Possible Valve Problem - Engine Repair or Upgrade to SR20DET?

[redhorse64]

I have been experiencing a pretty constant stench, like a real bad exhaust leak, whenever my windows or doors are open.Also, when I rev it, I get some white smoke out the back until it simmers down. And, finally, I have an intermittent rattle in the Valve Train area. (The rattle is somewhere between Cylinder 2 & 4, I believe.) I know it is not the timing chain or the guides, because I have been down that road, and removed the (2) timing chain guides, just like the Nissan Technical Service Bulletin says to. (That problem was last year.)The problem that I am seeing now just started since I fixed my last problem about a month ago, which was some trouble with a "miss/rumbly idle" problem. That ended up being a bad injector and I replaced all 4. Now it runs great, but I have this problem.Again, the symptoms are as follows:1) Alot of oil seeping out somewhere down below and accumulating on the bottom of my engine & where I park as well. 2) Real bad burning smell, when the windows are open, like an exhaust leak smell, although I don't think there is an exhaust leak at all.3) White smoke coming out the tail pipe, when I rev the engine.4) An intermittent rattle somewhere in the Valve Train area.(not the Timing Chain!) - This rattle is only after warming up and only occurs during Idle. And does not occur all the time.

So, today I checked the oil and it is kinda low & really dark. I say "really dark", because I just dropped 4 quarts of Mobil 1 EP in there last month and it shouldn't be that dark just yet. This engine only has a little over 150,000 on it, and KA24DE's are well known for going into the 200K's. The only thing that I can figure is that it might be a bad valve. I recently changed the Spark Plugs and none of them looked wet, with oil. If it is anything worse than the valves, than it may be looking like I will be doing my dream "SR20DET Swap/Upgrade" sooner than I thought.

For now, I just put another quart of oil in there. Funny thing is, It still runs great, despite all the symptoms. I am leaning toward the bad valve idea, since the symptoms are Rattling sound emitting from the Valve Train, White Smoke from the exhaust, and Black Oil that is both seeping & burning.

So, there it is! That is the problem that I am experiencing. Not sure if I am ready, financially, to give up on this engine just yet, so, If I decide to just replace valve, should I replace all of the valves at the same time, or should I replace the entire Head Assembly. OR, Am I looking/suspecting in the wrong direction already?

As I say, for now it is still driving good, but another problem is that I have a State Inspection coming up in February, so I gotta get on top of this problem atleast before February.

Can anyone help?

__________________Thanks,RedHorse64.

[LayNLow240]

as for the smoking.. it could be a few things. when exactly does it do it? after it sits and idles for a while? only while accelerating, while deaccelerating,? smoke color/smell? anywho do a compression check. if you get some low numbers add a capfull(as in a cap from the oil bottle, or about a tablespoon) of oil to each cyl(right before you test it) and test it again. if numbers go up youve got rings that are going downhill. also if you get any 2 adjacent numbers that are low before and after oil then youve got a bad headgasket. both problems could be the cause of the smoke. also worn valve stem seals are another cause of smoking, and is not as big of a deal as the others, but is still a pain to replace(parts = 15$ at the most for the seals, its the labor thats hell) but easier than the others.

as for the burning smell... has your car become louder lately? this could be from a leak/crack/missing egr pipe thats on the header. that could be what your smelling.

as for the oil... clean your engine off(just to get to where you can identify leaks) and go for a drive. it could be a valve cover gasket thats mis installed, missing, or damaged. but it could also be from the oil pan gasket. see if you can track the leak and track it down. may take some time.

figure out whats causing your problems before you go throwing money and time(down time, your time, shops time, all are valuable) at your car, as that might not help.good luck.

[veebee]

don't mean to hijack, but LayNLow, do you ever attend any events in nashville?

