PowerFC into a '97 KA24DE, with dyno chart! All plug and play!

[bruinbear714]

After months of R&D, prototyping, and testing, we have finally gotten the Apexi' PowerFC working and mildly tuned for the KA engine (97-98).

This was designed to be strictly plug and play. Yes, completely plug and play. No splicing wires, no changing engine parts, no changing MAFs, no changing injectors!

Enough with the spiel, here are the details!

Motor is bone stock, from intake to exhaust, with the exception of a J30 VLSD in place of the open diff. Other than that, there is not a single modification other than the ECU. Engine had 91 octane. Red graph is factory ECU, blue graph is PowerFC tuned ecu.

Peak RWHP and FT/LB gain is 7 and 12, respectively. This may not sound much, but remember that it is a BONE STOCK motor.

Not only that, but the power gains are all across the board. I have more media, including a video of a dyno pull but I am too tired to edit and post it, maybe this weekend I'll have it up. So for now, here are the dyno graphs.

[240DRFT]

are you going to enlighten us about the using the powerfc?

[S13Coupe]

Yeah, what Power FC application did you use? As far as I know they don't make one for the KA, and I never expected them too since Apexi probly doesn't care about it. But if it's pretty simple, I wouldn't mind getting one for my 92.

[240Knightrider]

Details.........????????????????

[miked808]

You certainly have gotten my Attention!

[ddgsxr504]

Man this $hit isn't funny anymore you better start postin some knowledge bisch!!

No seriously......

[Veriest1]

I'm quite interested as well but I'm assuming this is one the DE, right?

[bruinbear714]

Sorry I have been pretty busy as of late... but here's a few answers to some questions people have:

1) The PowerFC is for the red/black top SR20DET, mated to the KA24DE. No modifications is done to the PowerFC or the KA motor, or the factory harness.

2) Adapter includes a one-to-one harness and an adapter board.

3) Fully tuneable engine parameters as the PowerFC can offer with the handheld, including fuel and ignition maps, direct MAF meter change, injector size settings, injector lag time setting, cold crank time, acceleration enrichment, water temp correction, and much more. If you have the Datalogit, then even more detailed parameters can be changed.

4) Currently we only have a few prototypes made for 97-98 S14 KA24DE engine/chassis as we are still working out a few minor details... S14 95-96 and S13 KA24DE is the next target, and lastly the S13 KA24E motor.

5) Getting the PowerFC SR20DET to work with the KA engine is not an easy task - it is not a simple matter of re-pinning the harness, due to mechanical and electrical differences in the engine.

6) Does it work for KA-T setups? Of course, that was the whole reason for designing this! As some of you know, I have a KA-T setup with a piggyback that never ran correctly due to reasons below. Fed up with lack of engine management for the KA24DE, I decided to explore other options and finally came up with this - so here it is.

Why piggybacks will never work as a substitute for a full standalone

Piggybacks control fuel and ignition timing by tapping into the ECU signals. In the case of Nissan applications, they work by altering the MAF signal. While altering the MAF signal may initially seem to work to control injector pulsewidth, it does have a MAJOR drawback. Not only does it controls injector pulsewidth, it also alters the ignition timing.

Piggybacks will work when fine tuning an engine, but I wouldn't recommend it for KA-T setups with stock ecus. The right way to correct for injector size is to have direct access to injector parameter settings, and not by altering the MAF voltage.

As promised, I'll have more media posted by next week, including some videos.

For those of you going to drift day in Fontana this weekend (2/05/06) on Sunday, I'll see you there...

And if you're in the Irvine/Costa Mesa area, you can see for your own eyes

[S13Coupe]

So any idea when I might be able to get one for a S13 KA24DE? I would love to have one, and I don't want to spend the money on a AEM EMS. But I was considering a Greddy Ultimate since that is supposed to have control of timing also, but I'm not sure how it works for that. It's still probly somewhat of a hackjob.

[nismofly]

any timeline for the other engines?

if i go with this id need one for the sohc ka, probably within about a year or so

[bruinbear714]

Here are some images regarding some of the adjustments you can do with the PowerFC. Also, a teaser video. Right click, save as.

