Possible limitation on brake pads - important if you visit the track.

[Potomac-Greg]

The current Car & Driver magazine includes their "best track car" competition, and they basically wrecked a brand new 370Z because of (their claim) a brake failure. The way they describe it, the brakes got hot and the pedal went soft. They went off track and slammed a wall.

The indicated that Nissan attributed the failure to brake pads that were optimized for low dust and low noise, and recommended a switch to a track-oriented pad. This is pretty important (if true).

But I have reason to doubt this. If a brake pedal goes soft, it's because the hydraulic system is breached. Either there's a fluid leak or the fluid has boiled. Neither of these things relate to the brake pads UNLESS the pads somehow transmit more heat to the rotors and then the calipers. Brake pads can overheat and stop generating friction, but the brake pedal doesn't go soft -- you just don't stop.

I guess this is something to keep an eye on.

[AZhitman]

Right. It's true that if the pads transfer too much heat to the fluid, it boils, creates air bubbles (which compress, unlike fluid), and the pedal goes soft.

Blaming it on the pad compound isa very small part of the problem - The pad compound, with insufficient "bite" will require more brake pedal pressure, which in turn generates more heat, which creates the situation described above.

They failed to expound on the whole problem.

Nissan's brakes have sucked since 04... In 03, a G35 Coupe with Brembo package had a shorter stopping distance than a Z06 - What happened?

There's actually a good article in C&D or MT a few months back about this - Nissan got SLAMMED on their brake performance.

Low-dust / low-noise pads are for retirees in LeSabres, not performance cars.

I love the Ferodo 2500DS pads for the G, by the way - Great track and street performance.

[Potomac-Greg]

Right. It's true that if the pads transfer too much heat to the fluid, it boils, creates air bubbles (which compress, unlike fluid), and the pedal goes soft.

Blaming it on the pad compound isa very small part of the problem - The pad compound, with insufficient "bite" will require more brake pedal pressure, which in turn generates more heat, which creates the situation described above.

They failed to expound on the whole problem.

Nissan's brakes have sucked since 04... In 03, a G35 Coupe with Brembo package had a shorter stopping distance than a Z06 - What happened?

There's actually a good article in C&D or MT a few months back about this - Nissan got SLAMMED on their brake performance.

Low-dust / low-noise pads are for retirees in LeSabres, not performance cars.

I love the Ferodo 2500DS pads for the G, by the way - Great track and street performance.

I'm glad you took your position. My original post probably got to defensive of Nissan. I'm with you on favoring performance over aesthetics. I do love the dustless brakes on my G37, but I'd never go on track without a major pad upgrade. (I use Hawk HT-10s on my 944 but would use Hawk Blue if I took anything as heavy as the G37 on track.)

To understand the manufacturers' dilemma you have to hear the AMG story. AMG makes no-compromises cars, and when they make a car that can go 175 MPH all day long, they will make it so it can stop from 175 MPH all day long. Well, the typical US AMG buyer is buying for show not for go. They quickly find that their AMG has squeaky brakes. Their Jag never squeaked! Their Lexus didn't squeak! So dealers were flooded with complaints. What's worse, JD Power and Consumer Reports showed multiple complaints for these cars. So what's the solution? For the US market, brakes were downgraded to a simpler, more reliable format with the obvious loss of braking power.

[AZhitman]

That's not limited to AMG.

03-04 G35 6MT were affected as well.

People FREAKED the HELL out and complained to the dealer (and Infiniti Corporate) when their pads lasted 10K miles and made noise.

But rather than try and EDUCATE these knuckleheads, Infiniti extended the warranty and included pads.

I look at it this way: My a$$ (and my wife and kids) are in that car. If I need to make a panic stop, that extra 6-12-18-24 feet of stopping distance is CRITICAL.

If I don't have that, my dead a$$ isn't going to care if I had brake dust on my wheels.

This applies to tires too: I buy the stickiest compound I can afford. If they wear out sooner, dandy. I can buy new tires, I can't buy new kids.

Nissan needs to pull it's collective head out of its collective a$$ and put some damn brakes on these cars that aren't designed for ease of maintenance and clean wheels.

EDIT: On a side note, I'd rather drive a 3-star crash test safety rated car that can do 60-0 in 117 feet than a 5-star rated car that takes 139 feet to stop. WHY aren't they considering accident avoidance capability?

[/RANT]

[PyR0NiAk]

Interesting thread... I find it amusing that you bypassed your own language filter...

[AZhitman]

Sometimes, it annoys even me.

[PyR0NiAk]

Maybe you should remove it.

[AZhitman]

It's under consideration.

Lots of changes coming in January - You guys are gonna be amazed.

[PyR0NiAk]

Looking forward to it...

[Potomac-Greg]

Interesting thread... I find it amusing that you bypassed your own language filter...

Crash tests should be run in a way that factors in braking, not just damage as a result of impact at XX MPH. Like you said, if I get stopped in 120 feet, 5 feet short of a tree, but some "safe" Volvo would have stopped in 140 feet, well that's 15 feet into the tree!

But the crash test methods together with "dumb" owner surveys drive makers to do stupid things. The good news is that for the few enthusiasts, there is an aftermarket.

[AZhitman]

Yep.

A guy at work was yapping on and on about his mileage warranty on his new tires, some retarded number like 80K miles.

I told him that was stupid and he may as well cut his brake lines, proceeded to explain coefficient of friction, tire composition, treadwear numbers and how they relate to stickiness and traction, and how that affects braking...

Showed him some tests that showed an 8-foot differential in stopping distances between two different tires.

He says, "Big deal - 8 feet is half the length of my car."

I said, "Yep. But if that 8 feet begins at my car's door, you just punched a 4-foot hole through the OTHER door. Thanks for ending my life to save yourself a couple hundred bucks."

[chasracer]

Had this happen to me a number of years ago. Used a lower grade "dustless" pad and on heavy braking, pads overheated, boiled the fluid and the brake pedal was on the floor - not a good situation. Once the temperature came back down, the pedal restored but it was more than a few uneasy seconds trying to get the vehicle slowed down and stopped.

When I pulled the pads (mind you they had maybe less than 1000 miles on them) the first 1/16" or so of the pad material looked like charcoal. I put a heavy duty semi-metallic pad on and never had another issue.

[ayilar]

If a brake pedal goes soft, it's because the hydraulic system is breached. Either there's a fluid leak or the fluid has boiled. (...) I guess this is something to keep an eye on.

The June issue of C&D revisits the Nismo braking issue, and concludes (as you had guessed) that the issue likely stems from too little air being directed to cool the brakes.

[PyR0NiAk]

4 month old thread but at least you were somewhat informative with your revival. How did you even find this?

[ayilar]

How did you even find this?

My other half wants to replace her 2005 C230K. Stick, good looks, real leather and a "reasonable" price are non-negotiable, so the strongest contenders are the G37S and the Audi A4 6MT. She and I both like the G, but a road on which we often drive requires many strong stops (switchbacks). The brakes on my C350 are often hot when we make it home in light traffic (higher speeds), but fade has never been an issue.

After reading the long article in June C&D, I had questions re: the G37's brakes (since the hardware, though perhaps not the ducting, seems to be the same) and started looking online. I found this thread, and decided to revive it. I thought readers would like to know that C&D staffers think that the Z's ducts do not convey enough cold air to the brakes, and that a possible reason is the search for better Cd and fuel economy

I'd be grateful for any further input you may have re: fade resistance and brake cooling on the G.

[PyR0NiAk]

I'm not a G guy, but I'm sure if you search through the G forum, you will find more info than your brain can store.