[redhorse64]

LayNLow240,To answer your questions:It smokes a little at start-up and than, whenever I start off from a stand still. Also, if I rev it while idling.Smoke is WHITE in color & the smell is much like the smell that you get if you put to much oil in during an oil change. However, there is NOT too much oil in there.....in fact there is always not enough whenever I check, because it is leaking.I like the information that you posted here about the compression check. Unfortunately, I initially did not have this post set to email me when someone responded, and have already started to take the engine apart.I had cleaned my underside & topside a little with Engine Degreaser with one of those sprayers at the do-it-yourself car wash. That was last week & while it didn't get all of the buildup, at the bottom (on the frame & engine compartment) it did make it so that I may be able to identify whether it was a leak or not. I did this mainly because I had a previous issue a while back with a squeaky alternator belt & had been spraying stuff in there to quiet it down. So, I needed to do the spray cleaning to make sure that it wasn't just that stuff that I was seeing on the bottom of my oil pan.

More Information & current status:This current problem started after I spent about 3 days straight trying to solve my last problem. My last problem was a Rough Idle and sometimes missing, but no pops. I tested the coil, replaced the Plugs, Distributor Cap, Rotor, Fuel Filter, MAF and cleaned out my K & N Air Filter, before I realized the probelm was that my #2 Injector was not working properly. I realized this when it started missing non-stop. I replaced all (4) injectors and it started running fine. Then I started noticing the problem that I mentioned here.

I had NOT changed the oil since before the Injectors problem (beginning of November) as I use Mobil 1 EP and it is not cheap oil. I have heard it said that you should not use Mobil 1 EP on older cars, but I have been using Mobil 1 since I got this car, in 1999, with 70,000 miles on it is the only oil that keeps the engine & valve train quiet and running smooth.

Now, since I posted my problem here, I tried something. I am suspecting that in a best-case scenario: Maybe with all the running badly (on only 3 Injectors at times) did some damage, in the ways of Carbon buildup, etc. and that maybe that is why my oil was all dark black &/or low.

I am figuring before I get too crazy trying to fix something that may not be broken, I better try some stuff.

So, What I did is as follows:Thursday night I purchased a 16 ounce can of Sea Foam Engine Treatment. First, I removed my brake assy vacuum line & with the engine running I slowly poured about 8 ounces of the Sea Foam Engine Treatment into the hose. I let the engine run for about 2 minutes sucking the hose dry & then put the line back on and let the engine run an additional 30 minutes.Then, I turned off the engine, and dumped the rest (8 ounces) of the can of Sea Foam Engine Treatment into my Oil port, on the valve cover. I drove to work, which is about a 30 minute drive one way. (I work 3rd shift....)

So, my intention was to go home in the morning (another 30 minute drive), drain my oil, fill it up with some cheaper oil, let it run for about 20 minutes, drain it again, change the Oil Filter out for a new Purolator One Oil Filter (currently a FRAM), and fill it up with New Mobil 1 EP, like I usually use.I would then see if the problem still exists. Not sure if this would work, but I can tell you that judging from my drive to work that night, it already seemed better. Time would tell.

Now, yesterday I came home & began to drain the old oil. Really thin & really black, and with some tiny chunks of sludge coming out at times. Ok, I understand this is to be expected, as I had just ran it with the Sea Foam in there. But, then I noticed that there was oil running down the front side of the oil pan at a pretty good rate. Enough that there was a drip to ground at about once every second. I tried to follow it up a little, but everything looks all wet everywhere above & below it. I looked at the following locations for the leak: where the Valve Cover meets the Head, where the Head meets the Block, AND where the Block & Head meet the Timing Chain Cover. However, it doesn't seem to be leaking from any of these places, as they are relatively dry & oil free. The only place I see that it may be leaking from is maybe around the crankshaft pulley. I have the front air intake tube, radiator, electric fan, regular fan, and all the belts and hoses removed to make space. Today, Saturday, I will be removing the Crankcase Pulley and inspecting that area for the leak. That may settle the leaking problem. As for the rattle, it was still there yesterday morning when the car was running. That rattle is only while reversing OR idleing just after warm-up OR when I turn the key off there would be a last second rattle before the engine stopped. So, I am thinking that the RATTLE, the SMELL, the LEAKING OIL.....They may or may not all be related to each other. So, while I have all this stuff taken off the front, I am actuall considering going even further and taking the Valve Cover off the Head and looking at stuff and then taking the Head off of the Block and looking at stuff. Only reason that I don't suspect the Head Gasket or the Piston Rings, is that my performance doesn't seem any different. Still have lots of power and smooth acceleration...... I am, However, concerned with the valves maybe having bad stem seals. If I am going to mess with the valves, would I just be better off replacing the entire Head assy, with a rebuilt one?What do you think about all of this?