Sensor check using their built-in sensor check diagnostic screen

Setting the rev limiter, idle RPM (with and without AC on)

Correcting for stock 270cc injectors... can also set lag time if needed

Viewing and adjusting the ignition timing table

Adjusting a load point in the ignition table... fuel table works same way but is not shown.

[WDRacing]

The new Emanage doesn't control the MAF output signal. It changes the duty cycle at the injector so no load issues with timing and it's cheaper then the PFC. You can also go without a MAF with the EManage. Does the PFC have a MAP system you can use?

WD

[InsanityInc]

Now here's the real question:

What in the world is "A/COFU"?

[bruinbear714]

The new Emanage doesn't control the MAF output signal. It changes the duty cycle at the injector so no load issues with timing and it's cheaper then the PFC. You can also go without a MAF with the EManage. Does the PFC have a MAP system you can use?

WD

I havn't used the new emanage, but the old one was more trouble than it was worth for me... I'm just biased against any type of piggybacks due to my experience with it.

The PFC has a D-jetro version, which is MAP sensor based with sensor.

Theoretically, you can even use the SR ECU... but I havn't verified yet...

[WDRacing]

Wow, now that would be somthing. Use the SR ECU for the timing maps and such. Atleast for initial tuning, then mod as you want to improve AFR's and timing curve...

[ArticDragon192]

Need a 91 KA to test on? I'm in the area BTW, sweet results.
Modified by ArticDragon192 at 9:55 AM 2/7/2006

[Project S13]

Now here's the real question:

What in the world is "A/COFU"?

not sure if you're joking or not...

But that says A/COFU indeed.

as in A/C Offu as in A/C Off.The second one, of course, reads A/C On

[deviousKA]

So, are you going to tell anyone interested how to interface the unit, schematic? Or are you planning to sell your adapter boards? Personal only?

The powerFC is a mediocre platform imho, and overpriced. But hey if you get one used, more power to ya. It would be much better if the communications protocol was open source and there was some decent pc software instead of that mcu based small screen control unit. I wouldnt be surprised if the protocol has been reversed engineered in japan and there is already tuners doing so, something you might want to look into as it would offer a much better tuning environment.

The s13 sr ecus can be used on an s13 ka with a few board modifications, but there is no advantage over the oem ecu. The b13 and p10 sr ecus are directly compatible with s13 ka24de, same ecu different tune.

The oem ecus have plenty of tuning capability and potential, still seems that everyone is intimidated by them though A little bit of timing map work is all you need for a few hp on a stock engine.

[S13Coupe]

^ I have no idea what you just said.

I really wish that I knew more about tuning, and electronics. But whenever I try to learn from reading, I just get lost. I gotta sign up for some classes.

[deviousKA]

Tuning is a good skill to learn, just keep reading up on it and you will get it.

First step would be understanding fuel and timing maps, what they are and how an ecu is using them. Youve got a 2d map of variables, and an X/Y axis. One axis is rpm, and the other is load (in most cases, sometimes it is not direct load but an associated value).

With this, the ecu is able to look up on the 2d table and find the value to use. In the case of timing map this would be a timing advance value, in the case of fuel map it would be a percent of VE (speed-density ecu, map), or like on a nissan maf ecu, it is an A/F target value.

With more advanced ecu systems, you are able to monitor these 2d maps and view the current value that is being accessed. This obviously helps tremendously while tuning.

That is really general but something that you would need to grasp.

If you have a local EFI101 class, sign up!

[bruinbear714]

So, are you going to tell anyone interested how to interface the unit, schematic? Or are you planning to sell your adapter boards? Personal only?

The powerFC is a mediocre platform imho, and overpriced. But hey if you get one used, more power to ya. It would be much better if the communications protocol was open source and there was some decent pc software instead of that mcu based small screen control unit. I wouldnt be surprised if the protocol has been reversed engineered in japan and there is already tuners doing so, something you might want to look into as it would offer a much better tuning environment.

The s13 sr ecus can be used on an s13 ka with a few board modifications, but there is no advantage over the oem ecu. The b13 and p10 sr ecus are directly compatible with s13 ka24de, same ecu different tune.

The oem ecus have plenty of tuning capability and potential, still seems that everyone is intimidated by them though A little bit of timing map work is all you need for a few hp on a stock engine.

