Potential swap? QR25DE into 240SX

[wannawangan]

Anyone have any info on this swap? This QR engine is found on a FR newer model Frontier so I am assuming that it has some potential to be a swap candidate.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

You'd be wrong haha. The QR is a piece of junk, and for the effort of going through the swap, there are far better options (pretty much every other option is a far better option)

[dickie]

pretty much; qr has serious issues with oil burning and seizing up in its current design.

[ser2102]

yeah but that was the older models.

i think it would be a good swap, probably expensive and a lot of electronics. i used to have one in my 02 spec -v (can you tell by my name?) if you like torque, then its a great motor, pulls really hard from 2K-4K rpms then kinda dies out.

[dickie]

not really worth it. there are people buying newer QR-equipped altimas and sentras with the same problem, i dont think its really been resolved.

[bone_stock_240]

If you like torque, buy a real motor.

Worst

Idea

Ever

[SeVa-S13]

Unless you can get it stupid cheap and can fabricate mounts yourself, I see no reason to replace a KA with a QR...

[KrazyKyle]

They fixed the oil burning problem. The rings either weren't designed correctly or the vendor didn't make them to the correct specs. We handled alot of the repairs at work. The problem affected about 120,000 Altimas and Sentras.

[dickie]

thats weird, i could have sworn i posted in a thread regarding a more recent model of altima with the QR where the buyer had barely had the car long enough to require an oil change and it was experiencing the same problems as the older vehicles supposedly covered under the known issue.

the dealer he was going thru confirmed this. strange...

[bone_stock_240]

The QR's now have an even cooler way of bursting into flames. Their sweet *** air filter. Why someone would choose the QR over the VQ boggles my mind.

[wannawangan]

LOL! I guess my suspicions were justified. I recall reading up on the issues (concerns) about the QR25 as seen on Wikipedia, such as the burning oil issue and ,ultimately, catastrophic failure. I just brought this up to get your opinions on such a swap so that others can get feedback as to whether this is an option to go for or to ignore.

I am thankful for your guy's feedback!

[bone_stock_240]

It seems like a total waste of time to put in another motor that is only marginally better, if that. It would be unique though. I doubt many people would ever copy you.

[wannawangan]

The key word is "potential". I initialy asked whether this would be a potential swap for a 240SX. Obviously, there are known problems with the motor due to obvious engineering oversights and customer/owner feedback. Indeed, it would be a unique swap. I'd have wanted to take advantage of the distributorless system for tunability. But seeing that the cons outweigh the pros, this is an option I, personally, would not want to take.

As far as "copy" me, copy me on what? Perhaps, I missed something. Please clarify.

[bone_stock_240]

I didn't mean copy you directly. I just meant that it would be unique and noone else would do it. Distributor is the best for tuning. Advance as much as possible

/tuning

[2Poor2Buy]

I hope posting to this five year old thread 'bumps' it to current. In 2007, the QR25DE was still problematic. In fact, per Wikipedia, the engine had significant revisions starting in 2005, and more in 2007. Removal of the counterbalance system in 2005, variable valve timing? Other electronic improvements?

First, why on earth would I consider installing a QR25DE into a 240SX?
Four main reasons:
1. It is a lightweight, tiny engine, that uses modern technology to give a lot more hp and torque across a wide powerband, and it can sit back far enough to possibly clear the front suspension making it a FMR layout. This could be used to prepare a roughly 25% weight bias to each corner (possibly not even putting the engine all the way back to achieve it), for low speed racing, with an optional 6-speed manual transmission. SCCA autocross might kick it to an excessive class, but just for autocross participation and for street use it would make for a nimble little daily driver with great drivability and power.
2. It exists in at least some Nissan pickups with RWD even to present, apparently with optional 6-speed manual transmissions. This would allow an engine swap to pass the CA SMOG Referee, and mean there would be plenty of donors out there.
3. Perhaps after getting it to pass, possibly use components of some variants of FWD cars that have some decent power-bands, some up to 200hp peak. Internal and electronic changes could move the powerband up, even a head swap if everything fits.
4. The VG/VQ swaps that I have read all seem incredibly expensive, require trimming the oil pan or cross member, and really pack the rear of the engine compartment. It also puts out so much power it is difficult to make use of it all. There's no point in power that you cannot easily transfer to the road. Burnouts are impressive but not practical. If the truck QR25DE installation can be done on the cheap, and the electronics (at least on the first pass) can all come from a newer truck, then the internals (cam timing, valve timing?) adjusted to higher rpm's without spending a fortune, the QR25DE would exceed the power requirements of a 240SX in low-speed autocross and drifting type use, be adequate for freeway power, and get improved gas mileage at the same time.