Thanks,RedHorse64.

[redhorse64]

Just got home from Work (OT) late today.Daylight is spent.I am starting the seal (got a kit) & maybe removing the Head (got a kit for all those gaskets too) early tomorrow morning, for inspection.

Has anyone ever removed the Head on a 1992 KA24DE DOHC 240SX? Thinking about removing the Head and inspecting the bottom, and maybe pulling out valves to see how they look....What do you all think? Any experience there?

I have been reading through my Chilton's manual, but it looks like it is kinda vague. Specifically in how to remove the Head and still get the CAMS, CAM SPROCKETS, & CHAIN back on the same way you took them off!) Bits and pieces of information in about 3 or 4 different areas. And the pictures aren't much help either. They don't depict the real thing very well.

I"ll check back later.

Thanks,Red.

[180fan]

Behind the crank pulley would explain why you've got a large leak. The front main seal. It's a cheap part anyway from the dealer, 10-15 bucks and it's something that we all change anyway with either 1. a leak or 2. with a chain job or 3. out of paranoia.

My recommendation is to do this. First isolate the leak. I'm almost 100% it's at least at the front crank seal. I can upload the exploded views of the head gasket job and so on but first thing's first, do the front crank seal.

[redhorse64]

Yes,I am going to do the Front Crank Seak now & the Oil Pan, while I am at it.

Then, I will be checking back here for those pictures of how to remove the Head, so yes, please do post them or provide a link. Like I say, on the Head Removal Job my biggest fear is that I won't get the CAMS, CAM SPROCKETS, & CHAIN back on the same way I took them off, and I know that it is critical to put that back on correctly aligned.

Ok,Well, I better get started.Thanks,Red.

[ehidalgo01]

I was just googling "nissan with oil leak" and i found your post. Thanks for letting me know that i am not alone on this. I just drove from Miami to Orlando and needless to say all of the symptoms that you mentioned (smoke, rattling and oil leaking) I experienced them. The rattling could be the cable that is attatched to the the fan that goes between the radiator and the fan cover. The fan may be hitting that cable and you may not notice it because you have to look in between the blades. As for the smoke i'm going to go ahead and predict that you probably don't have the plastic cover under the engine. If this is so you should take a look at the undercarriage to see any signs of oil. I bet you won't get any smoke while the car is cold because the exhaust is not yet hot enough to burn any oil. Let me know which seal is the one that you ended up happening because my nissan is dripping a lot of oil.

[redhorse64]

Hi ehidalgo01,What's up?Yeah, I figured out that my rattling sound is due to a cable harness, wedged between the Firewall and the back of the valve cover. Also, the fact that one of Motor Mounts is totally shot (Have some HardRace JDM Mounts on order). So, no rattle to worry about after I change out the motor mount hopefully. And if not, well, then I'll just turn the music louder.

Anyway, Found oil leaking from the Crankshaft Oil seal - Replaced.Found water leaking from the Water Pump - Replaced.Found what looks like a long-time leakage of Power Steering fulid - wiped as much as I could up and tightened rubber hoses up on all ends.Been wiping up oil / oil buildup from all over, in the under areas - Hopefully, I will be able to keep this more under control. Have trouble getting it all, may have to go to the car wash, with a can of Gunk Engine Brite & some kinda bristle brush to get it all, but that will be later.Replaced the oil pan gasket and put it back on the car.

As for your prediction, no oil was really in the exhaust area, but I have a New O2 SENSOR to install, just in case my Bad Injector issue fried it or something.

Plan on changing the PCV Valve this morning and then I will decide what is next....