The powerfc has a Datalogit in which you can hook up to a PC. It's made by a third-party and costs a few hundred. In fact, that's what we use to toy around with settings as it offers access to engine parameters that the handheld unit leaves out. With the datalogit, complete engine parameter settings can be saved on the PC, modified, and/or uploaded to the unit with a few clicks.

The whole point of getting the pfc to work with the ka is for plug & play, and to provide real-time tuning without having to switch out eproms for minor adjustments....

That, and we're working on the D-jetro version, which is MAP based. No more dealing with MAFs! No Nissan ecus will ever be able to do that.

[deviousKA]

Was that the first place you landed on your "jump to conclusions mat"

JP

Actually, map based conversion is in the works. It uses a seperate embedded mcu which calculates a lookup for voltage. This combined with some one-off ecu settings (custom vq, and iat compensation) provides maf "emulation" (more of a pseudo-speed density hybrid actually). The embedded mcu also handles other functions and I am working on implementing a CAN node as well here sometime. I forget the name but there is a unit available in japan that is similar.

And on the real-time tuning aspect of things, we already have the nissan ecus up and running on sram instead of rom. Couple months time should provide full update functions, all self contained. I dont know if you have heard of a tomei reytec but basically identical to those, which are based on nissan ecu. This is all based on the ka24e ecu currently, features full real time monitoring including maptrace and all those goods. I got bored and needed a better ecu for my winter truck, nothing like maptrace and real time update on a bench seat.

I switched to speed-density a while ago (I dont run anything at this low of level in my personal car), that is what it is called here in the usa where it was invented D-jetro is jdm slang for anyone that doesnt know.

So are you going to share the interface schematic for anyone that may be interested? If the plans are that it will be sold, I think that is a bit petty. If that were the case I might just take it upon myself to buy one and design an interface, sell it, and then open source the design (im an *** like that so be aware, lol). This crap is so old already, and most nissan tuners are so far behind the times its sad.

I wasnt aware of that datalogit btw, sounds good.

Anyways, carry on.

[bruinbear714]

Was that the first place you landed on your "jump to conclusions mat"

JP

Actually, map based conversion is in the works. It uses a seperate embedded mcu which calculates a lookup for voltage. This combined with some one-off ecu settings (custom vq, and iat compensation) provides maf "emulation" (more of a pseudo-speed density hybrid actually). The embedded mcu also handles other functions and I am working on implementing a CAN node as well here sometime. I forget the name but there is a unit available in japan that is similar.

And on the real-time tuning aspect of things, we already have the nissan ecus up and running on sram instead of rom. Couple months time should provide full update functions, all self contained. I dont know if you have heard of a tomei reytec but basically identical to those, which are based on nissan ecu. This is all based on the ka24e ecu currently, features full real time monitoring including maptrace and all those goods. I got bored and needed a better ecu for my winter truck, nothing like maptrace and real time update on a bench seat.

I switched to speed-density a while ago (I dont run anything at this low of level in my personal car), that is what it is called here in the usa where it was invented D-jetro is jdm slang for anyone that doesnt know.

So are you going to share the interface schematic for anyone that may be interested? If the plans are that it will be sold, I think that is a bit petty. If that were the case I might just take it upon myself to buy one and design an interface, sell it, and then open source the design (im an *** like that so be aware, lol). This crap is so old already, and most nissan tuners are so far behind the times its sad.

I wasnt aware of that datalogit btw, sounds good.

Anyways, carry on.

MAF to MAP conversion using a mcu still required a re-tuning of the stock ecu when switching to a "larger MAF", so the only benefit it would offer is just that - conversion from MAF to MAP for the MAF to which the stock ecu is tuned for. I dont see any benefit in running that MAF emulator other than allowing one to run an open atmosphereic BOV, and without having to change MAFs. Ultimately, one still has to modify the eprom to support the larger emulated MAF.

The emanage provides support for MAP to MAF conversion.

As for opening up the details, no, I don't plan on releasing engineering details on the unit for several reasons that I dont' want to get into.

If you want to reverse-engineer the unit, there's nothing I can do to prevent you, but I can make it difficult to do so. Besides, most people don't really want to sit and put together their own unit because it's time consuming - and that applies to any product out there.