Granted, the intake and exhaust would be limited to truck stock or aftermarket, but other internal (hidden) modifications would pass the initial inspection or certainly subsequent inspections. Stock engines could be hammered and thrown away as needed, as the QR is now (and becoming more-so) the cheap used engine to get. The KA24DE is (or will be) less available as time since their production increases. This holds even more true for the KA24E. Likewise their transmissions.

To answer the most obvious question I'll be asked, I don't need the total power of a VG or VQ. I want instantly available acceleration at all rpm's but not total power. Turbo models? JDM models? Not in California.

As of this writing (January, 2013) there are many available dying S13 (mostly 89) 240SX cars available in California. Changing one from a KA24E to a KA24DE through CA smog would be as difficult as changing to another engine. Using an RB or SR based engine is absolutely not a legal option. So a cheap QR25DE swap might be able to extend the lives of old 240SX cars.

Fabricated (or modified truck) mounts would hold a longitudinal QR block to the frame rails, making front cross member clearance a non-issue.

I hope this opens an interesting conversation. Please don't bash my head in if this is a bad idea. Rather, explain why it is a bad idea. QR's break? No problem, consider the long blocks consumable commodities that cost less than a conversion kit for a QR engine. As for a wiring conversion, It seems best to use the entire harness out of the donor, even swap every possible gauge to the new ones as OBDII would be a pain to get around.

[asoomal]

QR's still suck.

[mechanicalmoron]

I hope posting to this five year old thread 'bumps' it to current. In 2007, the QR25DE was still problematic. In fact, per Wikipedia, the engine had significant revisions starting in 2005, and more in 2007. Removal of the counterbalance system in 2005, variable valve timing? Other electronic improvements?

First, why on earth would I consider installing a QR25DE into a 240SX?
Four main reasons:
1. It is a lightweight, tiny engine, that uses modern technology to give a lot more hp and torque across a wide powerband, and it can sit back far enough to possibly clear the front suspension making it a FMR layout. This could be used to prepare a roughly 25% weight bias to each corner (possibly not even putting the engine all the way back to achieve it), for low speed racing, with an optional 6-speed manual transmission. SCCA autocross might kick it to an excessive class, but just for autocross participation and for street use it would make for a nimble little daily driver with great drivability and power.
2. It exists in at least some Nissan pickups with RWD even to present, apparently with optional 6-speed manual transmissions. This would allow an engine swap to pass the CA SMOG Referee, and mean there would be plenty of donors out there.
3. Perhaps after getting it to pass, possibly use components of some variants of FWD cars that have some decent power-bands, some up to 200hp peak. Internal and electronic changes could move the powerband up, even a head swap if everything fits.
4. The VG/VQ swaps that I have read all seem incredibly expensive, require trimming the oil pan or cross member, and really pack the rear of the engine compartment. It also puts out so much power it is difficult to make use of it all. There's no point in power that you cannot easily transfer to the road. Burnouts are impressive but not practical. If the truck QR25DE installation can be done on the cheap, and the electronics (at least on the first pass) can all come from a newer truck, then the internals (cam timing, valve timing?) adjusted to higher rpm's without spending a fortune, the QR25DE would exceed the power requirements of a 240SX in low-speed autocross and drifting type use, be adequate for freeway power, and get improved gas mileage at the same time.