When I started this project I was intent on taking the head off & having a look at the Valves and then replacing the Head Gasket, the Intake Gasket, and the Exhaust Header Gasket.

Not so sure I wanna do that anymore, as I don't even seem to be able to get the the Fuel Rail off in order to remove the Air Intake. I removed the gas pressure by removing the rubber lines and removed all of the bolts that I see on the passenger side area of it, but now it looks as if there is something holding it tight from the rear of the Head.....

Part of me says: I should put it back together as much as I need to in order to perform a compression test......Whatever that'll take, as I have never tried it....I purchased a Compression Test Kit last night.

The other part says: I am half way there, maybe I should press on and remove the Head, but so far, I don't see how to get the Intake Off & not sure that I should.....

If I can't find further detailed instructions on how to do it, then I may just install the New PCV, New O2 Sensor, New Motor Mounts, put enough back together to do a compression test, and figure out how to do this compression test.

If the compression test shows good results, I will put everything back together, dump 4 quarts of cheapy oil in there & a cheapy oil filter, and run it for a couple hours to get the rest of the Sea Foam out. Then put my Mobil 1 EP & New Oil Filter on and see what happens.

If the compression test fails, then I will definitely be looking for those "detailed instructions" of a Head Gasket Job.

Anyone know the easiest way to get the Fuel Rail & Intake off?

I still wanna look under the intake for a bunch of stuff that has dropped in there over the years, and specifically, a radiator bracket that I dropped in there yesterday.

Also, Any ideas for the compression tests are more than welcome...

By the way, Oil Pan job was fun, NOT!

Thanks everyone,Red.

[redhorse64]

Ok,Replaced the PCV Valve, that was fun, NOT. Well, It was better than the Oil Pan. Replace the O2 Sensor also.

I finally got the Fuel Rail off. It was tricky, but there was a nut on a bolt that sticks out of the cylinder head, on the left hand side underneath. Once I was able to get to it, I got the Fuel Rail off. Ripped a rubber tube that connects it down in behind the back of the cylinder head. I will have to figure out how to get a new tube down in there later....

Took all of the bolts off of the top half of the Intake Manifold, except the ones that are on the bottom supports of the Intake ports. Ok, those look a little hard to get to......Especially the one all the way on the left side. I think I will hold off on the Intake for now & see if anyone knows some easier way......

It almost looks like all this stuff is designed to be done with the engine outside the car....

Later,Red.:

[redhorse64]

180FAN,You still out there somewhere,I would appreciate if you could post that Head Gasket Job Guide with pictures that you mentioned previously, for fututre reference. Unfortunately, It looked like there was alot of little stuff in the back of the Cylinder Head that couln't be reached and overall looks like you pretty much have to remove the motor to remove the Cylinder Head. And I don't have the time, equipment, or a place to pull the motor right now.

So, wanting to finish this before the holidays set in, I returned the $108 Head Gasket Kit & just purchased a new Valve Cover Gasket individually. I started putting stuff back together, and I figure between the Sea Foam treatment & all the things that I have changed and all the things below, maybe my problems will be solved.However, If I still have problems after this, I will still be looking for a Head Gasket Job Guide probably.

Anyway, didn't get much time to work on the car, but here is what happened today:Re-installed all Intake Bolts that I removed previously.Replaced the bad Vacuum Line that connects the Fuel Rail to behind the Cylinder Head.Re-installed Fuel Rail.Replaced the Crankcase Air Line that goes from the Air Intake Tube to the Valve Cover.Found a huge crack in the Brake Vacuum Line, close to where it comes off the Intake Manifold & replaced that.Found that there is a missing bolt, which holds Exhaust Down-Pipe to the transmission Housing & replace it.Cleaned up all the Pulleys and cleaned up more around all areas of the Motor.Still waiting for New Motor Mounts, Radiator Hoses, and Stabilizer Bar End Links that I ordered. Should have everything by Friday morning, which is fine, since I have OT at work tomorrow Thursday).

Now,Maybe some of you can give some insight on the Upper Timing Chain Cover & Valve Cover re-installation.