In the end, it is the consumers that decide on what works best for them.

[deviousKA]

So then, what is the purpose of this thread? Advertisement only? I dont see anything of real value here and you posted how many other places as well?

Interfacing an ecu would be less than a days worth of work for me bro Not to sound conceited, I mean making a complete new harness for a standalone, what, 2 days max using only free time? It took you guys how long to make this work?

I understand it took you guys some time to do it, but obviously isnt your normal line of expertise. Good luck selling any!

My tone would be different if this wasnt in a KA forum on NICO, we talk about KA tech here, nice powerFC screen pictures

And you might want to read what I posted above a couple more times it might become more clear. You can also check out all of the open-source nissan ecu tuning you would like at eccs.hybridka.com

[deviousKA]

So are you going to share the interface schematic for anyone that may be interested? If the plans are that it will be sold, I think that is a bit petty. If that were the case I might just take it upon myself to buy one and design an interface, sell it, and then open source the design (im an *** like that so be aware, lol). This crap is so old already, and most nissan tuners are so far behind the times its sad.

Not to imply purchasing anything you have designed and reverse-engineering. That would be completely unnecessary, and frankly, far to easy .

I was just making a point, things like this hold the KA community back. You would be much happier by open sourcing so that someone could actually use it before it becomes obsolete. And even at that, maybe one or two people would actually utilize the information.

[bruinbear714]

Not to imply purchasing anything you have designed and reverse-engineering. That would be completely unnecessary, and frankly, far to easy .

Of course it's easy to copy people's work. Coming up with the design and implementing it is a different story.

I was just making a point, things like this hold the KA community back. You would be much happier by open sourcing so that someone could actually use it before it becomes obsolete. And even at that, maybe one or two people would actually utilize the information.

Tell that to JWT.

Sounds to me like this powerfc ka hit a little close to home to you? It's obvious since you have shown nothing but negativity and have been on the offensive side throughout this message thread. Since this is nothing special, it wouldn't have caught your attention, no?

Lastly, if moderators feel that this message is a commercial post, they can lock it at will. I never mentioned anything about availability or pricing in this message.

[deviousKA]

Yeah, I dislike JWT (and other similar ecu tune shops), I have devoted some of my resources, and all of my knowledge of the nissan ecus to open source for that very reason. I would prefer people to be able to tune their own cars properly instead of forking $500, you know they are making over 1000% profit margin right? I have even designed and manufacture my own ka24de/sr daughterboards so that people can get into it cheap as possible. The designs of which are of course, open source.

There isnt any "hitting close to home", do I have an s14? no. Do I care to purchase a powerFC? no. You posted this like 5 times around the various nissan forums, without any useful information to offer to others.

I really dont care as much as you think I do, I would just go about it a different way and am entitled to my opinion is all. This crap has gone on to long, just look how many 240sx's are running safc and emanage, even honda tuners are throwing those things in the trash. 240 owners need all the damn help they can get in this department, having some things open source helps out. Its not like that interface of yours is very complex, dont you have bigger fish to fry?

[Dattebayo]

Maybe Im getting old, but I cant read the dyno charts you posted.

What were the peak HP/RPM and Torque/RPM numbers compared to stock?

[Bigvinnie]

The s13 sr ecus can be used on an s13 ka with a few board modifications, but there is no advantage over the oem ecu. The b13 and p10 sr ecus are directly compatible with s13 ka24de, same ecu different tune.

The oem ecus have plenty of tuning capability and potential, still seems that everyone is intimidated by them though A little bit of timing map work is all you need for a few hp on a stock engine.

Yep, bikirom set the new standard pretty much, if you know how to sauder. Powerfc $1200<Bikirom $300Power FC is outdated and doesn't offer as much functionality, that little green screen gives me a headache, and reading a fat a$$ direction booklet to figure out those functions on the key pad just seems CHEEZY......Power FC ..... Not interested

This thread looks as if it started as an advertisement with old outdated technology, and it just moves further away from Nissan ECCS. Devious has a point, and no I'm not thread jacking...


Modified by Bigvinnie at 4:59 PM 2/8/2006