted July 22, 2002 05:18 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hows this then, a Radio announcer here bought up the same questions. eg. How good is our fuel in Australia etc???AGM, read this!

He interviewed the Boss of VW Australia & our fuel is SO bad that their latest engines CAN'T run on our fuel. Any VW brought to Australia has to have a Major Computer re-programming that it ain't very economical to do.Apparantly, we used to get their cars pretty quickly because Japan had the same fuel as us until last year, when they came up to World Standard EU4. They we on EU2 & according to various tests done, we are EU2 or BELOW!!! He went on to say that we have fuel on par to 3rd World Countries like China, Africa etc, which really puts confidence in our products EH? We are generally about 5-10 years behind in the fuel race, whereas we are the leaders in Tele-communications. (go figure)

The best fuels are in Europe & the US, & now Japan has joined them.

One huge difference is the amount of Sulphar (?) in the fuels. EU4 fuel has about 50ppm & they intend to reduce it to zero soon, whereas Australia has 500ppm & we are thinking about reducing it a bit in 2006, & then maybe going to EU4 Standards in 2009! (wow, aren't we leading the way)

The problem is that the POOR fuel companies are going to have to spend about $1.3Billion to upgrade.

Here goes my first serious post on the new format.

As Chally rightly points out, the high Sulphur content of lower grade fuel is a real problem.

In the combustion chamber, the heat and compression process causes the water component of your fuel to seperate the Hydrogen and Oxygen molecules. In chemistry terms your water (H20) becomes Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen(0).

The oxygen molecule which is now free, atttaches to the Sulphur (SO3) in the fuel.

What happens when SO3 gets an extra oxygen molecule? It becomes SO4, which if my high school chemistry serves me right is SULPHURIC ACID.

Sulphur is found naturally is fosill fuel, however as fuel resources are depleted, oil companies will be forced to use fossil fuels with a higher Sulphur content.

If you wonder how the water gets into your fuel, condensation on the inside of your fuel tank is one of the biggest causes.

Most people are not aware that your engine is actually producing Sulphuric Acid.

Not only is this corrosive, especially to your seals, it breaks down your oil.

A report from Catepillar likened the wear to your engine from Sulphuric Acid to a similar level of wear caused when you first start your engine and the internals are not lined with oil in the first instance, as the oil has drained to your pan.

The point is, put quality premium unleaded in your Q45, as cheap fuel will cost you a lot more than what you are trying to save at the bowser.

Regards

AGM

Chally and Daedulus,

Thanks for the old posts. It good to see the emperor at least has a loincloth.

NEED INPUT!!!!

Man its slow today maybe me need to get some volunteers to copy and paste all the posts

Ill help if its needed

Tory