1) I know that the Upper Timing Chain Cover gets a RTV Seal made, but should there be a bead of RTV on the bottom mating surface, where the Head Gasket is on top of the bottom Timing Chain Cover? Or just on the front surface of the Cylinder Head?

2) I have searched around the internet & There seems to be different schools of thought on RTV & the Valve Cover/Valve Cover Gasket. Some people show, just applying RTV to the Half-Holes in the front & back of the top of the Cylinder Head. Other people show that plus putting a bead of RTV all the way around the edges of the Cylinder Head. And I have never seen NOR applied it to the center Spark Plug holes. I have brand new Valve Cover Gasket, which fits this Valve Cover perfectly nice & tight.I know that applying RTV to the Half-Holes in the front & back of the top of the Cylinder Head is necessary.However, is the bead of RTV all the way around the edges of the Cylinder Head really necessary?

Thanks,RedHorse.

[180fan]

Yes, I'm still around. Just finished finals with a 12hr work shift the day before.

Email me at [email protected]. I forgot the picture support on NICO has been removed for the time being. I'll email you the section of the FSM.

[redhorse64]

Cool,Sorry to be such a Nag dude.I emailed ya.

Today, I actually made some progress, after working almost 5 hours OT at work and coming home at around 1PM.

Re-installed the Timing Chain Cover & Valve Train Cover. I don't really have time at this point, as I want my car to be on the road by Friday or Saturday at the latest:1) I chose to RTV only just on the front surface of the Cylinder Head, and not the bottom mating surface, where the Head Gasket is on top of the bottom Timing Chain Cover.2) And I chose to just RTV Half-Holes in the front & back of the top of the Cylinder Head.

Then, I saw the UPS guy drive up. WooHoo. New HardRace Motor Mounts, right on time! I jacked her up and removed the old ones, and let me tell ya, the driver's side mount came off in 2 pieces. Once I installed the new motor mounts, like Day & Night! I can't even shake the motor around now at all.Huge difference!

Oh yeah, a Transmission Mount came along with. Anyone know what point to jack up at, to install that one?

Tomorrow, Onto re-installation of the Pulleys, Belts, New Alternator, Power Steering Pump, Fans & Shroud, Radiator, and Stabilizer Bar & New End Links for it, that Advance Auto should have received by morning. Also gotta put back all the hoses, wires, Intake Air Tube, and New Radiator Hoses, if they arrive.

So, a full day ahead, when I get home from work that is......Hehe.

Later,RedHorse64.

[180fan]

hold the transmission up where ever is clever. I usually hold it up by that little nub that's sticking out at the bottom. Use a block of wood if you're paranoid.

If you're putting the top end back together, should I even bother hittin you up with the head gasket sections? I mean you're gonna have to tear down the front of the engine again anyway along with the chain and so on to do the head gasket...

[redhorse64]

Hi,When you say "that little nub", do you mean the square shaped box looking thing, just after the transmission support that I am attempting to replace?

As for the Head Gasket Job Guide, I may still have to do it, but I am going to wait and see if all the stuff I did resolved the problem.And basically, I am mostly concerned with the details along the way while removing it, like how to get all the stuff off in the back of the Head, and especially how to make sure that I put all the stuff back correctly aligned.

As I said, the Chilton's Manual is very very vague & the pictures & diagrams are not very good either.... I really need to find a good FSM for myself.

Well,Gotta run.Later & thanks,Jeff.

[180fan]

Jeff, you got mail.

[redhorse64]

Cool,Thanks alot.

In reference to replacing the transmission Mount:When you say "that little nub", do you mean the square shaped box looking thing, just behind the transmission support that I am attempting to replace?

Thanks again,Jeff.

[180fan]

yep.

[8-bit]

I have a rebuilt head that has like 40k on it. PM me if you wanna buy it

[redhorse64]

Well,All back together.Got it all back together on Saturday.Put the Pulleys, Belts, New Alternator, Power Steering Pump, Fans & Shroud, Radiator, New Radiator Hoses, Stabilizer Bar/New End Links, and all the hoses & wires back on where everything goes.