Granted, the intake and exhaust would be limited to truck stock or aftermarket, but other internal (hidden) modifications would pass the initial inspection or certainly subsequent inspections. Stock engines could be hammered and thrown away as needed, as the QR is now (and becoming more-so) the cheap used engine to get. The KA24DE is (or will be) less available as time since their production increases. This holds even more true for the KA24E. Likewise their transmissions.

To answer the most obvious question I'll be asked, I don't need the total power of a VG or VQ. I want instantly available acceleration at all rpm's but not total power. Turbo models? JDM models? Not in California.

As of this writing (January, 2013) there are many available dying S13 (mostly 89) 240SX cars available in California. Changing one from a KA24E to a KA24DE through CA smog would be as difficult as changing to another engine. Using an RB or SR based engine is absolutely not a legal option. So a cheap QR25DE swap might be able to extend the lives of old 240SX cars.

Fabricated (or modified truck) mounts would hold a longitudinal QR block to the frame rails, making front cross member clearance a non-issue.

I hope this opens an interesting conversation. Please don't bash my head in if this is a bad idea. Rather, explain why it is a bad idea. QR's break? No problem, consider the long blocks consumable commodities that cost less than a conversion kit for a QR engine. As for a wiring conversion, It seems best to use the entire harness out of the donor, even swap every possible gauge to the new ones as OBDII would be a pain to get around.

I know nothing about QR's, but you make it sound good, especially for that CARB crap.

Does california not have any alternative registration system, like antique or anything, that allows you to pay an extra fee for the aknowledgement that your car is old, and may require things.... like SR's..... to keep it alive, and that it's worth keeping alive from an enthusiast point of view? I thought a lot of people in california weaseled in everything from swaps to skylines... Take a sharpie and write a CARB certification on your aftermarket stuff?

[fiznowler]

I am going to swap a 99 cavalier motor into my 98 ls1 camaro. It will pass smog and is available cheap,

[OutToWinPAHC]

lol the QR isn't that bad, I had considered this swap before with friends. Newer model QR FWD model, truck intake manifold, direct bolt up to a KA trans

[2Poor2Buy]

CA has smog inspection exemption for 1975 and older, but if they catch you with an engine newer than 1975 (particularly non-US model like SR) you are completely busted. Does it make sense? Not at all. They even require the transmission to match (because of OBDII) unless a wiring harness is factory set up for both. You have to go to the referee even for a transmission swap by itself. QR engine & 6-speed truck transmission, internal mods, even electronic mods they don't recognize or a piggy back computer. It is doable, but is it worth it? Slightly more power (or 1/4 more power at max - which is significant), flatter power band, and lower weight. It seems it or I wouldn't have asked. Might the QR blow to pieces? If one does, grab another off the shelf!

[mechanicalmoron]

Ehh if it's really easy, and really cheap, and really bolts up to a ka transmission, it seems like a much better option than swapping another near-stock KA, if they've fixed it's problems and it's even moderatly more powerful. Does truck motor mean it's another torquey long stroking motor? Perfect. And even so, if it's a ring problem, I assume it just seizes if you let it run dry.... keep it topped off, and I can't imagine it will burn as much oil as many KA's do... Certainly less than mine does.

As for trannys, who's to know or care? I think a speed sensor and cruise/neutral sensor is all most manuals should have on their harness, right?

I mean, as long as it will pass the sniffer, I can't imagine that every inspector person knows every engine, and every car, or would remember and care, if you have a slightly different looking bellhousing or some stupid crap.

You could even print up a set of labels of the sort that go under the hood, and tell them what emissions crap they should be looking for, that say what the new motor has. Or just make it look like it has the right stuff, like leave the pair junk in, and make it look like it goes into the exhaust, as long as you have the right number of cylinders and it almost looks original.

You say referee... so you mean they record who does what to what car? Seriously? That's totally nuts.

And does the smog year advance, or is it stuck at 1975 for ever? And how do people do swaps then, as I know they do in cali.... I assume they don't do a swap back every time an inspection comes due

I'm never going to california.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Man am I glad we talked the OP out of a QR swap way back in 07.

As for the new QRs - they aren't AS bad as they were, but I still wouldn't buy one. I'd rather swap in a juke engine.