180fan,Thanks, I used that little square nub that looks like it is actually probably made to be a jacking spot. Anyway, just applied enough pressure to it to support the transmission, removed all the nuts & then removed the crossmember. I think the transmission shifted a little, as it was a little hard to line the crossmember back up, but I put the new transmission Mount on the crossmember and got it back up on there successfully.Huge difference, by the way. The old transmission Mount was broken on one of the 2 sides, not to mention the New transmission Mount is attached by rubber on 3 sides. Now, When I start the car, I can really feel the motor running inside the cabin like never before, so the transmission & Motor Mounts must have been broken for a long time.....Maybe as long as I have owned the car (1999).

8-bit,Thanks for the Cylinder Head offer, but it looks like I may be ok for now.

So, as I said, all back together. I filled the Radiator & Overflow Resevoir with a 50/50 mixture of Antifreeze/Water. I put the cheapy oil in & the cheapy filter on, ran it until it warmed up, and drained/removed it all. Then, I put the Mobil 1 EP in and a New Oil Filter as well. Warmed it up and all seemed fine, runs great, with no white smoke coming out the back.

However, now if I leave it running for any more than a warm-up, it is overheating. I have to check my manual for where the Thermostat is, I guess.... I was pretty sure I put everything back where it goes, electrically, but I double-checked anyway. I don't think it is the Water Pump, as it is Brand New and looked fine out of the box. In fact, I remember spinning it and making sure it turned on both sides before I installed it.

I suppose it is possible that the Thernostat is bad or has a bad connection, so I guess I will try to locate that.

Can't imagine what I may have did wrong to cause this, as it didn't ever overheat before I took it apart.........

Anyone have suggestions?

Later,RedHorse64.

P.S.: Merry Christmas!
Modified by redhorse64 at 5:30 AM 12/25/2006

[redhorse64]

Well,I read my Chilton's Manual, read some postings around here, and decided to replace the Thermostat & attempt to purge all air out of the coolant system.

No help. Jacked up the front of the car, used the bleed valve on the coolant outlet, ran the heater at MAX.....even attempted to fill radiator with cap off and engine running.

In the end, nothing is working.....It keeps overheating!

The Electric Fan is coming on & off when it seems like it is supposed to. I know there shouldn't be much to this system, but I just don't understand what could be going wrong.

Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks,Red.
Modified by redhorse64 at 11:47 PM 12/27/2006

[redhorse64]

I read somewhere that the STANT Thermostats are not good.That is the type I purchased, at $12.

How about if I run the car with NO Thermostat to see if it is Overheating without the Thermostat?

And if it works, would it hurt to leave it that way? I mean without a Thermostat. Or should I go buy the cheaper $6 Thermostat?

Tomorrow will be 2 weeks that my car is unuseable.

Later,Red.

[180fan]

Test thermostats before putting them in. Did you also make sure that the little wiggle valve thing was pointed up? That will make bleeding air out of the system alot easier.

[redhorse64]

Well,I removed the Stant Thermostat, put the Inlet Elbow back on without any Thermostat, filled the coolant system back up, and ran the car without any Thermostat.

Runs fine & does not overheat at all. Actually the heater works good too. It does take a little longer to warm up the car from cold, but that's ok for now.

I went to Advance Auto & ordered an "OEM Exact Replacement" Thermostat and I guess I will install it when I get it.

Thanks you guys for all the comments and advice.

Take care,Red.
Modified by redhorse64 at 1:03 AM 12/29/2006

[redhorse64]

FYI,When I received the new OEM Thermostat I installed it and have no trouble since. But more importantly, at the advice of a local Radiator Repair Shop guy, I filled the system with 50/50 coolant, from the top hose. Yes, by removing the TOP HOSE at the radiator end & filling the system that way, then putting the hose back on without loosing too much coolant, AND THEN using the little Air Purge Screw, I was able to get all of the air out of the system.So, all is fine now & running great.Sorry it took a while for me to get back here and post the final results.

Thanks again to all the people who provided advice,Red.